CFL vs. HPS

[Backpacker420]

I'm currently planning my grow, which will be in an attic. It's not my house so I can't exactly start drilling holes everywhere, but I think regardless it's a little drafty so it may ventilate itself! Haha. There is a window which I could use though.

But my question is: CFL bulbs REALLY are attractive because of how low their watt usage is - but can you really go the whole grow with CFL bulbs? I would like some tips on this, as well as the pros and cons. If an HPS is just simply better, then I'll spend the $200.

[psteve]

can you really go the whole grow with CFL bulbs? Yes.


I would like some tips on this, as well as the pros and cons. If an HPS is just simply better, then I'll spend the $200. But you'll be happier with the results if you use HPS.
It depends on what's important to you.
Lower cost and profile (CFL), or higher yield and quality (HID).

[Backpacker420]

Is the difference significant?

Which is 'easier'?

[Zcomp]

I believe in the HPS over CFL's by about 300%. I started out using CFL's exclusively, In time I learned that not only do HPS have better Lumen per Watt which means less heat per watt, They also have a much higher PAR which is a measure of how much light is actually used by the chlorophyll. PAR stands for Photosynthetic Active Radiation. Science talk for "plants only use red and blue not green".
A CFL bulb is coated with 3(usually) coats of phosphor, 1-red 1-green 1-blue to make white. They use different exact color phosphor depending on the desired kelvin(color temp) output. But even though it sounds great, in actual spectrum terms it sucks.
The HPS on the other hand uses actual spark. This "Spark" more closely simulates the spectrum of the sun. The sun gives off all light colors intensely(instead of just 3 for CFL),
This leads to More PAR.
Just look up all the terms that I've used and you'll understand completely.
CFL's are a waste of money, electricity and time.
HPS = More PAR per watt/less heat per watt

[Backpacker420]

How much will my bill go up with HPS, like $15-20 a month or something?

[psteve]

Is the difference significant?

Which is 'easier'?
Yes. The difference is quite significant, but many people grow happily using CFL's.

Once they are set up, there is no difference in how easy or difficult they are. The timer turns them on, the timer turns them off. The difference is in how much heat they generate, and therefore how much temperature control you will need.
How much your bill goes up depends on a lot of things, and probably can't be accurately answered here without a lot more info.

[Zcomp]

It costs no more and no less. 70W HPS is = to 70W (3*23W)CFL in Cost.
It yields more per watt though if that answers your Q.
The thing with CFL's is, walking into home depot and walking out with CFL's SEEMs less conspicuous. But if you really think about it, Walking out with 1 HPS every 6 months is much less so.
The only REAL hard part about the HPS is getting your fixtures above say 150W. The 150 is about as big as it gets in HD or Lowes. They carry the bulbs for larger lamps but not the fixtures.
I ordered mine online taking a HUGE risk. Don't order EB@Y what ever you do. I chose Am@zon, but I won't be able to tell you if they decide to bust down my door for a suspicious purchase(it has happened to people before ie. eb@yers).
I got it delivered to my address right before I moved, I also used the anonymous prepaid creditcard.

[Backpacker420]

Wow. Ordering from eBay is really that bad? What if I buy from someone like High Tech Garden supply?

[Zcomp]

I cant tell you any what ifs.. I can only tell you that I have read enough articles about these busts going down.
During "discovery" you eventually find out who originally started the ball rolling, In these cases it turns out the ebay/paypal team are hard at work reporting suspicious activity. They probably get some type of cash "reward". Without rats this country would have no convictions.
I'm not against reporting crime, just against the punishment.
IF you order from ebay, be careful where you ship and what account you use.

[Opie Yutts]

I've always had good luck with eBay, except that once when a guy said something was new, and it obviously wasn't. Negative feedback for you dickweed. Just make sure they ship discretely if that kind of thing is important to you. Some do not. I just hate it when my package gets delivered to my parent's house and the label says it's from "Cannabis and Drug Related Supply International"? I much much much prefer to go to a real store though. There are many things as or more important than price.

CFL's are wonderful, and according to the numbers they're just slightly less efficient than HID. I've seen many wonderful grows that used only fluorescent light. You just have to remember the correct colors for the stages of growth, and preferably have a mix. Plants like a spectrum. Sorry Zcomp. We usually see eye to eye, but I got to disagree about the green light thing. I realize I'm in the minority here, and I used to believe as you, but I've done a lot of reading lately about actual plant physiology rather than what stoners are saying. There is a reason for every color of the visible and invisible spectrum. Not all 16 billion or whatever, but they all work together like individuals in an ant farm or bee hive. Get rid of the ants that carry out a certain function, and the whole colony dies or at least suffers some. Green light has more uses than to bounce off plants.

