Please help them theyre dying!

[smackhead1984]

please help me, ive described my setup as best i can, ive spent hours looking at posts on here and i still cant tell what is wrong with my plants :(

-indoor grow
-soil
-vitamix soil
-nothing added to the soil
-Soil pH = 6.5
-Water source = tap water
-Water pH = 6.5
-Age of plant = 4 weeks
-Type of fertilizer = biobizz's bio grow
-Rate of application = currently 1,5ml per litre
-Lighting source = 600w HPS
- Distance from plant = now 20 inch, was 17 inches for last day or two as plants grew and lights werent adjusted
-Temperature 27 - 30
-36% humidity. (Maybe due to no watering yesterday and not enough watering the day before, both the plants and soil were bone dry.
-Lighting schedule = on 24 hours
-Ventilation = none as yet, shed door is opened once a day for 20 mins and is larger than a spare room.



I had bad yellowing of lower leaves on 3 plants starting 2 days ago but at same time the rest of the same plants were a deep green, all of my plants leaves were droopybut looked healthy. So I thought id tackle the droopyness first and thought they may be overwatered so i never watered them at all yesterday, this morning they where all withering and they looked as though they were nearly dead. I immediately watered very generously, more than double what I normally would, I watered with just water no fertilizer added just in case, but I did add half a tea spoon of epsom salts to a gallon of water to tackle the yellowing.
Half an hour later the plants already looked better from the watering but I think I will loose quite a few leaves if not plants, cant believe that they changed so dramatically.

After the no watering incident all the plants have seemingly slightly different conditions???
Before that just 3 plants had blotches on the lower leaves spreading from the middles but not on the green veins, thatâ??s what made me think it was magnesium deficiency.


Heres some photos fo the sickest ones, the yellow and droopyness of the leaves was present before thebad watering experience but the curling down and up of the tips are just on two plants and hasve newly appeared today, im gutted
Yellow blotches
http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1423/yellow%20blotch%20and%20saggy%20leaves.jpg

saggy as hell, also yellowing and dry
http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1422/yello%20leaf.jpg

same plant, worst leaf
http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1417/dying%20leaf.jpg

same pic different lighting
http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1418/slightly%20yellow%20leaf.jpg

Saggy!
http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1427/saggy.jpg


Turned up tips??
http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1421/turned%20up%20tips.jpg

Turned down tips??
http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1420/turned%20down%20tips.jpg

Different ailment maybe? as on end of leaf?
http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1426/yellowing%20leaves.jpg

Yellow blotches
http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1425/yellow%20blotches%20close.jpg

Please help them! :(

[Mr. Clandestine]

I'd recommend getting some ventilation in there as soon as possible. That may or may not be contributing to your problems. But still, 85°F is a little on the warm side, and stagnant air is doing nothing to help matters. And with your light being constantly on and the temps being pretty constant, your plants are transpiring faster than they would on an 18/6 schedule. Your humidity could be a little higher, but low humidity is much less of a potential problem than high humidity. Lower your temps, and the humidity should naturally begin to climb. Warm air absorbs more moisture.

I don't know anything about the brand of soil you're using, though it looks like it could use a little more perlite. As for pointing out a more specific diagnosis, I'll leave that to the more experienced growers. With the specifics you've listed, someone should be around soon to lend their opinions.

Good luck. :jointsmile:

[smackhead1984]

thanks for your help mr C, im going to install a fan tomorrow hopefully, in the mean time in going to just pin up a corner of the mylar curtain on one side of my grow area, and place a bowl of water next to the plants hopefully that will tide them over.

Please hep me diagnose the yellowing people! i dont think they got much time left, i can only check on them once a day because of work i just hope they dont go in between, :(:(

[sublime27]

How is the drainage in your soil? It doesnt look like you have any or much perlite. Maybe do a transplant with perlite and your soil mix. The fan though imo will help alot. hope you get it worked out.
good luck.:jointsmile:

[smackhead1984]

the brand of soil is vitamix-pro from ikon international, im not sure how much if any perlite is added, if anybody knows anything about it could u let me know, ive done a search but cant find any details on it. The shop i bought it from said it was all i needed for our kind of growing though ;)

[stinkyattic]

I think your pH is off, and something else is locking out nutes as well, possibly from the soil mix. Check the pH of your runoff and then follow this flush instruction:

Water HEAVILY. To the point of runoff, with plain ph'd tap water (at pH 6.8 if the runoff pH shows that it is below 6.6, or pH 6.5 if it is above 6.9), and use 3x the water as the volume of the pot. You are flushing the plants. You don't have mag def, so the epsom salts were not needed, and you will want to remove them from the soil.
After you flush, water with 1/4 strength grow fertilizer.

