Why I think our brains are so powerful [Archive] - Green Grass Forums

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THClord

03-12-2008, 08:25 AM

The brain is an incredible thing, I think everybody agrees. The most fascinating part to me is how we are able to do complex tasks 100.0000% correctly in times of sudden danger with absolutely no time to prepare.

I started longboarding just over a year ago. I'm pretty good at it, but I can't do anything crazy. When I'm about to fall, however I can do the craziest shit ever. It's like I wouldn't have thought in my wildest dreams that I could do the things that I do.

Ex. I'm going down carving a hill when my rear wheels slip. So my board is suddenly perpendicular to the way I'm going, and I'm going fast. I actually rode the board standing on it while sliding all the way until I slowed down enough to simply jump off. For the record, I can't even slide my board even a bit normally.

Also, when I fall I coordinate every single part of my body so perfectly that it amazes me. Every time I get out of a fall that could have easily broken bones without even a scratch. I do not know when I could have possibly learned to do this.

Is this simply an example of our brains' huge power? Maybe, but I think there's more to it. First, I strongly believe that our brain is a quantum computer. That would explain our brains' huge power. But let's think bigger. A property of quantum mechanics is that if two particles were once connected, after that if you act on one particle, you act on its pair instantly even if it is across the universe. This would explain telepathy. Maybe when I was about to fall on my board, my brain telepathically communicated with all my friends who longboard, and this allowed me to do stuff I normally wouldn't.

Also, a lot of people have the "start singing a song randomly, turn the radio on and there it is." I think it could easily be telepathy, one of your friends must've been listening to the same station.

Maybe we are telepathically communicating with our friends all the time, we just don't know it. If telepathy is real, this would make sense evolutionarily. One person possessing a whole group of peoples' knowledge in times of danger is a huge evolutionary advantage. Actually let me rephrase it. If telepathy is real, and evolution is real too, it would be plain stupid if we didn't use telepathy a lot.

What do you guys think about all of this? Does anyone have some cool thoughts to expand upon this topic?

Kottonmouth_Dude

03-12-2008, 08:59 AM

hey man i think u have been smoking a little too much...

JK JK!! its NEVER too much to stop.

i know what u mean that some how we can communicate with other without even know it.
like for example some times me and my dad work together nd when we are on the freeway and he is about to start a subject to talk about i had already thought about the same exact thing like 5 minutes before. and viseversa.

its sum crazy shit.
oh like when u are about to call someone randomly and right before u press dial either they txt u or are calling u at the sme time.
i get that a lot!

quick fact. did you know that the average human only uses about 15 % of their brain??!!!??!!!!! meaning we still have another huge 85% to explore.

rebgirl420

03-12-2008, 09:08 AM

WhiteWindica

03-12-2008, 05:55 PM

Our brains are very powerful. I mean it's so precious. That's why I try to keep it away from harmful substances but still expand my mind at the same time with the good :). But yeah the brain has infinite capabilities. It's amazing, some of the individuals we have living and their mental abilities.

Nation_1ne

03-12-2008, 06:07 PM

Since the brain has different sections to it to achieve different tasks, surely that means that we do infact only use a small percent of the brain for thought processing. However, that's not to say the rest isn't in use, it's just being used for other things like bodily functions. Is that right?

stinkyattic

03-12-2008, 06:19 PM

Our brains have to be powerful to make up for our weak furless, clawless, scaleless, unarmored, venomless, hornless, non-winged, fangless, non-fire-breathing bodies... :D

ghosty

03-12-2008, 08:01 PM

quick fact. did you know that the average human only uses about 15 % of their brain??!!!??!!!!! meaning we still have another huge 85% to explore.

That's a false fact... it's actually about the other way around, we use most of our brains, and there is still some left unexplained and unexplored but it's far less than the amount we actually use.

Innominate

03-12-2008, 08:26 PM

Just imagine everything that has been created by the human brain.

Your brain needs plenty of water.

Coelho

03-12-2008, 10:27 PM

Well... while the scientists may have proven that we use our entire brain (what i doubt VERY much), still remains the fact that we only use a very small range of all our mind possibilities. Most people dont live a brain-challenging life... in fact, most people lives a very routine life, doing the same things the same way... and while the entire brain may be used for doing this simple tasks, surely the brain is not being used at its full capacity... i would say everyday tasks uses about 1% (or less) or our total processing capacity... its like someone who has the newest computer but uses it only to play mp3... while this same computer could be used to heavy math simulations, extremly detailed graphics games, etc, and all it at the same time...
Or... we use our entire body to walk... but it doesnt mean that we are using all our body capacity when walking... we can also jog, or run... which also uses the entire body, but it uses more of our body capacity.

To the OP... i think when we are in sudden danger we are far more skillful because we are very concentrated in what were doing. When youre almost falling from your board, the only thing you want is not to fall. You dont think about anything else... so all your mind in concentrated in not falling, and thus you do what seems to be incredible feats... but they are simply the result of extreme concentration in what youre doing.
In fact we people can do things far beyond we believe. But what lack us is concentration. Our minds are like "drunk and horny monkeys, jumping from branch to branch"... we cant sustain any thought much longer than some seconds... soon, very soon other thoughts appears to compete with it, and soon our mind was taken away by other thougts... and thats why usually we are just "average" in the things we do... cause we are not concentrating enough in it.
Concentration is the key for everything. All the things called "psychic powers" are just result of great concentration, of thinking only one thought during a long time, without allowing any interference.
There is a lot more to be said in this subject... but i think is already long enough. Maybe later... :stoned:

Alexico

03-13-2008, 03:48 AM

ldg420

03-13-2008, 03:54 AM

mind over matters what matters........:stoned:

dragonrider

03-13-2008, 06:32 AM

quick fact. did you know that the average human only uses about 15 % of their brain??!!!??!!!!! meaning we still have another huge 85% to explore.

As other members have pointed out, this is not completely true. We always use 100% of our brain. During everyday activities, we use about 15% of our brain power to perform those everyday functions, all of the remianing 85% is put to use thinking about sex.

affasd

03-13-2008, 06:36 AM

your brain is useless if you cant smell, hear, see, taste or feel. Imagine if you were born with no senses what so ever, then you wouldnt even have a concouis or anything because your concouis is the brains interpetation of sensories. Just need to get that approved to take a baby and tear its eyes out and rip out its tung, cut the nose off and give it pain killers. Then we can really find out what happens when a human does not even have any senses at all

ya or what if just put it in one of those sensory deprivation chambers and fed it through tubes and shit.......haha it would probly look fucked up when you took it out

dragonrider

03-13-2008, 06:42 AM

Coelho

03-13-2008, 07:12 AM

During everyday activities, we use about 15% of our brain power to perform those everyday functions, all of the remianing 85% is put to use thinking about sex.

Well... i think its actually true for we men... but i dont know if its also true for women... unfortunately. :p

FreshNugz

03-14-2008, 01:27 PM

Did you know that your brain goes through 7 different process steps when making a decision? Even a simple questions posed to you, like, do you like pizza?..your brain goes through 7 steps and then you have your answer. I remember that from Gr. 11 psych...trippy eh?

chocochoco

03-15-2008, 11:05 PM

Also, when I fall I coordinate every single part of my body so perfectly that it amazes me. Every time I get out of a fall that could have easily broken bones without even a scratch. I do not know when I could have possibly learned to do this.

I don't think your mind telepathically uses all your friends information to not fall :stoned:

BUT, I do think we have databases of stuff we didn't create or learned, maybe they come pre-installed in our minds from the collective unconscious of all beings :)

partcleguy

03-16-2008, 12:09 AM

Hey, this is actually a subject I'm very interested in. If you didn't see my post, I'm going to grad. school for neuroscience. Now I don't want to put down anyone's beliefs, but I'll lay down some cool things I've learned.

As far as our brain's being quantum computers, you're pretty close to what our brains are really like. Although we don't calculate things at an atomic level, like a quantum computer, our brains work in a parallel processing manner (with some tasks serial). I mean we have dozens of processes going on at the same time in perfect concert to create the illusion of consciousness. This is a hotly debated topic, but I believe the syncing up of all our incoming sensory information and planning for the future at the same time is what we call consciousness.

One interesting thing about consciousness, that supports my former belief, is that there is no center in the brain to which all information goes to. There is really no start or end in the connections of all the cells in the brain, it makes a kind of neural net.

Each cell can make up to around 8,000 connections. You start with supposedly (no one has really counted) 100 billion neurons at the height of puberty. You can imagine how big the number of potential connections there are in the brain.

Each second (after puberty) you lose an average of 5,000 neurons to automatic cell death processes (to prune unnecessary connections/neurons).

The brain can use up all of its "resources" and be around 100% processing load at least for some specific tasks. For example, try reading and talking about a different subject. Its basically impossible because you only have a limited capacity for your "inner monologue" (I forget what its called).

Can't think of any more at the moment...

SantaClawz

03-16-2008, 12:16 AM

CanaDanKs Inc.

03-16-2008, 12:56 AM

your brain is useless if you cant smell, hear, see, taste or feel. Imagine if you were born with no senses what so ever, then you wouldnt even have a concouis or anything because your concouis is the brains interpetation of sensories.

What if....by not having those senses...you would see life as it really is? Without filters...

Or what if, your brain took over and created false information to compensate for the senses. Now that could be wild too :jointsmile:

Coelho

03-16-2008, 11:47 AM

Your brain can actually slow relative time in tense situations. They did a test with a digital number board, in which the numbers were flicking by too fast too see under normal conditions, but for the first time bungie jumper it was easy to distingish the sequence. What is actually happening it you are seeing faster then normal, kind of like a video card, normally you get 32frames per second, but overclocked you get 60fps. This is also why people in tense situations report it feeling like it took place longer then it actually did. Time is just a chemical reaction within the brain anyway.

I think its the same thing that happens when we smoke and the time seems to slow down... :stoned:

What if....by not having those senses...you would see life as it really is? Without filters...

Or what if, your brain took over and created false information to compensate for the senses. Now that could be wild too :jointsmile:

Man... thats deep... :stoned: and the worst part is that i understand what you mean... :stoned:

chocochoco

03-16-2008, 06:11 PM

Or what if, your brain took over and created false information to compensate for the senses. Now that could be wild too :jointsmile:

Google "isolation tank" :)

This is a hotly debated topic, but I believe the syncing up of all our incoming sensory information and planning for the future at the same time is what we call consciousness.

That certainly is part, if not all, of consciousness. Very interesting... :jointsmile:

Innominate

03-16-2008, 06:37 PM

Sometimes you can actually feel how large our planet is.

partcleguy

03-16-2008, 08:38 PM

Sometimes you can actually feel how stoned other people are^^^^

Haha good stuff :thumbsup:

OntarioToker69

03-16-2008, 10:02 PM

The other dat I was reading about The strain Great White Shark,
and thought to myself,"wouldn't it be sweet if my club got that?"
The Next Day as I went to make a Purchase,They had Great White Shark!
odd.....:thumbsup:

phatsesh101

03-17-2008, 02:20 AM

you guys should watch that movie the secret itll trip you out

Spoken Word

03-17-2008, 04:27 AM

Yes, the human mind is an incredible thing.

dragonrider

03-18-2008, 06:36 AM

CanaDanKs Inc.

03-18-2008, 06:44 AM

Your superpowers are truly amazing...

Sorry for being off-topic here,

but hey there dragonrider! haven't been on in a while...good to see you are still here. So, whereabouts in Ca are you, by the way?

And about the quote...Now that I think of it, OT69, may I have your autograph, man?

dragonrider

03-18-2008, 06:53 AM

Hey CanaDanks!