Sorry, got a little off track. You can use anything to veg, but incandescents don't do so hot. Believe it or not they do pretty well at budding though, you just have to have even more shitloads of them than you do with CFL's, and that kind of set up gets real hot. What's important is when you start to bud. Then the light is critical. You'll either want as many reddish fluorescents as you can stand to buy (mixed with a little blue), or HPS, preferably mixed with less MH or a little blue fluoro. At this point there is no comparison to HPS for making the bag appeal; those deep and wide, dense, dripping, sugar frosted corn cobs. That is except perhaps for that new one you can't use yet, xenon or something? Bright as the sun or so?

One huge consideration many people seem to overlook until it's too late, is the fact that HID lighting gets hot. I always say that with HID you should plan on spending as much money on venting as you do on lighting. If you don't, make sure you don't put your ducts behind a wall like I did, cause they'll be coming back out. In my opinion this is the main advantage of fluorescent lighting, and it's a big one. Just throw a fan or two into the grow area and your venting issues are covered.

So you see, I hope, that both ways have advantages and suckinesses. Just depends on your budget, time, desires, space, etc.

[Dutch Pimp]

Plants like a spectrum. Sorry Zcomp. We usually see eye to eye, but I got to disagree about the green light thing. I realize I'm in the minority here, and I used to believe as you, but I've done a lot of reading lately about actual plant physiology rather than what stoners are saying. There is a reason for every color of the visible and invisible spectrum. Not all 16 billion or whatever, but they all work together like individuals in an ant farm or bee hive. Get rid of the ants that carry out a certain function, and the whole colony dies or at least suffers some. Green light has more uses than to bounce off plants.


I agree, plants like full spectrum light....even a little green too...:thumbsup:

[Zcomp]

CFL's are wonderful, and according to the numbers they're just slightly less efficient than HID. I've seen many wonderful grows that used only fluorescent light. You just have to remember the correct colors for the stages of growth, and preferably have a mix. Plants like a spectrum. Sorry Zcomp. We usually see eye to eye, but I got to disagree about the green light thing. I realize I'm in the minority here, and I used to believe as you, but I've done a lot of reading lately about actual plant physiology rather than what stoners are saying. There is a reason for every color of the visible and invisible spectrum. Not all 16 billion or whatever, but they all work together like individuals in an ant farm or bee hive. Get rid of the ants that carry out a certain function, and the whole colony dies or at least suffers some. Green light has more uses than to bounce off plants.


I'm not disregarding you but, Could you point me in the direction of the info you speak of? I thought I was pretty thorough in researching exactly what my girls need. I say "My girls" because MJ is a diff. plant than most. Alot of info on plant physiology sounds great until I hit the end of the article to find that this info is based on say.. tomato's or lettuce. I've been forced to weed through this info and only accept the info that corresponds to MJ.
For instance, Tomatoes reflect red, Which means that green must be absorbed (and used) by the fruit. Whereas MJ is green in every corner. Since our beloved is illegal, We tend to be very short on studies.
And about the HPS, you know me, I had that huge CFL fixture worth 246W of CFL power. I replaced that with 2 150W HPS and watched the same exact room cool down an average of 10 degrees. Also look at dutchpimps pics. Imagine(or go find the chart) the CFL spectrum includes 3 sharp spikes in the 3 color zones. Not any good in PAR terms(which is the only term a horticulturist cares for), There is a term for the natural curve in light spectrum that "spark-type" bulbs emit. I will try to find the CFL spectrum pic I had on my Comp before the clean install.

[Opie Yutts]

Well I'm a little strapped for time right now and am not able to go back over the bookmarks in 3 computers, looking for the green spectrum info. However I can give you a couple quotes I copied from various sources. I just put down random quotes concerning what colors a plant needs, and I don't know where each quote came from. I have read several things that indicate that the colors we usually think of as not necessary have a big influence on color, aroma and taste of fruit and flowers. Look up carotenoid and flavinoid to get you started.

[Opie Yutts]

Oops, clicked the wrong button. Damn this new harvest. Anyway there are many more things involved in plant growth than chlorophyll. Flavinoids provide antioxidants and vitamins, and come in green, yellow and orange, as well as some other colors.

The addition of 24% green light (500 to 600 nm) to red and blue LEDs (RGB treatment) enhanced plant growth. The RGB treatment plants produced more biomass than the plants grown under the cool-white fluorescent lamps (CWF treatment)

Plants use wavelengths between 400-700 nm to carry out photosynthesis, called photosynthetically active radiation (PAR). Within that range there are photosynthesis response peaks at 440 nm (blue light) and 660 nm (far red). Of the potentially usable PAR falling on an upper leaf of a plant, about 80% is absorbed. The remainder 20% is mostly in the green wavelengths and most is transmitted down to lower leaves in the canopy, the ground below or reflected back.