[smackhead1984]

i did water generously yesterday with just plain water to the point of there being a little run off , and the ph came out as 6.5 but the ph test kit goes up in only 0.5's so that was estimated by the colour, will the plants be able to stand this watering two days in a row? thanks alot for your help, it makes sense as they all have different symptoms. im goin to ph test it asap if you let me know, thanks again

[smackhead1984]

sorry my last post didnt make much sense lol, i'll have to water and flush them first thing in the morning because im working tonight, should i be looking for the yellow leaves to turn back green, stay yellow? or shrivel and die? or should i snip them off?

is it likely i'll have a much high number of males now because of this stress?

big shout out to sublime27, Mr. Clandestine an stinkyattic thanks for the help!

:rastasmoke:

[stinkyattic]

Just let the leaves be, because what they do will be an indicator of what was wrong and whether it is still wrong.
you GOTTA check the pH ASAP so you know how to flush. Unfortunately if all you can resolve is wihtin 0.5 that is goinf to be a real tough one!
Stress can cause hermies (male flowers on a female plant) so the sooner you get this fixed, the better.

[smackhead1984]

yeah i was a bit gutted when i got home cos the ph test is from the same company that makes clonex rooting gel, wouldve thought it'd be a bit more accurate,

any links to a better ph test for future use?

[sublime27]

Hey smackhead,
I would look into a digital pen type unit, you should be able to find many different makers. As for which unit to buy, I always go by you get what you pay for but look around a little more and you can find it cheaper! Hope the flush helps. :thumbsup:

[stinkyattic]

the GH liquid indicator is fine. Hanna meters are crappy. Truncheons are indestructible.

[smackhead1984]

plants are lookin ok now, theyre hardly droopy at all, lookin a paler colour than they were, the yellows still there and before it was flushed the yellowness had spred to more plants so they looked more uniformed, theyre all sprouting a new set of top leaves which are a good shad of green,

With the flush the runoff had a 6.0 ph so i flushed it with plain water as it is out of the tap which had a ph of 7, so do you think it will even out ok?

[stinkyattic]

With the flush the runoff had a 6.0 ph so i flushed it with plain water as it is out of the tap which had a ph of 7, so do you think it will even out ok?
Possibly, or it will at least help some. You can keep checking the runoff to see how well it is working. If your tap water contains a lot of CaCO3, it will work better. But the usual way to do it is with commercial 'pH up' liquid.

[smackhead1984]

should i put a slight amount of ph up with the 7.0 water to bring it up to 7.2 maybe? i already bought some just in case

[stinkyattic]

GREAT. Yes, 7.2 is good. Since your medium has shown a tendency to go low, bring it right up to 6.8 by flushing with water at 7.2 until the runoff reads 6.8, and then water with a 1/4 strength complete fertilizer.

[smackhead1984]

do you mean 1/4 of what i was using or 1/4 of reccomended? i was using 1.5ml per litre an their site says 2-4ml per litre

[stinkyattic]

1/4 of recommended. You can go a little stronger than that; it's not exact. You are just replacing the BAD stuff you washed out with GOOD stuff you want.

[smackhead1984]

thanks, will do 0.75 ml per litre, ive got a few progress pics here:

http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1448/craplight.jpg
http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1449/good%20lighting.jpg
http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1451/single.jpg


also ive took one of the plants out of its pot for a minute, as you can see the roots are very visible, are they long overdue a repot? i was planning on another week or two of vegging in the same pots then switching to what i think is a gallon container when they go into flower:

http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1450/roots.jpg

[stinkyattic]

Roots look right on schedule for a repot- good development, not overly rootbound.

[smackhead1984]

great! i was thinkin of repotting to a pot twice the size of the current pot, for them to be in for the next 2 weeks while vegging, and then to go in pots 4 x the size of the current ones as they go into flower, what do you think? also was wondering if repotting stresses the plant should i give them chance to settle into the 12/12 regime for a week before i repot to them, or is 12/12 not a stress?

[smackhead1984]

hi, added air inlet and outlet vents to room, and a fan that is very big and powerful, i was planning on putting it on a timer for just 10 mins a day because i was told by the shop it would completely exchange the air in my size of room in just 10 minutes, is this enough or should it be exchange completely more than once a day?


http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1458/1plant.jpg

http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1459/ailment.jpg

http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1460/ailment%202.jpg

http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1461/crop.jpg

this is from yesterday, theyre not looking bad, a bit droopier but probably from the heavy flushing/watering, still as yellow but not crispy anymore.

Strange thing is my water out of the tap was pH 7, but with a 0.75ml of fert added to a litre it is pH 7.5, show did the soil end up being brought down to 6.0 if it wasnt my fertz?