I am in northern CA, around the Bay Area. I grew up in San Diego, so I know some of the areas where you have done your adventuring, but I don't get down there much, except maybe once a year to visit family.

couch-potato

03-18-2008, 07:55 AM

BTW Kotton, your wrong. You use your whole brain. Thats jst a myth that you only use part of it. :)

Urban Legends Reference Pages: Ten Percent of our Brains (http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percent.asp)

The myth originated from a study that concluded that the average human uses 10 - 15% of their brains at any given time. Now, if we were constantly using the full 100% of our brains at once... well things would happen.

maxsuperdanks

03-18-2008, 02:24 PM

The myth originated from a study that concluded that the average human uses 10 - 15% of their brains at any given time. Now, if we were constantly using the full 100% of our brains at once... well things would happen. I believe that human brains are quantum devices, able to tap into the energy around them. The average human uses 10 - 15% of their brain, and I feel they use the same amount of their perceptions, and are only aware of 10 - 15% of what's going on. At 100 percent at all times, a human could and probably would learn quite a bit, and would be able to perceive every viewpoint and outcome.

marijuanavillebilly

03-19-2008, 09:33 PM

I believe that human brains are quantum devices, able to tap into the energy around them. The average human uses 10 - 15% of their brain, and I feel they use the same amount of their perceptions, and are only aware of 10 - 15% of what's going on. At 100 percent at all times, a human could and probably would learn quite a bit, and would be able to perceive every viewpoint and outcome.

sorry dude, but the truth is humans use about 85-100% of their brain. (depending on the situation)

it may not be noticeable but the next time you sweat, get thirsty, get hungry, feel pain, feel any sensation at all, that your brain had to go and find the memory of those things by itself without being asked, just doing it, and giving it to your body in a matter of milli-seconds.

your brain has the ability to delay certain sensations, such as pain, but only when absolutely necessary will it do this.

your brain is constantly doing minor and major adjustments to your body, keeping you alive, so if im using 10%, how do i survive doing math problems?

Coelho

03-19-2008, 10:22 PM

sorry dude, but the truth is humans use about 85-100% of their brain. (depending on the situation)

Well... even if we use our whole brain (what i doubt very much), it does not mean that we are using it at its full capacity.
It may be like a factory with with lots of workers and very few work to do. Everybody may be working, but each worker can be working very slowly, chatting a bit, having a coffee, smoking a joint...

it may not be noticeable but the next time you sweat, get thirsty, get hungry, feel pain, feel any sensation at all, that your brain had to go and find the memory of those things by itself without being asked, just doing it, and giving it to your body in a matter of milli-seconds.

your brain has the ability to delay certain sensations, such as pain, but only when absolutely necessary will it do this.

your brain is constantly doing minor and major adjustments to your body, keeping you alive, so if im using 10%, how do i survive doing math problems?

Well... while it is indeed an amazing work our brain does, still it is not everything that our brains can do. It is only a very small part of all our possibilities. Most of our brain skills we dont even know we have.
When we are babies, our brains have its full potential. Then, during our growth and learning, we start to use some areas of it, which are related to the things we learn to do, and stop to use other areas of it, which are not related to the things we learn to do. So, what we learn when were childs is what defines which areas of our brain we will keep using, and which areas will be "turned off" due lack of use.
So, when we are adults we are masters of using only the parts of the brain we learned to use, and think its all our brains can do.

dragonrider

03-19-2008, 11:29 PM

If we didn't use most of our brain, we wouldn't have it. It is a very expensive organ in terms of it's energy use, nutrition needs, and the many years it adds to our maturing to devlop it. If we didn't need it, evolution would have got rid of it.

I think it is sort of like the engine of your car. You don't drive around at flat-out, maximum power, with your engine redlined all the time. But if your car didn't need the extra power that it takes to accellerate and to drive fast when necessary, the engineers would not put it in. Why pay for the extra power and fuel consumption if it's not needed?

Also, like an engine, your brain is not capable of maintaining its maximum capacity all the time. Have you ever had to do long stretches of intense brain wrok? It is exhausting.

And I'd like to know how these scientists come up with the idea that you only use some small percentage of your brain. Do they mean you only use that much for conscious thought? Do they mean when you are just sitting around doing nothing except breathing and digesting or when you are doing calculus? How do they determine what the maximum capacity is, and how do they determine how much you are using? Say I am doing something that uses all the brain power I am able to muster, like an intense calculation of some kind, is that what they call the maximum? Or do they still call that only 15% because not every single neuron lights up on the CAT scan?

I have a feeling this statistic is something that a scientist used to describe one specific kind of measurable brain phenomenon, and people have taken it out of context to suggest that we aren't developing our minds the way we should.

Mr. Clandestine

03-19-2008, 11:41 PM

The brain is a fascinating organ. Everything from split-second reaction times to fight-or-flight instincts are hardwired, and even if you've never been confronted with a fight-or-flight scenario, your brain will instinctively know what to do should the need ever arise.

I ride motorcycles, and anyone who's a fellow rider knows that things can happen in a fraction of a second that could mean the difference between life and death. I've had idiot drivers swerve across FOUR lanes of interstate traffic in apparent attempts to knock me off my bike, yet in less than a second, I instinctively knew to jam the brakes or punch the throttle just in time to avoid a collision. Same story with animals running crossing my path, elderly drivers pulling right out in front of me, potholes, etcetera. When I see these things, my initial reaction is to panic and freeze up, but then my brain takes over and makes me lean the bike to one side or the other, and narrowly escape disaster. Been riding some sort of motorized bike since I was 10 years old, and been riding sportbikes for nearly 10 years now. Only one wreck to date, which was my fault, and a gazillion close calls/near misses... and counting.

Cool thread, by the way.

dragonrider

03-19-2008, 11:46 PM

Mr. Clandestine

03-20-2008, 12:05 AM

Be sure to wear a helmet, otherwise if you get in another accident, you may only end up being left with 10% to 15% of your brain (which is apparently enough by some estimates).

LMAO! Helmet laws are mandatory in my state, and even if they weren't, I'd still wear my full-face helm and riding jacket (which resembles blue anatomical body armor) everywhere I go. After living in Florida for several years, where there are no helmet laws, I've seen what happens to human skulls that smash into the pavement going 70+ mph... as you can probably imagine, it ain't pretty. I think any biker who doesn't adorn a helmet before he rides is only using 10%-15% of his brain, anyway.

vej33

03-20-2008, 01:10 AM

anybody interested in this thread should pick up a copy of "The Accidental Mind", it's an amazing book about why the impressive concepts of the brain are nothing more than evolutionary ice-cream scoops, just building up on past developments.

Like intuition... if you close your eyes and someone holds something out in front of you, there is a high percentage that you will find it with your hand on the first try. This is an archaic type of "sight" that our early early early ancestors had, I'm talking swimming boogers ancestors.

It's really quite an amazing book.

and ps...on the whole "we don't use more than 10-15% of our brain", as far as I've understood it that's only slightly true... we utilize all of our brain, but we don't use more than 10-15% of it at a given time.

Apparantly if we used all of the parts in our brain simultaneously, the firing synapses would send us into seizures. We've been set up with a brain that we are physically incapable of utilizing to it's full potential. Funny. :)

Coelho

03-20-2008, 02:19 AM

Well... for example: some people know how to play a musical instrument, or juggle things, or speak another language, or do math, and some people dont. Everybody (presumably) can learn to do this things, which are controled by different parts of the brain.
This parts are there in everybodys brains. The difference is the ones who knows how to do this things are using this parts of the brain, while the ones who dont know are not.
I had some teachers that used to say that the brain is much like a muscle... if you exercise it, it becomes stronger and you can use it even more. But if you dont exercise it, it becomes weak and easily tired.
Being high is another example. Im sure when were high our brain is using different parts of it, parts that are not usually active when were sober, and thats why when were high we notice several things, we realize things, which we would never do if we were sober.
Also there are several people who has "psychic" abilities... and much of them were normal people who learned it, (there is courses of it), what shows that the ability to do it was already into their (and presumably everybodys) brains, just waiting to be used.
So, i think when they say we only use 15% of our brain they mean we only use 15% of our total possibilities, 15% of everything we would learn to do with our brains.
And if it were what they mean, i would think its a very high estimate... im sure our brains are FAR more powerful than that. Maybe this 15% refers only to the abilities they know, instead of all total possibilities...

maxsuperdanks

03-20-2008, 04:44 AM

sorry dude, but the truth is humans use about 85-100% of their brain. (depending on the situation)

it may not be noticeable but the next time you sweat, get thirsty, get hungry, feel pain, feel any sensation at all, that your brain had to go and find the memory of those things by itself without being asked, just doing it, and giving it to your body in a matter of milli-seconds.

your brain has the ability to delay certain sensations, such as pain, but only when absolutely necessary will it do this.

your brain is constantly doing minor and major adjustments to your body, keeping you alive, so if im using 10%, how do i survive doing math problems?

All of the functions of living are controlled by a very very small portion of the brain, by the back of the head and brain stem. Nothing more. Many animals have ONLY this. Heart beat, breathing shit of that nature.

The other lobes and smaller sections only control small parts such as the 5 senses(very very basic general psyche even teaches this)

The rest of the cerebral cortex contains a vast array of information we just can't or don't tap into all at once. We may be using bits from every section of the brain all at once, but it's not working to it's full capacity all the time, not even close. But we use 85-100 percent of it's possible functions, but not to their fully possible functionality.

Gorlax

03-21-2008, 01:17 AM

Wow that was something to think about.

My theory is less complex then that. I just saw a special on the Human body on discovery channel, and that shit explains alot. Most of your responses are due to chemical reactions and releases of hormones when the body feels its under stress or danger which can be instantaneous.

In your long boarding issue it is actually the release of adrenaline probably. Which made you react faster and handle your situation.

Wikipedia -
Epinephrine is a "fight or flight" hormone, and plays a central role in the short-term stress reaction. It is released from the adrenal glands when danger threatens or in an emergency. Such triggers may be threatening, exciting, or environmental stressor conditions such as high noise levels or bright light (see Fight-or-flight response).

An example of noise-induced trigger of epinephrine release is tinnitus. The fight-or-flight response caused by tinnitus is a contributor to physical stress seen in tinnitus-patients,[4] exacerbating the case.

Barney Trouble

03-21-2008, 02:45 AM

Think or Thwim » Jill Bolte Taylor Describes What It Was Like To Have a Stroke (http://thinkorthwim.com/2008/03/13/jill-bolte-taylor-describes-what-it-was-like-to-have-a-stroke/)

Really good presentation on what happened with her brain while having a stroke

Xyz505

03-21-2008, 02:50 AM

Barney Trouble

03-21-2008, 02:53 AM

Innominate

03-21-2008, 03:37 AM

human8

03-21-2008, 03:49 AM

brain≠mind. I think that the mind functions outside the brain-time. Intuition is thru the pineal gland which is hyper dimensional
and not limited by time, hence it's psychic ability to us.

dragonrider

03-21-2008, 05:51 AM

stinkyattic

03-21-2008, 11:52 AM

daihashi

03-21-2008, 03:02 PM

Just imagine everything that has been created by the human brain.

Your brain needs plenty of water.

I water my brain daily. I feed it molasses and FF nutes :thumbsup:

iTokethings

03-21-2008, 03:02 PM

today i was txting my m8 to see if he wanted to get drunk
just as i clicked send i recived a message from the same m8 asking if i wanted to get drunk :D

the other day i was going to go to get a pizza but didnt have the money
then a m8 came roudn with the exact pizza i was planning on getting

i dont understand how the brain works atall
i mean how am i thinking?
my brain is just fleshy muscle shit :stoned:
its like my finger being able to think for itself?

artificial intelligence..i understand, its a computer that takes notice of things and rememberes them for future reference
human intelligence..i dont understand

its all a game :D

o yeah
also
the way chemicals effect our brain :hippy:
How extacy can make you want do dance, talk and feel friendly

at the end of the day its me who usually decides these things but a ittle chemicle can over ride my normal thoughts

if you ask me the alcohol is the strongest drug..drink enough of it and you end up naked in front of all your friends, up a tree, in a police cell, in bed with your sister!

o yer ive gone of the sumbjecty lol

but yer the brain is weird :D

daihashi

03-21-2008, 03:05 PM

What if....by not having those senses...you would see life as it really is? Without filters...