Higher plants seem to require all the spectrum bands, except for the band wavelengths 800 nm, of the sunlight coming on the Earth's surface.

3) Maximum photosynthesis of canopies is possible only under combinations of blue, green and red radiation. Any kind of combinations of two of these wavebands or with only one spectral region, always reduces productivity.

The action spectrum for the initiation of fruiting (primordium formation) in Favolus arcularius was determined on the equal response basis. The detectable effect of light was observed in the region between 350 to 560 nanometers, showing six distinct peaks at 374, 398, 424, 446, 480, and 514 nanometers. In otherwords, purple, blue and green.

All these quotes are from reputable sources like the Dept. of Agriculture and stuff. Not just people blowing photons out their ass.

[Opie Yutts]

Dutch Pimp,

May I please have those buds hanging in your shower? Wow. I didn't think they were anywhere near that big until I took a closer look. Niiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

[Dutch Pimp]

Dutch Pimp,

May I please have those buds hanging in your shower? Wow. I didn't think they were anywhere near that big until I took a closer look. Niiiiiiiiiiiiiice.
Sorry...the white widow's colas are my stash for '08...:D...at least until the papaya seedlings finish....:thumbsup:

[ice#1]

why does it look as if all the leafs in that pic are dead or are dieing that some kind of new dutch thing kill all the leaves just wandering if i'm doing something wrong cuase close to 90% of the leaves on my plants are green at harvest time

[Dutch Pimp]

why does it look as if all the leafs in that pic are dead or are dieing that some kind of new dutch thing kill all the leaves just wandering if i'm doing something wrong cuase close to 90% of the leaves on my plants are green at harvest time
The way I grow white widow...all the fan leaves and some of the bud leaves get the nitrogen sucked out of them. Nothing green on the plant except the buds at harvest time, according to the trichomes...10% amber...:thumbsup:

[Opie Yutts]

Yeah, looks pretty normal to me. The ones that are still green at harvest time - now those look abnormal.

[AllforMe]

I cant tell you any what ifs.. I can only tell you that I have read enough articles about these busts going down.
During "discovery" you eventually find out who originally started the ball rolling, In these cases it turns out the ebay/paypal team are hard at work reporting suspicious activity. They probably get some type of cash "reward". Without rats this country would have no convictions.
I'm not against reporting crime, just against the punishment.
IF you order from ebay, be careful where you ship and what account you use.

I'm trying to be as inconspicuous as possible. My thoughts on these statements are conflicting. While possible, do you really think that the feds are going to go thru all the cost and trouble of staking out my house and securing warrants, just because I bought 1 hid light thru ebay (htgsupply's ebay store)? Even if somebody is watching, I do not sell, and have only a small grow setup for personal use, that only 3 people know about, and it is for our use only. We do not have connections, no suppliers, nobody to give up, and all 3 of us have clean criminal records. If I was a higher up at a dea office, then I would not waste my time, and very few judges would grant warrants based on 1 LEGAL light purchase. Now I understand if someone puts 8 1000 watt hps, 4 large hydro setups, and 3 "how to grow cannabis" books on their credit card and have it sent to their house, but even then without some kind of snitch testimony (ebay and paypal do not count, they have VERY circumstantial evidence at best!) I think that the ebay paypal thing would be used as supplemental evidence if you had a guy you sold to go down and sing, but they are probably not watching every ebay transaction looking for small purchases that MIGHT POSSIBLY be used for cultivating cannabis. I am all for playing it safe, and buy all my nutes, hydroton, net pots etc thru a hydro shop with cash, and i stop during work in my work truck, so no tails home, as I usually drive around from town to town for hours after a purchase. But my ph meter and tds meter were bought thru ebay, and I plan on getting a hid thru htgsupply's ebay store. Not only do I doubt that that would raise suspicion, but if the HID purchase was the only thing they had, my lawyer would piss on them in court. I also do not smoke and drive, nor do I transport. If I want to go somewhere stoned, I do it at home before i leave and if it wears off, oh well. Plus, I think my small grow op is a less conspicuous plan than meeting with a known pot dealer every week or two, and my phone # in his phone and his in mine. Just my opinion, anyone who has actually had trouble thru ebay respond, but I'm sure most of these cases was just supplemental after they were already being watched due to snitch testimony!

[Backpacker420]

PS - I think I have heard that you will get a cheaper price if you order directly from HTGSupply.com - Saves them money and they return the savings.

[Zcomp]

Allforme,
Your probably 100% right. In your situation(as you explained it), I would probably do the same. And think the same.
But some who visit this site are already aren't always as "low-key". I'm super-paranoid but thats just me and my stash :jointsmile: .
Opie,
Thank you for the info. I will research more tonight and come back more educated.
Just to verify Favolus arcularius is a mushroom correct? which means that green is not really reflected from it.
What relation does Favolus arcularius have to MJ??