[basementbotany]

fresh air needs to be replaced mulitiple times a day. i would exhaust the room probably every 15 mins. or so. i keep my fan running constantly. read up on ventilation here, you'll find a lot of useful info if you just look around. are you using any additional c02? if not then you can keep your fan on continuously. In an unsealed room, the source of
C02 comes in everytime you exchange air in the room for outside air.

[smackhead1984]

:stoned:hi basement b, my setup is a bit different than most so im not sure if that often of exhausting would apply to my setup? The room my 2 grow areas is in is massive,(the grow areas are curtained off with white sheeting and arent that big compared to the room)
The inlet vent and outlet vent with fan attached are in the space between the two areas so that air is exchanged in this sort of corridoor and then slowly exchanges with the curtained off area.
Wouldnt a large area like this need exhausting alot less often than a small area like a closet grow?
The fan is massive too and the guy in the shop was adamant it would completely exchange all the air completely in my size of room.

Please let me know what you think :stoned:

[stinkyattic]

Your soil most likely went low because of peat content. It's a common problem.
Yes, a big room with few plants needs less exhausting than a small room with big plants, but air flow is ALWAYS good (with the exception of a CO2 enriched sealed room).

[smackhead1984]

Stinky do you think i'll need to ph my soil after every watering from now on? and should i ph test each individual pot or will a result for one reflect the rest?

I suppose it'd be pointless me asking if so many times exhausting would be ok until i told you how big the room is, i'll post a diagram with sizes tomorrow if its ok, i think the fan being on often will cause my temps to drop too low, as its a shed and outside is nippy!

With the new fan and vents, the temp was 24 degrees Celcius on average after the first time the fan was on before hand it was about 30 C. I woulnt be able to add a heater to the room, hopefully when the flower rooms lights are on the temps will fall to a better level maybe

[stinkyattic]

You'll just want to get in the habit of watering with a nute solution at correct p
H for your soil. So if your soil tends to go low, it should be 6.8. If it tends to go high, it should be 6.5 (these are the high low values for being in range). This way, all pots should stay in range. If you see problems on an individual plant, you can deal with it on a case by case basis but now you should be much more stable. Do not let the plants becoem rootbound because then soil chemistry is MUCH harder to control.

[smackhead1984]

thanks i'll keep a check on it, i repotted them all today, i had to take cuttings today as well as its the only chance i had, theyre looking a good green and no new yellowing, the only thing that im really worried about is that theyre all really droopy again.. as bad as they were before the flush?

also it might sound daft but when you take cuttings does a node have to be underground for a cutting to root?

[stinkyattic]

You SHOULD try to strip and sink at least one node. The nodes contain the highest concentration of the cells (undifferentiated cells) that are going to divide into your new roots.

If they are droopy... water them!

[smackhead1984]

the soils still damp an inch down though? the one time they looked perky again was straight after the flush... but maybe my ph is dropping again? i'll check it tomorrow anyways, are there any other causes of droopage?

[smackhead1984]

well i tested the pH and it was 5.0! im absolutely confused cos my plant pots pH dropped to 6.0 so i added water and fertalizer that was 7.0/7.5 (and i havent change the formula since then: 3.75ml BioGrow per Litre of tap water).. so i thought that would bring it up and keep it up?

anyways its 5.0, do i add pH Up to my water and fertz til it has a pH equally opposite on the pH scale, which is 9.5 to balance it out?

the plants look good, nice shade of green.. but the droopage is really bad, they were heavily watered this mornin too and still got a droop on now :(

heres a pic of one of em but theyre all very uniform in appearance:

http://www.freefilehosting.co.uk/files/1467/droop.jpg

[stinkyattic]

well i tested the pH and it was 5.0!
anyways its 5.0, do i add pH Up to my water and fertz til it has a pH equally opposite on the pH scale, which is 9.5 to balance it out? :eek:
9.5 is WAY too much of a shock. Go for 7.5, 8.0 TOPS. I don't like the way your soil chemistry is changing so rapidly. I forgot to check pics but if your plants are root-bound and in a peaty soil that sort of catastrophic pH drop is not unreasonable to expect.
Gotta find a better soil. Really that Agway stuff with the humus in it that you can get at farmers supply stores east of the Mississippi is DEAD ON STABLE at 6.8-6.9. The roots can spread out into the new soil and take in nutes in a rhizosphere that ISN'T a crappy pH and locking them out.