Or what if, your brain took over and created false information to compensate for the senses. Now that could be wild too :jointsmile:

like synesthesia?

maxsuperdanks

03-21-2008, 03:18 PM

Maybe the government controls YOUR mind... (I hope not, for the government's sake) but your brain is the only thing that can keep you free. You might consider practicing using it.

I love people who perpetuate the ideal of "it's good to be a dumbass"

Because I like to perpetuate Natural Law.

So I help those who'd fall under their own stupidity fall faster.

Kbrandon

03-21-2008, 03:57 PM

our brains contain more neuron connections then stars in the universe...

And i think our brains are similar to a computer brain because i think we observe and experience things in the world but our genes and biochemistry can determine how we react to them.

Kbrandon

03-21-2008, 03:59 PM

i also believe plants are intelligent.. they have fellings too just like us only difference is they dont have eyes noses or ears to sense the world with..

daihashi

03-21-2008, 05:28 PM

i also believe plants are intelligent.. they have fellings too just like us only difference is they dont have eyes noses or ears to sense the world with..

Now that seems a little silly. Plants don't even have a cerebral cortex let alone the complicated limbic system which is influenced/controlled by the hypothalamus through the secretion of a hormone called GnRH.

I might be slightly off but that's the basic gist of it. That's like saying an amoeba has emotions. heh :smokin:

dragonrider

03-21-2008, 05:59 PM

Some people will be lucky if they ever become as smart as a plant.

Mr. Clandestine

03-21-2008, 06:06 PM

Some people will be lucky if they ever become as smart as a plant.

:S2:

I think I'm one of those people, my plants are constantly 'outsmarting' me, routinely forcing me to change my growing habits...

Nation_1ne

03-21-2008, 07:03 PM

SnSstealth

03-21-2008, 08:23 PM

yes brain is important but i rather be a little less smart and smoke marry jane because ur brain is useless in a hitler world government controls everything and its just pointless in being smart unless u want the thing thats root of all evil is money and ever worse greed.

Gov't doesn't control MY mind...maybe you fit in with the rest of the sheep, and know it. Thats worse than ignorance...thats like the guy on the matrix that told them where neo and morpheus were to get put back in the matrix...i guess ignorance can be bliss....and the reference to ignorance and MJ, well thank you for making the gov't point about MJ....

:smokebong:
whisekytango

Barney Trouble

03-21-2008, 08:39 PM

If I can add another obscure reference from the matrix...when Morpheus explains the definition of "real" being completely arbitrary and solely dependent on electrical signals being interpreted by the brain. It's essential true in essence, look at many of the mammals on earth that cannot observe the world by perceiving visible light.

Coelho

03-21-2008, 11:23 PM

Now that seems a little silly. Plants don't even have a cerebral cortex let alone the complicated limbic system which is influenced/controlled by the hypothalamus through the secretion of a hormone called GnRH.

I might be slightly off but that's the basic gist of it. That's like saying an amoeba has emotions. heh :smokin:

Well... i think to say the awareness is caused solely by the brain is a bit precipitate, even if it is the usual viewpoint of todays science. I think what we call awareness is afected by the brain, but not caused by it. So, wouldnt be impossible to brainless beings to be aware, even if their awareness were completly alien to us.
Remember that during the middle ages people (and even the "scientists" from that times) didnt believe that the diseases were caused by invisible microorganisms, just because "it would be impossible that could there be such small living things", and because, after all, they were invisible.

If I can add another obscure reference from the matrix...when Morpheus explains the definition of "real" being completely arbitrary and solely dependent on electrical signals being interpreted by the brain. It's essential true in essence, look at many of the mammals on earth that cannot observe the world by perceiving visible light.

Man... thats absolutely true. Its one of deepest realizations anyone can have... everything we see, everything we touch, everything we hear... its all into our brains, and only there. The world only is as we see for us. If we could enter the brain of a dog, for example, we would percieve the world in a completly different way, but as real as we call our world... real is what we take for being real. But in fact, nothing is absolutely real, cause how everything look like depends on the eye of the beholder.

daihashi

03-22-2008, 12:45 AM

Well... i think to say the awareness is caused solely by the brain is a bit precipitate, even if it is the usual viewpoint of todays science. I think what we call awareness is afected by the brain, but not caused by it. So, wouldnt be impossible to brainless beings to be aware, even if their awareness were completly alien to us.
Remember that during the middle ages people (and even the "scientists" from that times) didnt believe that the diseases were caused by invisible microorganisms, just because "it would be impossible that could there be such small living things", and because, after all, they were invisible.

Of course everything is aware on some level. Plants are aware of lights, air, soil in their environment, pests. However that was not the original argument. The original argument was that plants have feelings. Which is a complex function of the brain.

Show me a study or research article stating that plants have feelings.

We can prove that animals have a sense of fear, anger etc etc. Plants on the other hand do not.

Plants do not have the higher level functions needed to make emotions possible. To argue that plants have emotions is like saying definitively the sky and ocean are blue because the earth feels like it; when in actuality the sky and ocean are blue due to the shorter wavelengths of light that are unable to penetrate the atmosphere properly and getting trapped in gas particles causing them to reflect in all directions thus making the sky blue.

I feel that if people are going to make such far fetched claims they should back it with some sort of research and try to reference where they found the data to support their claims; otherwise it's all just fairy tales made from heresay.

khronik

03-22-2008, 01:38 AM

That's actually pretty accurate. I took a biorobotics/cybernetics class where we learned a lot about how our brains work, so i'll see if I can contribute. :)

Your brain is divided up into a bunch of lobes, each which perform different tasks. This is where the idea comes from that you only use 10% of your brain. At any given time, you're only using a small part of your brain, but over the course of your life you use all of it. It's a lot like a house, in that you use every room, but most of the time, any given room is unoccupied.

But on the topic of brain speed, when your brain is stimulated a lot, it can speed up to about 40 Hz, although usually it's more like 12 Hz, and when you're asleep, it's a lot lower. But as far as the mechanism that your brain uses to operate, that's actually very well understood. You learn when your neurons strengthen the connections between them, and the way that neurons communicate with each other is rather simple. But you have trillions of neurons, with each one connected to thousands of other neurons, so the complexity of the whole system is astounding.

Your brain can actually slow relative time in tense situations. They did a test with a digital number board, in which the numbers were flicking by too fast too see under normal conditions, but for the first time bungie jumper it was easy to distingish the sequence. What is actually happening it you are seeing faster then normal, kind of like a video card, normally you get 32frames per second, but overclocked you get 60fps. This is also why people in tense situations report it feeling like it took place longer then it actually did. Time is just a chemical reaction within the brain anyway.

Kbrandon

03-22-2008, 02:20 AM

jimmy8778

03-22-2008, 02:33 AM

at any one point in time im sure im using no less that 50% of my brain, this comes from nothing but i do feel that to be true, and by "me using" i mean, it is what is focused on what i consider focusing on something. As in typing this, thinking this in my head, and thinking about the music playing on my computer and the humming of my laptop, the light on the right of me, the slight pain i feel, and the tapping of my keyboard keys. And i feel that no more than 50% of my brain is concentrated on my functioning. that part of me which controls the heart, and other unvoluntary muscle movements, including those which occur due to my current motions, like moving my toe, or the movement of my fingers to type, and those caused from the changes in body posture which keep me erect and not falling. So i feel that at any one time there is somewhere between 50 and 100 percent brain usage, and that the amount is not measured in mass of useage, or connections, but it is used in the fact that about 50% of my actions are concious on some level, and 50% are, and while it may not seem like it, only a fraction of that 50% is something that im aware of at any one moment in time, and that is the part which is what i think with, that includes inner dialogue and memory tasks. so please, everyone, have at how im wrong.

khronik

03-22-2008, 03:27 AM

at any one point in time im sure im using no less that 50% of my brain, this comes from nothing but i do feel that to be true, and by "me using" i mean, it is what is focused on what i consider focusing on something.

Yeah, it might feel like you're using most of your brain, but are you really? I mean, what about the part of your brain that remembers how your grandma's fabric softener smells, or the name of your second grade teacher? Although I have to admit, when I'm stoned I can "feel" my brain working too. ;)

Coelho

03-22-2008, 04:00 AM

Of course everything is aware on some level. Plants are aware of lights, air, soil in their environment, pests. However that was not the original argument. The original argument was that plants have feelings. Which is a complex function of the brain.

Show me a study or research article stating that plants have feelings.

Well, man, in this case im sorry. I meant the plants are aware, not that they have feelings like humans do.

We can prove that animals have a sense of fear, anger etc etc.

Can we? I think we wont never ever know how an animal actually feels like. We only can see their "outside" reactions. When we see a dog moving its tail, we infer that its happy. But we cant actually know how the dog is feeling inside its dogs mind. We can only infer, only make assumptions based on their behavior compared with our behavior. But we can not assume that the animals are feeling the same things we humans feel, that the animal emotions "feels like" human emotions.

Plants do not have the higher level functions needed to make emotions possible.

Indeed... plants cannot have human-like or animal-like emotions. But if we assume they have awareness, who knows how it feels like to be a plant?

I feel that if people are going to make such far fetched claims they should back it with some sort of research and try to reference where they found the data to support their claims; otherwise it's all just fairy tales made from heresay.

Well... unfortunately i cant back up my "fairy tales" with any scientifical research, as todays science still is not developed enough to research such things.
But if you or anybody else has curiosity about from where i, a scientist (physicist) learned and had my mind made to believe such things, look at:

The Art of Dreaming (http://www.prismagems.com/castaneda/donjuan9.html)

It can seems absurd initially. But if you take your time, think about it for long enough, and keep an open mind free from any preconceptions, everything will start to make sense.

SnSstealth

03-22-2008, 04:28 AM

coelho

But we can not assume that the animals are feeling the same things we humans feel, that the animal emotions "feels like" human emotions.

you ever seen a beaten tortured dog? they have fear. call it fight-or-flight if you want but its semantics.

db:smokin:

jimmy8778

03-22-2008, 05:43 AM

Yeah, it might feel like you're using most of your brain, but are you really? I mean, what about the part of your brain that remembers how your grandma's fabric softener smells, or the name of your second grade teacher? Although I have to admit, when I'm stoned I can "feel" my brain working too. ;)

i have felt my brain working whilst high, and it is an awesome feeling, though if i think about it, i can imagine a sense of something if i think about any part of my body, including my brain. But on to the other part of what you said, when it comes to the "smell of grandma's fabric softener" my brain has made neural connections that when i sense the smell of the softner, the electrical impulses from my nose race through my brain, lighting up the "memory" of the smell and i recognize it, so at any one point in time im not thinking of my second grade teacher or grandma, but if i put a process to it, i become aware of their existence and the downy scent of g-ma, but only because i become aware of their existence, before i read your post, it wasnt a thought on my mind, but it was a path in my brain, so it wasnt used so much as stored in my brain. but it is a good point to bring forward, how do we consider usage, the amount of stored memories plus our current output, or just the memories/connections, or just the output, its a line which i drew for myself, how about for you.

khronik

03-22-2008, 05:53 AM

I never really understand why people argue about whether animals have emotions. Of course they do. Emotions come from our most primal instincts, and it stands to reason that at least other mammals would have them.

Coelho

03-22-2008, 06:22 AM

coelho

you ever seen a beaten tortured dog? they have fear. call it fight-or-flight if you want but its semantics.

db:smokin:

I never really understand why people argue about whether animals have emotions. Of course they do. Emotions come from our most primal instincts, and it stands to reason that at least other mammals would have them.