[Opie Yutts]

I usually drive around from town to town for hours after a purchase.

Seems a little too much.

[Opie Yutts]

What relation does Favolus arcularius have to MJ??

You mean other than being a plant? Well none, I guess. I didn't know it was a mushroom.

[AllforMe]

Seems a little too much.

LOL, nah, not as counterintelligence measures. I am in the service industry, hit the growshop at lunch, and continue going around doing jobs from place to place until quitting time. Unlike if I was to say drive to the growshop, buy stuff, and drive diectly home to my growroom. I have the added buffer of the lazy narc tail not wanting to spend 4 hrs watching me work, along with a company truck that they would need warrants to go into our company records to see who drives it, instead of a license plate with my name on the reg. Just a perk, not completely necessary!

[Zcomp]

You mean other than being a plant? Well none, I guess. I didn't know it was a mushroom.

See these are the thing that I say are important to know before assuming that a study applies to our MJ. Mushroom's are a fungus. Not really qualifying as a plant.
Its VERY important to look farther into these studies to see what sort of agriculture it actually applies to.
Just because a cola can be classified as a fruit doesn't mean that its like all fruits. Tomatoes, pineapples, apples, oranges and any other plants are unique in needs.
The key here is chlorophyll. Chlorophyll is affected by green but minimally. Since chlorophyll is the energy catalyst we can assume green has little to no affect on productivity.

[Opie Yutts]

Yeah, I felt a little dumb a few minutes after I posted that because it suddenly dawned on me that a mushroom is very different from a weed plant.

However, just because I made a mistake with that, doesn't mean I'm wrong. I was surprised by how many different times in the past 2 weeks I have seen conclusions of studies on all manner of flora, that indicate plants do better if they have a full spectrum, including green. Marijuana is flora. Us humans have barely began to scratch the surface of understanding how a plant works. To assume we can just go ahead and use the two colors it likes most, is like assuming I should just feed my kid ice cream and pizza. That's what he likes most, and he grows real big and fast if that's all I give him. That doesn't mean that's what's best for him in the long run. And yes, I'm aware that my kid is not a plant.

Here's the deal. When you build your LED arrays you can leave out the greens, yellows and oranges. When I build mine, I'm going to use some of those colors, plus a couple infrareds and ultraviolets.

[Opie Yutts]

PS. Chlorophyll is far from being the only energy catalyst.

[Roughrider]

First, CFLs are going to cost more than HPS in terms of power usage. CFLs just aren;'t as efficient as HPS lights. A 250w HPS will put out something like 25,000 lumens. A 23w CFL puts out about 1600 (and CFLs are, at best, in the 70 lumens per watt area). So that means to get 25,000 lumens from CFLs, you'd need around 350w...a good 33% more. That's extra $.

To me, the big question is how big of an area you have. If you've got a small area--and I'm talking about 3 square feet or less, you're better off with CFLs or (better) T5s. You get added heat and stress issues with an HPS in really small areas, and you end up spending more on equipment. That's when it starts getting harder.

But if you're at 4 sq. ft. or more--well, you should either go with a combo of HPS and CFL/T5 lights or (if it's 6 sq. ft. or over), just go with HPS. To get enough light into a 5 sq. ft. area requires a ton of CFLs. The big CFLs aren't as efficient either, so using 65w CFLs isn't an answer...and they generate plenty of heat, too, so you lose that advantage.

FWIW...I'd take a look at my area size to determine the best type of light, and focus on good ventilation and good reflective surfaces. Time spent on planning at the beginning saves a lot more time in the end.

[Opie Yutts]

Sounds like a great plan to me.

[Zcomp]

I hear you opie. I have just come to the point where, If it wasn't a study on MJ, It isn't a study to me.
The uniqueness of each of the plants in the spectrum is what leads me to that conclusion. If I were to build this LED array, I would most certainly leave out green on one and not on another. Then I would have my answer. But thats not to say it would be anyone else's answer.
Opie, I hope when this is legal, we can get together and have us a few lab experiments. I do so enjoy an objective opinion for sciences sake.

[Opie Yutts]

I have just come to the point where, If it wasn't a study on MJ, It isn't a study to me.
Especially since there haven't been a lot of studies on weed, that seems a little, uh what's the word, I don't know. It just seems like not the right way to learn about MJ physiology. Doesn't seem like you'll learn much that way. Oh well, different strokes and all.


Opie, I hope when this is legal, we can get together and have us a few lab experiments. I do so enjoy an objective opinion for sciences sake.
It is legal. I've got the card. Want to start next week?