[smackhead1984]

whats really confusing me is that yesterday i repotted? so most of the soil the water ran through should of been higher pH anyways cos it was fresh an unused?

btw humidity is 47% and temps are 26-27degrees c.

my settings are wrong too im from the uk, ur a star for all ya help by the way :thumbsup:

[smackhead1984]

update... the plants are still very droopy which is really worrying me, but they are all green, the yellowing never returned green, they just dried up so i snipped em.

Ive snipped all the weak and hidden from light lower branches off too as i think im going to flower in about a week, theyre 11 inches tall having gained about 3 inches or so since repotting.

My humidity is still between 40 and 50 percent, ive placed cups of water all around the grow to try to up it a little. temperature is 26-27 degrees and im just waiting for my heaters with thermostats to arrive one for each area! then i can up my fan usage to 3 times a day (right now its once or twice)

Ive made some more clones from the offcuts too. Hopefully they'll fare better than the ones i took last week, they look ok and green, a little browning along the edge of where ive cut the leaves down, not sure if thats normal though?


let me know what u guys think!

[smackhead1984]

:eek: the plants are curling even more!

just trying to narrow it down for diagnosis:

ive raised the humidity level up to 85% with the cups of water between plants, so it wasnt the low humidity causing it...

ph should be well back up after a week of watering with fertz at a ph of 7.0/7.5...

they look a good shade of green, and no new yellowing, so its not a deficiency or over fertalizing...


only things that i havent got perfect i know of:

water is tap water not left to sit out.
air is only circulated once or twice a day.
temperature probably drops quite a bit overnight.

ive just put in a heater with a thermostat and also thermometer that records the highest an lowest temps today so it'll switch on if the temps drop overnight and will be recorded for me.
I wouldnt of thought the chlorine in the water would be that damaging, i got the impression it only made a grow slightly better, would u say it makes much difference?

maybe eventually i'll try to wire up the fan to a dimmer switch so its always on and running low, but its not likely for a good while to be honest,

any helps much appreciated!

[stinkyattic]

You don't know how much the temperature drops overnight?
And air is only circulating once or twice a day?
you need to be running CONSTANT air circulation and exhaust, and making your temperatures STEADY, with no more than 10'F difference between night and day.

[smackhead1984]

hmm gona be a bit awkward gettin that fan on all the time, its a big one, i'll have to wire it up to a dimmer switch, dunno if that'll be able to handle the wattage so might have to fork out for one of those control boxes with dails on?

the plants have finally perked up dunno if it was the heater keepin temps stable overnight or the ph finally gettin right but its al;ot perkier :)

[Mr. Clandestine]

i'll have to wire it up to a dimmer switch, dunno if that'll be able to handle the wattage so might have to fork out for one of those control boxes with dails on?

I think higher wattage fans and fluorescent fixtures need dimmer switches that are different from a standard light dimmer. Definitely don't install anything that's not rated for the watts being drawn for the fan.

I've seen some 3-way receptacles capable of handling 1000W, but you're right, they're wicked expensive. Still, better to be safe than sorry when you start regulating the current yourself. Used to be able to pick them up from most hardware stores, but I haven't seen any in a while. I'm sure you can find some online. When you do install a switch, you should let it power the fan for several hours at different speed settings. Go in there frequently and check to make sure the fan isn't getting too hot. You'd think this wouldn't be as much of a problem since the fan isn't running at full blast, but for some fans, it apparently can be an issue. Best of luck to ya.

[smackhead1984]

hello mr c glad ur still readin, highest watt for a dimmer i can find on e bay is 400w but i'll keep looking, what do call those proper unit boxes you see on grow dvd's? i cant find any, might be using the wrong term tho...

[stinkyattic]

Instead of a dimmer switch, consider adding a vent to the duct, like the way a vacuum cleaner has a little hole in the sucker thing that you can open to decrease suction and drop items.

[Mr. Clandestine]

Unless you've got a nice chunk of change ($100-$300+USD), Stinky's idea sounds like a good alternative. I know what kind of controller you're talking about, I've seen all sorts of dimmers being used. But it can also be terribly stressful for some fans to have the current regulated. Some might actually get hotter than normal, burn our prematurely, or worse. I can't really give accurate safety tips on them, because I've never used a dimmer on a fan. I've installed plenty of dimmers on lights, but that's a pretty mindless task. Just remember to spend a few days checking on all of the components if you decide to wire up a dimmer switch, and making sure nothings getting too warm.

Take care.

[smackhead1984]

i wanted a dimmer more to lower electricity useage because its already through the roof and want to keep it down as much as possible, im gonna have a good browse on the net and a good think, i'll keep you posted :pimp:

[theelectrician]

dont use a dimmer switch just buy a speed contoller from lowes there the same price.when ui transplanted were the plants rootbound? imo ur containers looked to small 4 a 4 week plant hope this helps