Well... i dont meant that the animals havent emotions. Only that we cant know for sure how they feel, with their animal minds, their emotions. Note that im speaking of the subjective experience of the emotion.
Is the same problem, how can i be sure that i see, lets say, the green color the same way any of you do? I see a color that was said to me that was called "green". And everybody else sees also this color, and calls it "green". But my question is how can i be sure that the "feeling" of green, that undescritible (does this word exist?) sensation my brain "feels" when it sees the green, the subjective perception of it is the same?
Or in other words, if i were able to enter other persons mind, to see the world as they see, does the green would look like the same as it looks like for me? Or, what i call green other person would see as blue, but call it green (cause they learned that color was called green)?
Thats what i mean about the animals emotions. I dont doubt they feel. But i still think its questionable to think they feel it like we do.

hatch

03-22-2008, 08:30 AM

I don't Know if it has been mention, I'm Ambidextrous {using both hands with equal ease}, So I use both sides of my Brain, Where Right Handed people us there Left-side Brain, &^<> or Left Handed peolpe use Right-side Brain:cool::wtf::wtf::D:D

That's My 2-Cent's,/`~`\/`~`\/`~:smokin::smokin:

daihashi

03-22-2008, 03:29 PM

Well... i dont meant that the animals havent emotions. Only that we cant know for sure how they feel, with their animal minds, their emotions. Note that im speaking of the subjective experience of the emotion.
Is the same problem, how can i be sure that i see, lets say, the green color the same way any of you do? I see a color that was said to me that was called "green". And everybody else sees also this color, and calls it "green". But my question is how can i be sure that the "feeling" of green, that undescritible (does this word exist?) sensation my brain "feels" when it sees the green, the subjective perception of it is the same?
Or in other words, if i were able to enter other persons mind, to see the world as they see, does the green would look like the same as it looks like for me? Or, what i call green other person would see as blue, but call it green (cause they learned that color was called green)?
Thats what i mean about the animals emotions. I dont doubt they feel. But i still think its questionable to think they feel it like we do.

I've already covered this. Generally most people do perceive or feel things the same way.

People who have their perceptions mixed up or their senses. For instance. They may see the color green. The color green to us is the color green. But to them when they see the color green they may feel fear, joy, or see the number 2. This neurological condition is called synesthesia.

Animals have a hypothalamus and a limbic system just like we do. Studies show that the same/similar areas of the brain are responsive to different emotions with the secretion of the GnRH hormone as the animals go through their emotions.

With that said, I can no better perceive an animals sense of fear than I know what fear feels like to you. Earlier you stated that we can only perceive animals feelings from the outside. This is not true. We can see this in a lab environment as well. If you were saying the average Joe Shmoe at home can't truely tell then I suppose you're right.

Point being, Animals have emotions due to higher level brain functions in the hypothalamus/limbic system. Plants do not have this ability.

daihashi

03-22-2008, 04:02 PM

well neither does a venus flytrap...

i was watching something on i dunno if it was history channel or mythbusters or sumthin.. but they were trynna see if the plant had feelings so they hooked it up to some electrode and made a guy stand in front of it and think about harming it... and as soon as he did the needs started to jump...

it was amazinggg..

you seem to have forgotten to mention the part that it was in an old bomb shelter and the results were inconsistent. So they moved the expierement outside with NEW sensors and did not get any results.

Grant said the most convincing evidence to support the myth came from the same organization that he was a member of.

Seems to me that there is room to be biased and in science and discovery you have to be a neutral party.

Really the results were inconclusive at best. I would not trust mythbusters to conduct a complex expierement to determine if a plant has feelings. There's more to it than measuring needles on a polygraph.

Remember it's just a TV show, and with all things on TV it's meant for our entertainment.

jimmy8778

03-23-2008, 02:24 AM

i agree with coelho about the color thing, infact its a thought that ive had floating around, and have tried to explain whilst high, and failed, and tried to explain while sober, and failed, and decided i will continue to think it. I agree i mean, i see a color ive been told is blue, and you see the same object, and call it blue, but who says what i consider blue if i were you would look like what blue looks like to me, what if your blue was my purple, we will never know, and the attempts to use science in the form of the radioactive spectrum doesnt work because the colors still look that way to you, and youve associated the name of that color to the color that you see, and accept that the world looks that way. As far as anyone knows, when i see the world it is really inverted from you, but i still call the sun yellow, and the grass green.

WaZ

03-23-2008, 03:20 AM

As far as I've seen, there is very little evidence suggesting our that brains are quantum computers or that quantum entanglement explains intuition, etc.

The human species is an adaptation of genetic material that already existed on this planet. We are great apes. As such, our brain physiology is quite similar to chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans (we share many of the same structures and layout). Our brains even function in the same ways (studies have revealed that ape brains react to intent and not simply the immediate environment in front of them). Apes can be taught a lexicon of over 200 symbols and form correct sentences with them. One of the main differences showing up in recent studies is the unique human ability to use the brain as a tool for planning the future. Apes can complete complex mazes more quickly than humans, which demonstrates an ability to grasp the concept, hold the idea in one's mind, navigate the maze (plan the future), and then make the connection between all these activities and actually, finally, draw the sequence. This kind of test shows that ape brains have the capacity to form complexity, all the pieces are there, they simply don't use them, the dots haven't been connected yet in their genes. This is a helpful perspective when trying to understand the power of the human brain.

One must understand that we humans are, above all else, genetic material. As with any organic, living entity, it is the utmost important imperative of survival that drives us. Our minds are capable of great intellectual feats, to be sure, but our instincts are rooted in survival. Your muscles are powerful enough to tear themselves apart from bone, thus temporarily destroying themselves. Your brain unconsciously regulates the appropriateness of varying degrees of force. In a life-threatening situation, survival instincts dictate that harm in the now to preserve future life is more important than that temporary, possibly crippling, risk. Most people aren't aware that they can lift as much as a trained athlete, but only under the right circumstances. This is because muscles are designed to store energy at all times, so there is always a reserve to call upon in times of need.

The brain is compartmentalized for specialization. While everyone shares a similar structure responsible for things as speech and counting, no two brains are identical in physical locations of where these processes occur. In tests done on brain surgeries of conscious individuals, and attempts to map areas of the brain, it has been found that the location for, say, being able to speak a thought will be millimeters or even centimeters away from where your or my brain handles such a function. In fact, it has been found that the brain devotes specific physical regions to nothing more than storing categories of things; there is an area for storing lists of "tools" and a physically separate area for storing lists of "flowers," and in no two people is the map of these locations identical. Obviously, a large portion of our brain is devoted to labeling things into categories and storing those relationships for later. We are good at picking out patterns and shapes from random noise to the extend that we see faces in almost anything. We look for, even crave, patterns.

The brain can control what we feel, in terms of sensations (obviously). Pain suppression is a prime example. Individuals whose profession demands a higher pain tolerance train their minds and bodies to be able to cope with higher levels of pain, to the extent that an average person would faint upon such intensity. Athletes are good examples. The physical process by which this is accomplished is understood: chemicals controllers that the brain uses can bind to receptors in the body, thus blocking pain signals from being successfully transmitted the entire length of ones nervous system into the brain, thus being dulled or not registered at all. Separate nervous systems control the unconscious and the conscious efforts of our minds, so that it is possible to both survive and perform mathematical calculations, and why breath and heart rate are not mentally tasking endeavors.

Of course, this tricking of the system can go both ways. One can see this clearly in the phenomena of phantom limbs. When someone suffers a loss of, say, a hand, the brain can deal with that loss in multiple ways: when it stops receiving feedback from that part of the body it will either "accept" the loss and block further attempts to register input from that region of the brain associated with that region of the body, or remap a new body part to the old region of the brain (so that if one were to touch your left leg, it could potentially be remapped in a way that, had you lost your right hand, your brain would interpret the touch on the left leg as having come from the right hand, and in effect cause you to still feel the full experiences of the limb that no longer exists), or finally occasionally cause severe pains that seem to emanate from the lost limb when in fact there is nothing physical to cause the pain. Each of these cases is a result of how the brain ends up dealing with that specific loss of input, and as you can imagine phantom limb pain is quite terrible, as no amount of physical efforts will ease the problem.

However, recent studies have found that if one can see one's own brain activity in real time on a screen, if shown what areas are responsible for what actions, one can consciously reduce the activity of that part of the brain, thus curing as much as 50% of the pain (50% also happens to be the standard amount of pain physical medications can reduce). Just by seeing your brain in real time, you can change how it behaves.

The idea that we use significantly less than our available brain mass is a confirmed falsehood. Yes, mental growth is a process of pruning unused skills and expanding useful skills. Very young children, for example, under the age of 6 months show an ability to recognize individual faces of apes. However, since almost all interaction with other animals in our daily lives involved humans, the brain always drops connections leading to facial recognition beyond our species. It simply isn't useful, but the capability exists. Even scientists who devote a lifetime to studying these animals cannot reach the level of recognition all of us have at one point in our lives. What we use the most is strengthened, and what we use the least is pruned. But the beauty of the brain is that, if one chooses to, many areas can be re-strengthened or expanded even if you've neglected them (a writer becoming a mathematician, for example).

This leads to interesting results: because the brain so completely controls the rest of our body, and how we perform in any task, one can strengthen one's body's ability to perform a physical task by doing nothing more than thinking about it. By thinking about an activity, the brain is using the pathways laid out for everything involved in that activity, including musculature control. One can actually slightly improve one's muscle mass by mental thought alone. Athletes who consistently visualize tasks that are difficult for them more quickly master those tasks. Mental exercises have, as a result, become increasingly incorporated into professional athletes' training. This is also how meditation can be used to control bodily functions normally below our conscious control such as heart rate.

We can know things about our brain in relation to time and other species, based on the evolution of this organ and comparisons to other animals with similar structures. Certain emotions, like fear and revulsion, are handled in older parts of our brain, suggesting that these base emotions were all we had at one time, and that as the brain developed new areas formed to handle an increasing scope of emotions. So we can say definitively whether or not other animals have emotions, because other animals haven't evolved the complexities of our brain, but they have enough structure to recognize the most base of survival instincts such as fear. Emotions are a part of the survival toolkit, and we're not alone in that regard.

Prodigies and those who are exceedingly talented in specific areas are still somewhat of a mystery. Van Gogh was thought to have a form of epilepsy that gave him frontal lobe seizures, the result being a more vivid interpretation of visual data input, causing him to create unique pieces of art. What do Nathan Haselbauer (IQ of 162, founder of the International High IQ Society) and Albert Einstein have in common? Both their brains are slightly smaller than average. IIRC, Recent studies have suggested that potentially as much as 50% of "intelligence" is inherited.

In the absence of stimuli, one's brain typically strives to create it. The brain is a processing facility for input, and without input it seeks out data to process. That is why in recent years we have begun to understand the true cruelty and detriment to a person that solitary isolation can bring (it is used as punishment in dealing with prisoners, etc). It can easily cause permanent mental damage, and in fact has been demonstrated to do so.

Also, recent evidence suggests that boredom is a result of an inability to concentrate. And one of the genes responsible for speech in humans has been linked to motor function in mice.

As far as comparing AI to human intelligence, one must remember that ours is the only intelligence we are aware of. As such, it is the goal of the field of AI to create a digital/computer version of our own intelligence. There really isn't much to compare, except in how poorly current AI is compared to our own capacity.

By the way, there is a $1,000,000.000 prize "to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event." (Challenge Info - James Randi Educational Foundation (http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-info.html)) Not needing the money or not being interested in collecting money is not an excuse for those who claim paranormal powers to not take this challenge - one can easily win the money and donate it to any charity afterwards. That fairly easily rules out "psychic abilities" until proven otherwise.

There is an autistic woman who "thinks like a cow." (BBC - Science & Nature - Horizon (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/temple.shtml))

As far as things being in the eye of the beholder... well. First, the goal of modern science is to create reproducible results. If I do something, get a result, ask someone else on the other side of the world to do the same thing, and they get the same result, and we keep doing this until we find that the result is universal for everyone... we've reliably created a way to define what happens as a result to a certain event or stimulus. One can argue that exactly everything is completely absurd on the basis that every human experience is inductive reasoning, but it is a framework inconducive to forward thought. Beauty, however, is a scientific formula. We are genetically predisposed to find symmetry beautiful, and this has been proven. That's why models typically have extreme symmetry (which is rare in nature). Doesn't necessarily imply every one of us has the same tastes, just that tastes can be genetic (which is obvious; rarely do people decide to switch to a diet of raw sand).