[Zcomp]

Now your just making me jealous. Rub it all in my face and sh!t. LOL. I really would begin next week were I living in one of the good states.
Your shoulders must be very relaxed now with that paranoid weight off of it. I'm getting giddy just thinking of the day I'm in your shoes. :hippy:

[Opie Yutts]

Yeah, it makes a difference knowing you're less likely to be scrutinized, agonized and hasslized by the man. It's always the man bringing me down. I only have to worry about the feds or police in other states, since they still are calling it illegal. I was surprised to learn that I could do some things like have up to an ounce on me while going in or out of the airport.

[benvortec]

Yeah, it makes a difference knowing you're less likely to be scrutinized, agonized and hasslized by the man. It's always the man bringing me down. I only have to worry about the feds or police in other states, since they still are calling it illegal. I was surprised to learn that I could do some things like have up to an ounce on me while going in or out of the airport.

Is that only in Cali?
And i'm really confused now with all of the debating going on. I will more than likely do a small cabinet grow with 2-3 plants. I was planning to go with CFL's but is it true that the same amount of light from CFLs will get hotter than the HPS? I thought that was the advantage of CFLs...? maybe it's just conflicting Opinions ;)... so would i be better off with a 150 or 250 HPS?

[Zcomp]

opie is either refeering to Cali or Oregon.
The only 2 states that the locals have actually backed off us.
Worrying only about the feds is great. I would never produce enough to catch there eye. :thumbsup:

[Opie Yutts]

Is that only in Cali?
I don't know if it's in CA or not, but it's in at least one other place.

is it true that the same amount of light from CFLs will get hotter than the HPS? I thought that was the advantage of CFLs...? maybe it's just conflicting Opinions ;)... so would i be better off with a 150 or 250 HPS?

I don't know about that, seems not right though. I'm thinking about my 12 CFL in my bud section that are something like 26 watts each, but are supposedly equal to a 1200 watt incandescent. I assume for comparative reasons that's supposed to be the same as a 1200W HID light, not sure. I do know how hot my 400W gets, so I can imagine how hot a 312W would get (12x26W). I'm fairly certain that 312W of CFL runs cooler than 312 of HID, and that's supposed to be worth 1200 watts of other light. I've never tested it though, and wouldn't be too surprised to hear they were close.

I do know that I have much fewer temperature issues when I grow in enclosed places with CFL. Actually, I guess that would be about none. Just throw a fan or two on the grow and that's it. No ducting. No cutting holes to the outdoors. No huge, noisy fans or electricity bills. Just make sure you use the correct spectrums and you'll get a good harvest. True, nothing like the same wattage of HID, but I'm beginning to think that little bit of extra yield is not worth the extra hassle and cost. Man I can't believe I'm saying this.

[Opie Yutts]

opie is either refeering to Cali or Oregon.
Oh way to just give me up.

The only 2 states that the locals have actually backed off us.
It sure is nice being able to legally smoke weed, but I wouldn't exactly say they've backed off. It's a constant struggle to keep what we have, and we used to be able to get clones, seeds, and medicine (weed) from clinics.

[psteve]

Oh way to just give me up.

It sure is nice being able to legally smoke weed, but I wouldn't exactly say they've backed off. It's a constant struggle to keep what we have, and we used to be able to get clones, seeds, and medicine (weed) from clinics.I help patients get clones, seeds, and medicine all the time. It just can't be sold or traded any more.
Free is still OK. :thumbsup:

[Mississippi Steve]

I don't know if it's in CA or not, but it's in at least one other place.


I don't know about that, seems not right though. I'm thinking about my 12 CFL in my bud section that are something like 26 watts each, but are supposedly equal to a 1200 watt incandescent. I assume for comparative reasons that's supposed to be the same as a 1200W HID light, not sure. I do know how hot my 400W gets, so I can imagine how hot a 312W would get (12x26W). I'm fairly certain that 312W of CFL runs cooler than 312 of HID, and that's supposed to be worth 1200 watts of other light. I've never tested it though, and wouldn't be too surprised to hear they were close.

I do know that I have much fewer temperature issues when I grow in enclosed places with CFL. Actually, I guess that would be about none. Just throw a fan or two on the grow and that's it. No ducting. No cutting holes to the outdoors. No huge, noisy fans or electricity bills. Just make sure you use the correct spectrums and you'll get a good harvest. True, nothing like the same wattage of HID, but I'm beginning to think that little bit of extra yield is not worth the extra hassle and cost. Man I can't believe I'm saying this.


I am only using CFLs until it warms up a little and there is no more danger of frost, then the children are going to play outside unstead of beeing cooped up in the house. :thumbsup:

[Number1]

Do it right and spend the money.. you get what you pay for.

[Roughrider]

I don't know if it's in CA or not, but it's in at least one other place.


I don't know about that, seems not right though. I'm thinking about my 12 CFL in my bud section that are something like 26 watts each, but are supposedly equal to a 1200 watt incandescent. I assume for comparative reasons that's supposed to be the same as a 1200W HID light, not sure. I do know how hot my 400W gets, so I can imagine how hot a 312W would get (12x26W). I'm fairly certain that 312W of CFL runs cooler than 312 of HID, and that's supposed to be worth 1200 watts of other light. I've never tested it though, and wouldn't be too surprised to hear they were close.

I do know that I have much fewer temperature issues when I grow in enclosed places with CFL. Actually, I guess that would be about none. Just throw a fan or two on the grow and that's it. No ducting. No cutting holes to the outdoors. No huge, noisy fans or electricity bills. Just make sure you use the correct spectrums and you'll get a good harvest. True, nothing like the same wattage of HID, but I'm beginning to think that little bit of extra yield is not worth the extra hassle and cost. Man I can't believe I'm saying this.

When you make light, you're going to generate heat. The advantage of CFLs is that the curvy shape gives a larger area for heat to dissipate. That means they cool more easily and quickly (and nearer the light). But if you put a ton of them in a cab, you're going to end up with plenty of heat. HPS and MH are actually more efficient..they generate less heat too--but it's all coming from one single spot/bulb. Less surface area = more heat when on.

The big problem, again, is efficiency. HPS and MH lights are a little more efficient than CFLs when you've got a 70w HPS/MH. The bigger the HPS/MH light, the bigger the advantage in efficiency. At thier best--and it's usually around 23-40w bulbs--CFLs produce about 70 lumens per watt. Look at this comparison.

23w CFL produces 1600 lumens = 69.6 lumens per watt
27w CFL produces 1850 lumens = 68.5 lumens per watt
40w CFL produces 2800 lumens = 70.0 lumens per watt

About the same efficiency. (CFLs get less efficient when they're bigger than 40w.) But look at HPS lights:

70w HPS produces 5350 lumens = 76.4 lumens per watt
150w HPS produces 13400 lumens = 89.3 lumens per watt
250w HPS produces 24000 lumens = 96 lumens per watt
400w HPS produces 45000 lumens = 112.5 lumens per watt

As they get bigger,it's a huge difference. (And those aren't "special" or fancy bulbs; they're the PlusRite cheapies from 1000bulbs.com. 12 CFLs don't generate as much heat as a 400w HPS. But check it out.

12 x 26w/1800 lumens = 21600 lumens
250w HPS = 24000 lumens
400w HPS = 45000 lumens

12 CFLs generate less light than a 250w HPS! So that's what you'd want to compare it to for heat, stress, etc. A 400w HPS is a totally different matter. It's producing over twice as much light as 12 CFLs...and using only 28% more energy to do it.

which is why, for larger grows, you have to go HPS/MH. CFLs are great for smaller area--IMO, under 3 sq. ft. After that, you need to many that the number of sockets and bulbs and the lesser efficiency makes it a nightmare. Just my .02.When you make light, you're going to generate heat. The advantage of CFLs is that the curvy shape gives a larger area for heat to dissipate. That means they cool more easily and quickly (and nearer the light). But if you put a ton of them in a cab, you're going to end up with plenty of heat. HPS and MH are actually more efficient...they generate less heat too--but it's all coming from one single spot/bulb. Less surface area = more heat when on.

The big problem, again, is efficiency. HPS and MH lights are a little more efficient than CFLs when you've got a 70w HPS/MH. The bigger the HPS/MH light, the bigger the advantage in efficiency. At thier best--and it's usually around 23-40w bulbs--CFLs produce about 70 lumens per watt. Look at this comparison.

23w CFL produces 1600 lumens = 69.6 lumens per watt
27w CFL produces 1850 lumens = 68.5 lumens per watt
40w CFL produces 2800 lumens = 70.0 lumens per watt

About the same efficiency. (CFLs get less efficient when they're bigger than 40w.) But look at HPS lights:

70w HPS produces 5350 lumens = 76.4 lumens per watt
150w HPS produces 13400 lumens = 89.3 lumens per watt
250w HPS produces 24000 lumens = 96 lumens per watt
400w HPS produces 45000 lumens = 112.5 lumens per watt

As they get bigger,it's a huge difference. (And those aren't "special" or fancy bulbs; they're the PlusRite cheapies from 1000bulbs.com. 12 CFLs don't generate as much heat as a 400w HPS. But check it out.

12 x 26w/1800 lumens = 21600 lumens
250w HPS = 24000 lumens
400w HPS = 45000 lumens

12 CFLs generate less light than a 250w HPS! So that's what you'd want to compare it to for heat, stress, etc. A 400w HPS is a totally different matter. It's producing over twice as much light as 12 CFLs...and using only 28% more energy to do it.