There are no nerve endings in the brain to sense pain, etc. You are experiencing the brain's capacity for imagination when "feeling" it under the influence of cannabis.

The color argument is simple: what is "blue" to me and to you are the same if our brains were trained to label the same eye/brain reaction to that wavelength of light in our childhood the same way and if neither of us has abnormally formed eyes (in the sense of random genetic mutation). The wavelengths of colors are very specific, so that unless you have radically different eyes from the rest of the species, you will sense the same kind of visual input as someone else with standard equipment would. It's all about the structure of the eye! The label of something isn't terribly important; what's in a name? The subjectivity of it is simply that we might use different labels for the same thing. And our eyes invert images of the outside world from "upside down" to "rightside up" as the data travels through the eye. To see things upside down is to see how they really are. An evolutionary fluke flipped it for us, possibly randomly, possibly because it allowed us to better cope with the world (although it is quite unnerving to see things upside down, research has shown that one's brain can easily adapt and consider it the norm in very little time, a few days, and that afterwards to see things normally is equally initially disorienting).

Because emotions are so integrated into our consciousness via their use as an evolutionary survival skill it is possible to form extremely strong connections between discrete stimuli (not talking about synesthesia, just the natural ability of our brain to produce extremely strong feelings), so that a person can experience synesthesia without the involuntary neurological condition. It is because our brains function so thoroughly through labeling and categorizing that it is rare on average, and why it is easily experienced under the influence of various mind-altering substances which bypass the natural flow of the brain and thus transcend the categorical barriers. That was a very McKenna-esque thing for me to say. :P

By the way, I watch way too many documentaries. I can list them if anyone is interested in recent brain research.

junior420

03-23-2008, 10:58 PM

if we use 10 percent of our brains imagine if u can use 100% of our brains. i think psychics use maybe 15 or more thats why there psychic, because maybe they use more percents of there brains. maybe the smartest man or god uses 100% of his brain...sorry if that was hard to read or understnad im bakes right now lol

khronik

03-24-2008, 05:53 PM

The Straight Dope: Do we really use only 10 percent of our brains? (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_028.html)

According to this, using 100% of your brain would result in a grand mal seizure, which is where all your neurons fire at once.

khronik

03-24-2008, 05:56 PM

By the way, I thought I'd mention that of all the genes we have in our bodies, a full third of them are expressed in our brains. Our minds are clearly influenced a great deal by our genetic profiles.

b0Ng h!tz 4 mE

03-24-2008, 08:21 PM

The brain is an incredible thing, I think everybody agrees. The most fascinating part to me is how we are able to do complex tasks 100.0000% correctly in times of sudden danger with absolutely no time to prepare.

I started longboarding just over a year ago. I'm pretty good at it, but I can't do anything crazy. When I'm about to fall, however I can do the craziest shit ever. It's like I wouldn't have thought in my wildest dreams that I could do the things that I do.

Ex. I'm going down carving a hill when my rear wheels slip. So my board is suddenly perpendicular to the way I'm going, and I'm going fast. I actually rode the board standing on it while sliding all the way until I slowed down enough to simply jump off. For the record, I can't even slide my board even a bit normally.

Also, when I fall I coordinate every single part of my body so perfectly that it amazes me. Every time I get out of a fall that could have easily broken bones without even a scratch. I do not know when I could have possibly learned to do this.

Is this simply an example of our brains' huge power? Maybe, but I think there's more to it. First, I strongly believe that our brain is a quantum computer. That would explain our brains' huge power. But let's think bigger. A property of quantum mechanics is that if two particles were once connected, after that if you act on one particle, you act on its pair instantly even if it is across the universe. This would explain telepathy. Maybe when I was about to fall on my board, my brain telepathically communicated with all my friends who longboard, and this allowed me to do stuff I normally wouldn't.

Also, a lot of people have the "start singing a song randomly, turn the radio on and there it is." I think it could easily be telepathy, one of your friends must've been listening to the same station.

dunno about telepathy but we do just have that natural instinct of avoiding danger, like saw survival instinct that old dood with cancer sure kno's his shit :thumbsup:

but yeah we are the most intelligent things known but considering how we're suppose to be so intelligent we still make stupid mistakes.. but i mean, how do you know other things cant communicate? like dogs or sommat lol

but i dont think a dog could build a house or a whole city or nowt lol :)

but yeah its great having a brain man'g :D

dragonrider

03-24-2008, 10:22 PM

dunno about telepathy but we do just have that natural instinct of avoiding danger, like saw survival instinct that old dood with cancer sure kno's his shit :thumbsup:

but yeah we are the most intelligent things known but considering how we're suppose to be so intelligent we still make stupid mistakes.. but i mean, how do you know other things cant communicate? like dogs or sommat lol

but i dont think a dog could build a house or a whole city or nowt lol :)

but yeah its great having a brain man'g :D

I don't know about telepathy, but I can levitate about an inch off the ground using only the power of my mind (and a toe).

THClord

03-25-2008, 06:50 AM

I don't know about telepathy, but I can levitate about an inch off the ground using only the power of my mind (and a toe).

Last night I could levitate items in my dream. It was really cool. I just checked, I can't do it now. :D It would be awesome though.

hatch

03-25-2008, 08:01 AM

Last night I could levitate items in my dream. It was really cool. I just checked, I can't do it now. :D It would be awesome though.

Take a few more Bong-Hit's `~^~` & try it again Gasshopper,,I think you can, I think You can, T think you can,~~^~~,nac ouy kniht I~~~~ May The Force Be With You~~~~~\/\/\/\/\/~~~~:rastasmoke::rasta::stoned::jointsmile::wtf::w tf::smokin::pimp:

dragonrider

03-25-2008, 08:09 AM

Take a few more Bong-Hit's `~^~` & try it again Gasshopper,,I think you can, I think You can, T think you can,~~^~~,nac ouy kniht I~~~~ May The Force Be With You~~~~~\/\/\/\/\/~~~~:rastasmoke::rasta::stoned::jointsmile::wtf::w tf::smokin::pimp:

The Force may help, but not this backward Satan-Speak! BEGONE, DEVIL!!!!

zero0ne

03-25-2008, 04:14 PM

THClord, I REALLY recoomend you either watch / listen / read some of Michio Kaku's stuff.

He talks a lot about parallel universes, AI, future civilization, etc etc etc...

basically everything that is right on the cusp of being proven. (string theory, etc)

good read if you are into that kind of thing, and your initial post seems to show that you would really like to read this stuff.

Now with regards to your first post, I don't necessarily agree with you on the thought that the human brain is a quantum computer (at least in our current definition of a quantum computer.) I do feel it is as fast or faster than any quantum computer we will have in the next 20-50 years (Mr kaku thinks that we will have a fully functional quantum computer in 20 years; basically when Moores Law breaks and Silicone cant take us any farther.)

Anyway, I feel that the brain is more of a Nueral network, I kinda visualize it like the internet, tons of different nodes that are all interconnected in some way, BUT the connections can change on the fly, and just like the way google ranks pages, I bet thats how the brain ranks information in your mind. (the more connections to some piece of information, the more important and easier to remember it is)

google does the same thing, the more links to your website on other sites, the higher your pagerank. The higher your pagerank, the easier it is to find and apply that data.

Have fun if you pick up one of his books, he is a really good writer.

dragonrider

03-25-2008, 04:46 PM

Last night I could levitate items in my dream. It was really cool. I just checked, I can't do it now. :D It would be awesome though.

Last week I learned how to do an illusion where I appear to levitate a few inches off the ground. I've used it to freak a few people out. It's not quite as great as actually being able to fly, but it still pretty fun. I will need to go to the Mutant Academy to devlop my superabilities...

Regarding the original question about the brain, I'm with Zero0ne and the others who don't think the brain is a quantum computer. I don't realy have the right vocabulary or technical knowledge to describe this, but as I understand it, quantum computers use the quantum states of particles for their calculations. So instead of having only two states ("binary" --- on/off or one/zero or yes/no) for each piece of the calculation, like you do in our current binary computer technology, you would have many more, because there are more than two quantum states for a particle. I hope I have that right. Anyway, quantum-based computer technology will yield much much more powerful computers.

I don't think the brain is a quantum computer, because I don't think the brain has a way to "read" or "set" the quantum states of particles. But I do not think the brain is a binary device either. It is something we do not fully understand yet. Part of the power of the brain is the extremely high number of complex connections in the neural network. And another part of its power comes from its biochemical nature --- I think each neuron can store more than two states because it is not simply on or off, it has a complex biochemical state.

Once our scientists develop the powerful quantum computer brain, it will have to fight it out for supremacy with our biochemical neural net computer brains in the final climactic battle between man and his abominable machine creations. Judgement Day! May the best brain win!

40oz

03-25-2008, 05:22 PM

Last night I could levitate items in my dream. It was really cool. I just checked, I can't do it now. :D It would be awesome though.

I love dreaming. When you think about it, in some cases dreams are just as real as reality. The only difference is that in your waking life your mind is responding to stimuli in your environment, and in dreams it is forming its own consciousness by using past experiences or memory and imagination (memory and imagination play a major role in our waking life as well. For example the idea of the world existing independent of your mind is a fabrication of the imagination) .

Dreams may make no sense, they may be ridiculous or "impossible", but so what? The emotions you feel in them are just as real as in reality. So really what separates dreams from reality besides the fact that dreams are all in your head? Reality is all just in your head too.

dragonrider

03-25-2008, 05:26 PM

Dreams may make no sense, they may be ridiculous or "impossible", but so what? The emotions you feel in them are just as real as in reality. So really what separates dreams from reality besides the fact that dreams are all in your head? Reality is all just in your head too.

You are right. But I spend a lot of effort trying to get reality OUT of my head!

40oz

03-25-2008, 05:40 PM

But I spend a lot of effort trying to get reality OUT of my head!

haha, well good luck with that. Reality IS your head, your mind. To think that existence is independent of your mind is completely natural and necessary for the survival of our species, but it is just in your imagination.

For example if you close your eyes you know that your computer is still in front of you even though you can't see it. You know this because throughout the course of your life when you closed your eyes and then opened them again, things remained relatively the same so your imagination lead you to believe that things still exist when you can't sense them. We can't logically come to this conclusion because everything we know about reality is based on what we can actually sense, so there is no logical proof for continued or independent existence. Our imaginations simply automatically make us believe this so we can assign a certain identity to objects and ourselves, so we can make sense of the world.

Its crazy to think about and hard to swallow, i know. I don't know how good a job I do at explaining it, but if I am unclear just let me know so i can try to explain it better.

dragonrider

03-25-2008, 05:58 PM

haha, well good luck with that. Reality IS your head, your mind. To think that existence is independent of your mind is completely natural and necessary for the survival of our species, but it is just in your imagination.

For example if you close your eyes you know that your computer is still in front of you even though you can't see it. You know this because throughout the course of your life when you closed your eyes and then opened them again, things remained relatively the same so your imagination lead you to believe that things still exist when you can't sense them. We can't logically come to this conclusion because everything we know about reality is based on what we can actually sense, so there is no logical proof for continued or independent existence. Our imaginations simply automatically make us believe this so we can assign a certain identity to objects and ourselves, so we can make sense of the world.

Its crazy to think about and hard to swallow, i know. I don't know how good a job I do at explaining it, but if I am unclear just let me know so i can try to explain it better.

I agree somewhat with you, the mind creates a model of reality with varying degrees of accuracy. All we really experience is the incomplete model. But I think "reality" is still out there, independent of your mind. There is an existence out there that your mind senses, but does not create. What your mind creates is the experience of the independent reality. And sometimes your brain also creates the experience of a reality that does NOT exist independently, like when you're dreaming, or hallucinating, or just plain wackadoo nuts.