Which is why, for larger grows, I think you have to go HPS/MH. CFLs are great for smaller area--IMO, under 3 or 4 sq. ft. After that, you need so many that the number of sockets and bulbs and the lesser efficiency makes it more difficult. But Opie--if it's working for you, good deal. If it ain't broke! :D Just my .02.

[sunahura]

i researched PGLs and it seems that cfl's are just as effecient as Hps, a lot of times, people are mad at cfl's because they not putting up enough lumens, and in the end thats going to kill your yield, 50,000 or 100,00 cfls are good period, and for poor people this is a good way to step up to a high quality product, just buy about 40 to 60 watts CFL every payday, or any time you get money and you'll start having amazing success, there is a guy on one of these forums that grew 15 1/2 ounces with 940 watts of CFL light. The results are what matter. A pound is a pound.

[bubbas]

Has anyone ever checked how much power a lamp draws? I have and found something very very surprising. I used an amp probe and measured the amps a "250" watt cfl draws and what a "400" watt HPS draws. What came up was the "250" cfl ONLY DREW 0.9 amps@115 VAC the HPS "400" drew 3 amps @115VAC. Using ohms law, the "250" cfl is only consuming 103.5 watts. The "400" HPS is consuming 345 watts. Why are they called 250 watters? This makes total sense because a 8U cfl bulb uses T5 tubes if you were to stretch out all the tubes of a 8U, you would get a little over 15 feet of T5 tubing. A 4 ft T5 tube draws 28 watts. If you take 4 X 4ft T5 you would get 112 watts. I don't believe a "250" watt cfl puts out 15000 lumins though. I believe it is closer to what a T5 puts out which is around 95 lm/w so a so called 250 watt cfl is in around 9832 lumins.
My point is if you want to make a fair comparison between cfl and HPS, you got to use the same or close to the same amount of watts. Most comparison done so far used way to few cfl bulbs because we all believed the wattage on the box. an ideal test condition would use 3 X "250" watt cfl's vs. 1 X "400" watt HPS. All you nay sayers can do this current drw test yourself and see that these numbers are correct. All you need is a amp probe clamp on meter and takes only a few seconds to get a reading.

[Roughrider]

Pretty much everything in the longer post by simpletbrain above is garbage. Don't use 5000k bulbs when 6500k are available. He's using mini LEDs instead of 1w LEDs. His math is totally and completely wrong on the LEDs and with respect to light/distance for HPS and MH (lumen output for HID lighting is determined much farther away than for CFLs). HPS and MH put out gobs of light at the 400mh and 700mh spectrum...for God's sake, pretty much everyone has grown and grown well with MH and HPS. Check the grow logs on here. Light from any source decreases in intensity in exponential relation to distance; the amount is the square of the distance form the source. Double any distance from a source and the amount of light will be one quarter of the previous amount. This goes for M,. Hps, CFL...everything. It's why you have to keep CFLs very close to plants...within 1� or (at most) 2�. At 3� from the plant, the plant gets ¼ the amount of light it gets if the CFL is only 1 1/2� away. Small distance changes from plants are much more important in CFLs grows...a shift of 2� (from, say, 10� to 12�) with MH and HPS will have some effect, but not a huge one. A change from 2� to 4� with CFLs is the difference between growing something and getting pretty much nothing. I'd pretty much ignore that particular post, unless you want to tell everyone who is growing/has grown with HPS and MH that their lights don't work.

CFLs do work very well for two types of grows: SOG/SCROG and microgrows (less than 2 sq. ft.). The story that CFLs do not generate heat is false; they generate plenty of heat. You just don't feel it unless you've got a lot of them in a small space. Unfortunately if you grow more than two plants, you're going to need a buttload of CFLs in a small space. A 12â?� x 24â?� area will require about 150s of CFLsâ??6 of the 23-26w bulbs. You won't get much canopy penetration either (the distance square law applies to CFLS too), so you'll often need/want supplementary light.

bubbasâ??here's the thing. You need to figure out light production from the lights being used. Technically, you should see the PAR light a plant puts out...but, really, you can get a very good estimate by using color temperature (kelvin) and lumens. PAR amounts for bulbs are really hard to find; bulb temperature and lumens are pretty much universal. I'm a bit confused about your 250w CFL...for one thing, I've never seen that big of a CFL. If it's a 250w equvialent, it should be drawing around 65 watts. Here are some examples of those.

65 Watt Compact Fluorescents (http://www.1000bulbs.com/65-Watt-Compact-Fluorescents/)

These bulbs put out around 4000 lumens. (CFLS are, at best, around 70 lumens per watt in terms of efficiency, and tend to get get less efficient as they get larger). A 400w HPS puts out around 50000 lumens...about 11 times more. To get as much light, you'd need 11 of those bulbs...and that would be over 700 watts. Which makes sense, as CFLs are (much) more efficient than old style incandescent bulbs, but are about 30-45% less efficient (in light production per watt) than most HPS and MH lights.

p.s. Someone ought to take simpletbrain up on his offer to give away a 250w HPS. I can tell you from experience that a 250w HPS will grow four very nice 26-35" plants in an area of about 5 square feet. You'll need about 15-20 100w equivalent CFLs to match that...and you'll find that heat becomes an issue with that many CFLS too.