40oz

03-25-2008, 06:33 PM

But I think "reality" is still out there, independent of your mind.

Ok, I want to believe this as much as the next person. How could you go about experiencing this "absolute" reality then? Or even explaining it. That would mean you would have to be able to make a general conclusion about a certain object based on a specific observation.

I try to convince myself there is an external existence and absolute truth all the time when I think about this. Wouldn't that be great to see things "as they truly are" instead of how you perceive them? I think when it comes down to it since reality is only what we can sense, and we are naturally inclined to attach an identity to perceptions that appear to be related to eachother (the computer remains the same computer even after you open and close your eyes) the idea of dependant existence seems too illogical to some people who assume that these identities are ones that are assigned by something other than their own mind by causation or cause and effect.

I think absolute reality or truth (if there even is one...which I doubt) can only be understood through careful and continuous observations of existence. And by continuous I pretty much mean never ending, or at least observations over a long period of time.

dragonrider

03-25-2008, 06:48 PM

Ok, I want to believe this as much as the next person. How could you go about experiencing this "absolute" reality then? Or even explaining it. That would mean you would have to be able to make a general conclusion about a certain object based on a specific observation.

I try to convince myself there is an external existence and absolute truth all the time when I think about this. Wouldn't that be great to see things "as they truly are" instead of how you perceive them? I think when it comes down to it since reality is only what we can sense, and we are naturally inclined to attach an identity to perceptions that appear to be related to eachother (the computer remains the same computer even after you open and close your eyes) the idea of dependant existence seems too illogical to some people who assume that these identities are ones that are assigned by something other than their own mind by causation or cause and effect.

I think absolute reality or truth (if there even is one...which I doubt) can only be understood through careful and continuous observations of existence. And by continuous I pretty much mean never ending, or at least observations over a long period of time.

Philosophers go around in circles on this topic all the time. I konw I have gone around in circles on this topic many times on these boards. It is a very intereting question.

The fact is, you are right, you cannot PROVE an external objective reality. I've decided it's an interesting exercise from a philosophical point of view, but it doesn't matter very much from a practical point of view. My BELIEF is that an external reality does exist, my senses detect it in a limited way, and my mind makes an incomplete model of it. That seems pretty much consistent with most of what I have read (although, I may have just made those books up in a totally imaginary world that is just a product of my pure, unnattached, independent mind, which floats alone in a vast nothingness).

40oz

03-25-2008, 07:06 PM

Philosophers go around in circles on this topic all the time. I konw I have gone around in circles on this topic many times on these boards. It is a very intereting question.

The fact is, you are right, you cannot PROVE an external objective reality. I've decided it's an interesting exercise from a philosophical point of view, but it doesn't matter very much from a practical point of view. My BELIEF is that an external reality does exist, my senses detect it in a limited way, and my mind makes an incomplete model of it.

I understand what you are saying and honestly half of me agrees with exactly what you believe, I am mostly arguing with you to develop my own understanding a little better, because a healthy discussion/argument is defiantly the best way to expand your mind.......besides of course the perception altering qualities of psychedelics, which is just as mind expanding.

I just can't help but notice the similarities in the ideas of existance being dependant on your mind and the product of causation with the the ideas of the ancient Buddhist teachings that say everything is relative and existance in inherently empty.

To me it seems more logical but at the same time more ridiculous that existence is not independent of the mind. My current reasoning leads me to assume that this is just because it is so hard to comprehend because our very sanity lies in the idea that the world exists independent of us.

That seems pretty much consistent with most of what I have read (although, I may have just made those books up in a totally imaginary world that is just a product of my pure, unnattached, independent mind, which floats alone in a vast nothingness).

haha, maybe you did.

dragonrider

03-25-2008, 09:11 PM

Another good way to test this theory is when April 15 rolls around in a couple weeks, don't send in your taxes. When the IRS contacts you, just tell them, "Taxes are not an independent reality! They are just a product of my imagination!"

Coelho

03-25-2008, 09:17 PM

By the way, there is a $1,000,000.000 prize "to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event." (Challenge Info - James Randi Educational Foundation (http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-info.html)) Not needing the money or not being interested in collecting money is not an excuse for those who claim paranormal powers to not take this challenge - one can easily win the money and donate it to any charity afterwards. That fairly easily rules out "psychic abilities" until proven otherwise.

Well... i believe in all the psychic shit, and yet im sure that nobody will win this prize.
James Randi was a VERY famous magician/illusionist/whatever until be eclipsed by Uri Geller bending spoons with his "mind powers". So after it obviously he became very bitter towards the psychic people, even if Uri Geller were not one of them, but only another illusionist.
But as he was a magician, im sure he knows a lot of this psychic stuff, and im sure he uses all his knowledge to avoid anyone to succeed when trying. There is several ways to make psychic "noise", psychic blocking and such, so anybody which were trying to do some psychic stuff would be hindered by him (or his assistants), to ensure they would not succeed.
If Randi is willing to give $1,000,000.00 as a prize, plus all the media repercussion it would have, is because he is sure that nobody will ever win the prize.

Obviously, a large portion of our brain is devoted to labeling things into categories and storing those relationships for later. We are good at picking out patterns and shapes from random noise to the extend that we see faces in almost anything. We look for, even crave, patterns.

Yes... since our earliest childhood, our brain is incessantly busy searching for patterns among all the data it recieves from its sensory input. It learns how to group lots of sensory data under labels, so instead my brain recieve a visual information like "red dot-red dot-black dot-black dot... (lines and lines of coloured dots) ... black dot... etc", it recieves an information like "small red sqare over a black background", which is far simpler to understand and process.
In fact, i would say our brains (or our Tonal) are (among other things) classification machines. They convert EVERYTHING in a list of labels (or concepts). For example, when i look to my right, for example, i see a lot of things, which into my brain are converted in something like:
Object#1 - Name: pillow - Where: over bed - Size: medium - Color - white, yellow, brown - etc etc
Object#2 - Name: bed - Where: on floor - Size: ... etc etc
So, instead of percieving the things as they are, we percieve them like a list of characteristics, or labels. Everything we percieve is only a list of labels. And now we arrive at the problem of the nature of the reality.
I dont doubt there is an objective reality independent of we humans, or of our minds. But this objective reality is not the "real world", "out there", just because what we call the "real, physical world" is only a list of labels into our brains.
When two or more people agrees that a thing exists and its "real", they are only agreeing that their brains have common labels for this thing. For example, me and a friend see a bong. We see it as glassy, a bit stained, large, etc. But the fact we both see it and agree with its characteristics dont make it real. It just mean that both me and my friend learned to percieve it the same way, so we give the same labels ("glassy, stained, etc") to it.
The "real" nature of the things, or rather, the most basic level of "reality" humans can percieve things is as energy. Everything is energy. Matter is energy (as proved by E=mc2). And energy is energy (obviously). So, energy is the basic level of the objective world, is of what the things are actually made. But we dont percieve the world as made of energy, because between it and us there is our brain, classifying the different manifestations of the energy, so instead we percieve it directly, we percieve just a list of labels.
This process of "labelization" of percieved energy is a learned skill we learn during our earliest childhood. So, a child learns to percieve the world as the other humans do. But this process is reversible. Through practice of meditation, mystical experiences, or use of some psychedelics, we can stop this process of labelization and percieve the world as it is, and its called "illumination", "enlightenment", "stopping the world", etc, which is described in several spiritual teachings.
BTW, i personally think our brains are not the source of our consciousness, but an intermediary between the physical world and our (non-physical) consciousness, much like our eyes are intermediary between the outside world and our brains. Our brains cant percieve light directly, so it need the eyes to convert light to electric impulses which it percieves.
And i would say our non-physical consciousness cant percieve the physical world directly, and thats why it needs our brain to do it.

Coelho

03-25-2008, 09:28 PM

And now i see i forgot about the dreams...
How can we be sure when we are awake or when we are dreaming? Like... for me we "know" we are awake because we remember all the times we were awake before, we remember all this times as a continuous thing, so we conclude that we are actually awake.
But if every night we had a dream where we could remember all the dreams we had before, exactly like we can remember all the things that happened when we were awake? How could we be sure that we were into a dream?
What if, every night, we dreamed we lived in another place, with another people, etc, and every night we dreamed with this same place, and with the same people, and remembered what we did in the day before? How could we know it was a dream? Or how could we be sure that this was not the "reality", and what we call waking reality were not only a dream in this (other) reality?

dragonrider

03-25-2008, 09:58 PM

I understand what you are saying and honestly half of me agrees with exactly what you believe, I am mostly arguing with you to develop my own understanding a little better, because a healthy discussion/argument is defiantly the best way to expand your mind.......

Sorry I can't go down this road with you right now, because I sort of exhausted myself on the topic. But it is a very interesting discusion topic. Coelho has posted some interesting ideas above already, and he is usually a great person to discuss this kind of thing with.

Coelho, I went looking for the thread about whether the past is real or not, and I couldn't find it. I was going to post a link, because it get's into these same ideas about objective and subjective reality. Do you know if that one got deleted in the big shakeup? I don't even remember what forum it was in, but maybe it was in one that disappeared.

Coelho

03-25-2008, 10:33 PM

Coelho, I went looking for the thread about whether the past is real or not, and I couldn't find it. I was going to post a link, because it get's into these same ideas about objective and subjective reality. Do you know if that one got deleted in the big shakeup? I don't even remember what forum it was in, but maybe it was in one that disappeared.

Here it is... fortunately it survived the "inquisitorial witches hunting" done in this boards...

http://boards.cannabis.com/spirituality/135104-does-past-real.html

:thumbsup:

40oz

03-25-2008, 11:51 PM

So, instead of percieving the things as they are, we percieve them like a list of characteristics, or labels. Everything we percieve is only a list of labels. And now we arrive at the problem of the nature of the reality.

Ok I agree with that......

I dont doubt there is an objective reality independent of we humans, or of our minds. But this objective reality is not the "real world", "out there", just because what we call the "real, physical world" is only a list of labels into our brains.

The "real" nature of the things, or rather, the most basic level of "reality" humans can perceive things is as energy. Everything is energy. Matter is energy (as proved by E=mc2). And energy is energy (obviously). So, energy is the basic level of the objective world, is of what the things are actually made. But we dont perceive the world as made of energy, because between it and us there is our brain, classifying the different manifestations of the energy, so instead we perceive it directly, we perceive just a list of labels.

I agree with you except where you claim there is an independent reality. You seem to understand that all matter is energy, so what is so hard to swallow the idea that existence is all a construct of the mind? Your mind arranges this energy to make sense of it, to give an identity or label to everything. Without the mind all we are left with is an endless abyss of energy, and energy itself has no mass, depth, color, or any other physical properties.

So independent of the mind, existence is nothing but energy. We ourselves are energy, our mind makes us consciousness of the energy around us and we assign identities to energy we sense so we are able to identify ourselves as a distinct and seperate identity from the rest of the energy floating around.

It is pretty generally accepted that we are able to become self aware because we are able to use symbols and abstract thought to interact. It is through this interaction that we come to view ourselves as unique individuals, as an "I". Humans are one of the few animals that are able to do this, and the only ones who can construct a complex self concept. If you put a dog in front of a mirror, it will not be able to recognize itself because it has no sense of I. It will either be indifferent or respond to its reflection as a separate entity.

This process of "labelization" of percieved energy is a learned skill we learn during our earliest childhood. So, a child learns to percieve the world as the other humans do. But this process is reversible. Through practice of meditation, mystical experiences, or use of some psychedelics, we can stop this process of labelization and percieve the world as it is, and its called "illumination", "enlightenment", "stopping the world", etc, which is described in several spiritual teachings.

Enlightenment, at least according to Buddhist and Hindu texts, deals mainly with understanding the emptiness of everything in existence and being able to be in control of your emotions instead of your emotions controlling you. The Bhagavad-Gita says "Nothing of nonbeing comes to be, nor does being cease to exist; the boundry between these two is seen by men who see reality". I believe that being means consciousness. Nonbeing is everything that is not conscious, or the external world. This only exists as far as some being is able to perceive it. Now I can't say I know a lot about enlightenment, but it seems to me that to be enlightened is to truly understand that what is perceived as a reality independent of the mind is an illusion.

BTW, i personally think our brains are not the source of our consciousness, but an intermediary between the physical world and our (non-physical) consciousness, much like our eyes are intermediary between the outside world and our brains. Our brains cant percieve light directly, so it need the eyes to convert light to electric impulses which it percieves.
And i would say our non-physical consciousness cant percieve the physical world directly, and thats why it needs our brain to do it.

Your right, our brain isn't the source of our consciousness, it is our mind. The brain is just a machine, it is physical, and physical things only exist if there is a consciousness to perceive them. Independent of the mind, what you consider the physical world is not physical at all, but a large mass of nothing but energy.

silkyblue

03-27-2008, 12:29 AM

ya'll r hammered !

Coelho

03-27-2008, 02:43 AM

I agree with you except where you claim there is an independent reality. You seem to understand that all matter is energy, so what is so hard to swallow the idea that existence is all a construct of the mind? Your mind arranges this energy to make sense of it, to give an identity or label to everything. Without the mind all we are left with is an endless abyss of energy, and energy itself has no mass, depth, color, or any other physical properties.

Well... energy does not just floats around aimlessly, randomly... its behavior is ordered enough to generate what we call "the laws of physics", as what we call the laws of physics are our perception and interpretation of the order that there is in this flow of the energy.
Also, it flows in such ordered way that it gives rise to awareness, and even consciousness.

So independent of the mind, existence is nothing but energy.

Exactly... and thats what i call the objective reality. The world of energy that exists independently of our awareness.
BTW, i myself think that energy is not the only thing that makes the world, but also information. I think information is the real "essencial substance" of the world, and that even energy contains (or is) information. But it is a highly speculative thought, so i cant give any proof or argument to it, yet.

Enlightenment, at least according to Buddhist and Hindu texts, deals mainly with understanding the emptiness of everything in existence and being able to be in control of your emotions instead of your emotions controlling you. The Bhagavad-Gita says "Nothing of nonbeing comes to be, nor does being cease to exist; the boundry between these two is seen by men who see reality". I believe that being means consciousness. Nonbeing is everything that is not conscious, or the external world. This only exists as far as some being is able to perceive it. Now I can't say I know a lot about enlightenment, but it seems to me that to be enlightened is to truly understand that what is perceived as a reality independent of the mind is an illusion.

Yes... but i dont think it disagrees with what i think. Energy can exist in the void. Energy is not only a shiny thread of light... a wave carries energy, and it can be dark, invisible, even unpercievable, and yet its there. So i think when the enlightened ones says "reality", they mean what we usually call reality, the physical world made of physical things, which is indeed an illusion, as it is dependent of the mind.
And... there is no need to be enlightened to control ones emotions... its far easier that reach enlightenment. The control of the emotions and behavior is called (in Castanedas books) Controlled Folly, and is a skill that is learned and practiced.

Your right, our brain isn't the source of our consciousness, it is our mind. The brain is just a machine, it is physical, and physical things only exist if there is a consciousness to perceive them. Independent of the mind, what you consider the physical world is not physical at all, but a large mass of nothing but energy.

Yes... some people calls it mind, some calls it soul, spirit, whatever... but surely its real, and also non-physical.
Also, i think "energy" is a general term... i think there are several "kinds" of energy... like the "physical" energy in the physical "plane", and also non-physical energies in the non-physical "planes", so our mind, soul or whatever would be made of non-physical energies as well.
(I wonder if my physics teachers heard me talking such things... they would be VERY disappointed... :p)

skunkape

03-27-2008, 06:04 PM

You guys ready to be blown away? Watch this lectue from a brain scientist who had a seizure and through that experience she learned in real time what happens when you experience a seizure and she learned first hand what happens when one side of the brain shuts down.

It is an intense lecture. I recommend you sit back and get ready to be blown away.

TED | Talks | Jill Bolte Taylor: My stroke of insight (video) (http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/229)

WaZ

03-28-2008, 09:25 AM

By the way, "religious experience" has been produced in a laboratory setting.

veggii

03-28-2008, 09:43 AM

If your brains are soooo powerful will you change the
federal schedule 1 on canibis!!and make it legal!!:jointsmile:

Trip06

03-28-2008, 10:09 AM

That was some tripy shit. Makes me think about how drugs affect the human mind, with "feeling one with the world and all" and how thats obviously chemical changes in the brain affecting the 2 halves in a certain way. Also how different ways of human existing can do this like the above mentioned budists and inlightend such people seeking states of mind like that through meditation and sensory deprovation.

Coelho

03-28-2008, 11:57 AM

By the way, "religious experience" has been produced in a laboratory setting.

Indeed... and Timothy Leary was among the ones who did it...
Interestingly enough, one of this experiments was made at 4/20... coincidence? :D:jointsmile:

Marsh Chapel Experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment)
Pahnke's "Good Friday Experiment" - Follow-up (http://druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/doblin.htm)
CSP - The Good Friday Marsh Chapel Experiment (http://www.csp.org/practices/entheogens/docs/young-good_friday.html)

WaZ

03-28-2008, 07:21 PM

There's also:
BBC - Science & Nature - Horizon - God on the Brain (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml)

gnarshred57

04-01-2008, 01:45 AM

i want to start a thread where we start a topic where everyone is totally blazed:stoned:

that would spark some great conversations :thumbsup:

Coelho

04-01-2008, 11:43 AM

i want to start a thread where we start a topic where everyone is totally blazed:stoned:

that would spark some great conversations :thumbsup:

Most treads here already are this way... :stoned::thumbsup:

There's also:
BBC - Science & Nature - Horizon - God on the Brain (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml)

Good text! Its nice to know that at last science is starting to accept the real existence of this states of mind.

SnSstealth

04-01-2008, 12:40 PM

i thought everyone on here was already blazed?...lol

:smokebong:
whiskeytango

Aly_G

04-02-2008, 07:22 AM

wow this is the most interesting thread I've found here lol haven't been on in months until now.

Anyway, after reading about all this I came up with this theory.. maybe what happens when we die is we dream eternallly? we create our "paraidise"? haha that would be cool.. can't really say it's foolish since I could say the same about Heaven & Hell or those that think nothing will happen when you die and everything it's just blank, or those that believe in reincarnation etc etc...

Also, have you guys heard about DMT? one of the most illegal substances in our planet yet it's generated by our brain when we go to sleep everynight , when we are close to dying and apparently in the early steps of the fetus creation. Some say it's what triggers I forgot what.. but it's in the pineal gland which If i'm correct is the part of the brain we are less knowledgeable about.

Other than that.. reality i guess we'll find out eventually.. a lot of people feel everyone is connected and some friends mentioned that after trips on shrooms. Telepathy, mind tricks.. like Criss Angel he blocks pain with his mind.. there's probably so much we can do with our minds.

Maybe 2012 we will learn how to do more with it?

my 2 cents.

Aly_G

04-02-2008, 07:53 AM

p.s. Interesting quote I found from reading Matrix quotes which are very interesting..

Agent Smith: Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization.

Coelho

04-02-2008, 09:51 AM

40oz

04-02-2008, 09:11 PM

Yes... some people calls it mind, some calls it soul, spirit, whatever... but surely its real, and also non-physical.

Is it real? Do people really have a soul? I am beginning to think the correct answer to that is no. What we consider to be our soul, our "I" , is really just a relation and collection of ideas. This relation of ideas produces an identity so that easy transition between other thoughts and ideas can be had. Basically your soul (identity) is discovered by your memory of past cause and effect relations.

I know this probably makes little sense, so bear with me through my attempt to give an example. Lets say a baby is born. This baby has no idea what it is or what is going on. The baby looks at its hands, legs, and torso. The baby realizes that he has control over all these things, and that they can move positions but they stay relatively the same, and attached. The baby can conclude then from what he is able to sense that these parts are part of him and he identifies them as such. PARTS of HIM.

Now the baby is put face to face with his mother. He perceives his mother with all his senses as she gently strokes his head. He realizes that his mother is not part of him, so she must be something else...but what? The baby glances over to his right and sees his father. Again the baby does not know what to think. What are these things? Are they related?

Now that the baby has gotten a good look at the room he is in he realizes that he is surrounded by unknown objects. The hospital bed, paintings on the wall, the wall itself, everything the baby can percieve, it is all unkown to him. He has not ascribed a specific identity to anything, barley even himself. Besides the fact that he seems to have control over a mass or sensory objects that sits right under his field of vision, he has no idea who or what he is. How then, is the baby able to distinguish one thing from the other? How can he assign anything an identity if he doesn't know what anything is?

The answer is the baby is able to assign identities to certain things based on 3 relations; resemblance, contiguity and causation. To explain a little, the baby can begin to identify his mother because when he looked back at his mother, after he looked away, he noticed the object he was looking at (mom) resembled the object he was looking at before he turned his head (mom). Each time the baby looked away, then back at his mother, she remained relatively the same. Maybe her body position shifted a little, but she remained relatively the same. This is where contiguity comes into play. Causation helped the baby to understand that objects can change appearance, but still be the same object. For example over time the baby will be able to recognize that the thing he is looking at is his mother even if she changes positions or adds makeup. The baby realizes that cause of these changes is related to the environment.

So how was the baby able to identify objects, and why would he want to? And what does this have to do with not having a soul? The baby was able to assign an identity to objects because his memory stored past observations of certain objects. Over time these observations grow and they all effect eachother. The baby is able to tell a wall from a person because they are not observably similar, and he is able to tell the difference between people because certain individuals remain relatively similar over time. He is able to identify a pizza as the same pizza even after 3/4 of it have been eaten because he understands there must have been some kind of cause to make most of the pie disappear.

Because the baby is able to assign a certain identity to everything, he is able to transition between ideas so smoothly that he doesn't even realize he is transitioning. For example, wave your arms in the air. Notice anything strange? Of course you didn't, your brain is so good at transitioning between sensed objects that you don't even realize that whenever you move your arm (or whenever you move period), you are creating a whole new form or object, a object that needs to be interpreted by your brain so it can still be identified... and identified it is, as your arm. Think about it. You sitting in that chair is a totally different object than you standing or walking away from the chair. Your brain makes this transition between those two forms smooth and without any gaps so that you can keep your identity, or what many people like to call a soul.

If you read down this far I am proud of you, and if you understand what I was trying to say, well then I love you. Not just because of how hard this idea is to grasp if you have never been exposed to it before, but also because I feel that I do a horrible job of trying to explain it. If you did read down this far and don't understand, please just ask me to clear things up where they are a little hard to understand and I will be happy to try to explain it to you a little better.

So is it so bad that we don't have a "soul" or some kind of invisible entity that represents our individuality? I don't think so. In fact, this whole idea just further extends my beliefs to the idea of everything being one single collective conscience. By one conscience I mean that we (all living things, not just humans) share one common bond, and that is the bond of life, of consciousness. This single consciousness is manifested in different ways in different organisms. In essence; I am you and you are me and we are everything. The only difference between one manifestation to another is the impressions that have been made on specific manifestations' brains due to our environments. We are all one consciousness experiencing itself in many many different ways.

Also, i think "energy" is a general term... i think there are several "kinds" of energy... like the "physical" energy in the physical "plane", and also non-physical energies in the non-physical "planes", so our mind, soul or whatever would be made of non-physical energies as well.
(I wonder if my physics teachers heard me talking such things... they would be VERY disappointed... :p)

But what is physical energy if there is no mind to perceive it? To feel it? It's just energy.

Gonzo54

04-03-2008, 09:56 PM

we actually use 100% of our brain, just at different times

Coelho

04-03-2008, 11:58 PM

But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from.