[Pandaman007]

Roughrider, I'm in total agreement with you. A post like his is just an advertisement for the sale of LED equipment. I'm surprised that he didn't quote the name of the store he works at to make a sale!

I understood most of the math there. Even my friend who is more adept at it said <WTF?!?>! Seriously! With the narrow width of the LEDS (They are NOT omnidirectional), how many units would I need for my 4'x4' tent that has 7 plants? Take into account that ALL OF THE 4'x4' WILL BE TAKEN UP WITH CANOPY when the plants get to their fullest. How many? 1/sqft? Like you said, you MUST KEEP THE UNITS VERY VERY close to the plants.



20W LED PANEL in 23 sq in. * 6.26 = 125W in 1 sq ft of LED= 1,565 INDIVIDUAL LEDS !! Forget about that!


So what... 16 units are REQUIRED for my grow area? Really?!? "16"???
Is anyone going to spend $1,000's of dollars on LED's for a 4'x4' grow area? NO!
Is that efficient? NO!

Can you set it and forget it for a week? NO!

16x125watts = 2,000watts. HHmmmmm........

Can you tell me again, how big of a Power Supply would I need to have in my computer tower to power 16 LED Panels?

You state numbers as if they are fact and show no "Real World" proof whatsoever. Does there exist a side-by-side comparison USING THE SAME STRAIN IN BOTH TESTS that ANYONE CAN READ AND VERIFY?

No.

You're full of shiit.

LED's may be a great lighting source in the future.... But so could ANYTHING ELSE! All you have to do is "Put Up" or "Shut Up"!

It's people like you who will RUIN the LED industry for growers!

You're full of shiit.

[Mississippi Steve]

Some us can't afford LED lights, and there are those of us who would raise red flags just by buying HPS or HID lights. (think rural southern US). CFLs work just fine, and nobody takes a second glance when you buy a pack of CFLs at the local grocery or hardware store.....as long as you are only buying 1 or 2 packs at a time. Buying fixtures for CFLs at Lowes or Home Depot isn't going to raise any red flags either.

You can *DO* what you want, but personally, as a business owner, and a respected member of the community, I have to be very careful.

FWIW, I live in the middle of the Mississippi Bible Belt. Its a whole different world here.

[the image reaper]

having had the pleasure of viewing MSsteves CFL garden pics, and, sampling the fruits of his labor, I have to say, he's got it down :thumbsup: ...

[bubbas]

[
bubbasâ??here's the thing. You need to figure out light production from the lights being used. Technically, you should see the PAR light a plant puts out...but, really, you can get a very good estimate by using color temperature (kelvin) and lumens. PAR amounts for bulbs are really hard to find; bulb temperature and lumens are pretty much universal. I'm a bit confused about your 250w CFL...for one thing, I've never seen that big of a CFL. If it's a 250w equvialent, it should be drawing around 65 watts. Here are some examples of those.

65 Watt Compact Fluorescents (http://www.1000bulbs.com/65-Watt-Compact-Fluorescents/)

These bulbs put out around 4000 lumens. (CFLS are, at best, around 70 lumens per watt in terms of efficiency, and tend to get get less efficient as they get larger). A 400w HPS puts out around 50000 lumens...about 11 times more. To get as much light, you'd need 11 of those bulbs...and that would be over 700 watts. Which makes sense, as CFLs are (much) more efficient than old style incandescent bulbs, but are about 30-45% less efficient (in light production per watt) than most HPS and MH lights.

p.s. Someone ought to take simpletbrain up on his offer to give away a 250w HPS. I can tell you from experience that a 250w HPS will grow four very nice 26-35" plants in an area of about 5 square feet. You'll need about 15-20 100w equivalent CFLs to match that...and you'll find that heat becomes an issue with that many CFLS too.[/QUOTE]

Hey roughrider,
sorry i havn't checked this thread in awhile. Here are some pics of a 250 cfl these are NOT 60 watt cfl's They are suppose to be 250 watt but real time power consumption is 103 watts. We have built a few fixtures with four of these bulbs together and it only draws a total of 430 watts i'm not sure why we lost some efficiency maybe from the wiring. We will be testing two of these four lamp fixtures for a total of 860 watts and compare it to 1000 watt HPS. With eight bulbs i think the light distribution is going to do very well. Our goal is to grow 2.5 lbs. with these 860 watts. From light measurements our output is neck and neck with the HPS but it is more even at all pionts of our grow area...i think this is going to kick ass.