I think its very true... we even say "its too good to be true"... but i never heard anybody saying "its too bad to be true"... cause we actually think only bad things can be real, and the good ones are unreal... why does is so?
Whenever i tell people that is possible to live a happy and painless life, they think im a dreamer, and that i live in a world of fantasy. (Well... most of time im stoned, but it is not the issue here :p)
But its all in our mind... to be suffering or to be happy is much a matter of choice. One can choose a path that will make one happy, or one can choose a path that will make one suffer. The effort to choose is the same. But most people chooses the suffering path.
I wonder what Buddha would say about it...

Is it real? Do people really have a soul? I am beginning to think the correct answer to that is no. What we consider to be our soul, our "I" , is really just a relation and collection of ideas. This relation of ideas produces an identity so that easy transition between other thoughts and ideas can be had. Basically your soul (identity) is discovered by your memory of past cause and effect relations.

(...)

If you read down this far I am proud of you, and if you understand what I was trying to say, well then I love you.

Well... i did read, and did understand... and i love you too :p :D lol!
Anyway... after done some reading, i concluded my own concept of "soul" is very different from most peoples concept, which is what youve described.
So, i agree completly that the "usual" description of soul, which is what you described, is not real indeed, but as you said its only a relation of ideas.
What i call "soul", and maybe its what you call "mind", is the immaterial, non-physical "thing" that is "behind" the brain, recieving data from it, the same way the brain recieves data from the sensory organs.
It is not the "I", as it is a product of the brain, like you explained. Its something else. Its very hard to describe...
Some time ago i noticed that my mind was in fact two. One of them was the usual "I" we all have. The another one was what i could call my "true" consciousness, as it could percieve what i called "I" from outside... like if the "I" were a robot that my consciousness could control and interact with it, but without being involved in it... i noticed it when i was stoned, and felt like i was a bit "higher" than my body (actually higher, maybe one feet or so), and that i was not my body, and i was not my thougts. I was something else, which could observe my actions and thoughts... and this "thing" is what i call "soul".
Also, during some experiences with weed + (some unmentionable inhalant) for some instants i could only percieve the world, without being an "I"... like... i would see my room, i would hear the noises outside... but only to percieve. I didnt know i was a person, i didnt remembered anything, in fact i hadnt any thoughts... i only percieved the world around me. I hadnt any notion of time also... the only thing that existed was the present moment. There was not an "I" which were conscious that it was percieving. There was only perception. I think during this experiences i noticed clearly what was my "soul", and how it existed apart from thoughts and from the "I", and yet percieved the world.
Im sure what ive wrote is at least very confusing... but its the best description i can give.

Another thing... you mentioned the babies perception. I would like just to add that the perception of the world as we usually do (seeing the world in terms of solid objects) is a learned skill. A baby can percieve the world in inconcievable ways to us, as their brains were not conditioned to percieve the world the way we adults do. Through the socialization process, the child learns to percieve the world as we adults do, and when its old enough it forgets how was to percieve the world in another ways and thinks (like everybody else) the the way it percieves the world is THE only way to do it. But it is not. Through mind alterations like meditation, or use of psychedelics, we can percieve the world in other ways than the usual, and it shows the arbitrary-ness of our everyday worlds perception.

So is it so bad that we don't have a "soul" or some kind of invisible entity that represents our individuality? I don't think so. In fact, this whole idea just further extends my beliefs to the idea of everything being one single collective conscience. By one conscience I mean that we (all living things, not just humans) share one common bond, and that is the bond of life, of consciousness. This single consciousness is manifested in different ways in different organisms. In essence; I am you and you are me and we are everything. The only difference between one manifestation to another is the impressions that have been made on specific manifestations' brains due to our environments. We are all one consciousness experiencing itself in many many different ways.

Well... i already did read many ideas like yours... up to now i cant say if i believe or not in it. It makes sense, but i have not any personal experience which enable me to agree or disagree with it.
If my plans were sucessfull, maybe at 4/19 i will have an answer to it. (Im almost sure you know what i mean ;))

But what is physical energy if there is no mind to perceive it? To feel it? It's just energy.

Yes... and yet it moves the universe. Or rather, it is the universe. I believe we humans are not the only conscious beings. I believe there were another ones before us, and there will be other after us. And i also believe the universe itself exists with or without us. So, i believe the energy exists independently of we were aware of it. Or even its the energy which enables us to be aware of anything, including energy itself.

40oz

04-04-2008, 05:23 PM

Also, during some experiences with weed + (some unmentionable inhalant) for some instants i could only percieve the world, without being an "I"... like... i would see my room, i would hear the noises outside... but only to percieve. I didnt know i was a person, i didnt remembered anything, in fact i hadnt any thoughts... i only percieved the world around me. I hadnt any notion of time also... the only thing that existed was the present moment. There was not an "I" which were conscious that it was percieving. There was only perception. I think during this experiences i noticed clearly what was my "soul", and how it existed apart from thoughts and from the "I", and yet percieved the world.

I have felt this exact feeling, many times actually and all under the influence of certain psychedelic substances. The only one besides weed which I think I am allowed to talk about is salvia. I have had some of the most mind blowing experiences using that sage, and one of the most intense experiences was the first time I used it. A few seconds after I took the first hit, as I was still exhaling the smoke, I slipped into some kind of a cosmic daze which there is no possible way to describe in words. The last thing I remember is seeing my friend laughing at me, probably because I was drooling all over the place. Time at this point meant nothing to me, but I am guessing that after about 2 mins. I woke up from the cosmic haze and became aware of my surroundings again.

I was aware of my surroundings, but of very little else. I didn't know what I was, what I was doing, or even really what I was looking at and what it all meant. I just couldn't figure out what "this" was (by "this" I mean my awareness). I remember I sorta looked down and saw the chair I was sitting in, so I assumed that I was a chair (and this made perfect sense to me at the time). It took me a good minute or so to realize that I was a person, a person sitting down in a chair with a little group of friends around me. Just like the experience you described, for a few minuets I had no identity, no ego. I was just consciousness. It was a crazy feeling, and I think it offers a lot of insight into the workings of the mind.

Another thing... you mentioned the babies perception. I would like just to add that the perception of the world as we usually do (seeing the world in terms of solid objects) is a learned skill. A baby can percieve the world in inconcievable ways to us, as their brains were not conditioned to percieve the world the way we adults do. Through the socialization process, the child learns to percieve the world as we adults do, and when its old enough it forgets how was to percieve the world in another ways and thinks (like everybody else) the the way it percieves the world is THE only way to do it.

I'm glad you said something about the socialization process of babies. I omitted it from my example because I thought it would make the whole thing even more confusing for your every day average pot head to understand, plus it would have made my post another 3 or 4 paragraphs longer. The baby in my example would have been a super baby with the mental capacity of an adult, but with the blank mind of a newborn. Everything we know about socializing and making sense of the world has been set up by previously existing humans and passed on to us.

I think this is where the line between mentally ill and mentally sane gets fuzzy. Really when you think about it you only really consider a person to be crazy if their social patterns and cognition are different from your own or the norm. If you don't want to be institutionalized, you better think the same way as everyone else, or at least be good at fitting into social norms.

If my plans were sucessfull, maybe at 4/19 i will have an answer to it. (Im almost sure you know what i mean ;))

Haha yes. It will be a bicycle day to remember.

I believe we humans are not the only conscious beings. I believe there were another ones before us, and there will be other after us. And i also believe the universe itself exists with or without us. So, i believe the energy exists independently of we were aware of it. Or even its the energy which enables us to be aware of anything, including energy itself.

That is an interesting view. I especially like the last sentence. I have never really been able to bring myself to believe in aliens, although I don't doubt that life out there is possible, I just feel that trying to explain anything with the idea of aliens is just fantasy speculation at this point in time (but really, what isn't). I'm not sure if that is what you were getting at with the first sentence, but if not, just let me know.

What you say about there being another conscience before us however, I have been thinking about a lot lately. I was going to write a little ditty about my thoughts on that idea, but as I was typing it out I realized I still have a lot of stuff to think about and I still need to organize my thoughts a little more so I don't say something completely insane or stupid. I will get to it though, this subject interests me.

WaZ

04-06-2008, 10:17 AM

I think its very true... we even say "its too good to be true"... but i never heard anybody saying "its too bad to be true"... cause we actually think only bad things can be real, and the good ones are unreal... why does is so?
What about "it's too bad to be true" in the form of shocked disbelief?

Yes... and yet it moves the universe. Or rather, it is the universe. I believe we humans are not the only conscious beings. I believe there were another ones before us, and there will be other after us. And i also believe the universe itself exists with or without us. So, i believe the energy exists independently of we were aware of it. Or even its the energy which enables us to be aware of anything, including energy itself.
Well, that opens up a whole new thread of conversation about M Theory, branes, the Drake Equation, Fermi's Paradox, et al.

samostalan

04-06-2008, 11:07 AM

Does anyone else here love exercising their mind? Nevermind.. I'm sure the majority of you do. :jointsmile:

dragonrider

04-07-2008, 06:19 PM

Well, that opens up a whole new thread of conversation about M Theory, branes, the Drake Equation, Fermi's Paradox, et al.

The new thread can be called "Why I think our branes are so powerful."

guerillagrowerz

04-09-2008, 05:31 AM

We do use all of our brain which is made up of brain cells called neurons in the sense that an electrical signal is passed through each neuron of the few billions that make up our brain every day.

BigE89

04-09-2008, 08:28 PM

anyone that has gotten completely thrown or taken shrooms or salvia or sum psychedelic drug knows how powerful the mind is. your mind can make u believe or see anything. its like anything is possible when ur trippin. u can understand things more clearly too. Someone on this thread said sumthing bout using only 15% percent of ur mind and i think that is sort of right. u dont use all ur minds potential unless ur trippin on sumthing. IMO i think God wants ppl to do drugs like bud cuz it helps us understand things in the world. When u trip, u seem 2 understand life more and things like that. I aint trying 2 scare ppl off with all this god talk but thats wut i think. maybe it has nuthing 2 do with god?

HighTy

04-09-2008, 11:33 PM

dejayou30

04-11-2008, 01:50 AM

I witnessed someone who answered a question without them being asked (somewhat like jepardy?)
She thought she was asked to move a ladder to a different spot, in turn she hasent even been asked to do it yet. Upon the time after the ladder was moved they BOTH realized what had happened.

She somehow got the command to move the ladder. It was not by chance or just a good guess. She thought she had received a command or task to move the ladder. She was seconds away from actually asking her to move it. She somehow received this thought right before she was going to ask it? This was one of the first things that boggled my mind and opened it to these events actually being possible. I was only 12 I think :wtf:

This happens with my girlfriend and I. It sounds crazy, but there will be so many times where I will be thinking something and she will say it, or we will be in different rooms and I will be thinking "Man I want some kool aid" and she will eventually bring me the kool aid and say "I knew you wanted this" or something. Maybe its just knowing each other well or maybe its "mind rays" as we call it, but its pretty strange.

In relation to this thread, its my opinion that the mind and everything in it is gone when you die. The ideas of soul, self, ego and everything related is just that - an idea. I don't believe in a supernatural God and I think that like other animals, we are simply here to sustain and progress our species. However, we have evolved a supereme intelligence where we are able to build complex things, compose works of art, and understand the result of our actions before doing them. I think the mind is just programmed to think bigger than it is because of our egos. But I am pretty confident that this is our one shot at life and when we die, its like someone turning off our TV channel, never to be turned on again.

Unless you have a channel on YouTube, then you are immortal.....:jointsmile:

Ganj

04-12-2008, 05:31 AM

I sometimes sit and ponder the actual idea of ones mind. It's hard to wrap your head around how complexy the himan mind is. I'm taking a Psychology class for college and I love it.

BTW Kotton, your wrong. You use your whole brain. Thats jst a myth that you only use part of it. :)

Urban Legends Reference Pages: Ten Percent of our Brains (http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percent.asp)

No my dear, that is no myth. Perhaps we do use our entire brain but not ever in the ways that are impossible. Or maybe that is just me? Maybe I am not using my brain as best I can? Forget it, you're right.