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Rusty Trichome
02-04-2008, 01:28 PM
If nominated, do you believe Obama would have the countries best interests at heart?
I think what a man has been taught to believe in says as much about his attitudes twords others, as does his current beliefs.
I have some real reservations voting for a man to be president, whose "christian" church (Trinity United Church of Christ (http://www.tucc.org/about.htm)) appears as racial as the Sunni 'seperatists'.
Their mag Trumpet News Magazine (http://www.trumpetmag.com/home.cfm) boasts an exclusive interview with his highness Louis Farrakhan, (leader of the nation of islam) on empowerment.
A black christian church having to bring in a radical leader of black islam to speak? Does not sound very christian.
I usually don't give a fuck what church a man goes to, but a black "christian" church that brings in the teachings of radical like Farrakhan, is sketchy at best.
This coupled with the fact that Obama was raised muslim at an early age, gives me great pause. Sounds to me like he never really converted to anything that strayed too far from his islamic roots.
No matter how he is cloaked...Obama is still a risk.

akimbo1013
02-04-2008, 02:15 PM
Well, considering how well our current christian president has done, I am not concerned at all. Bush has yet to act with the countries interest in mind. Plus islam and the nation of islam are completely different and have nothing to do with each other.

Rusty Trichome
02-04-2008, 03:09 PM
Well, considering how well our current christian president has done, I am not concerned at all. Bush has yet to act with the countries interest in mind. So what's your beef...with Bush, with policy, with christians, or all of the above?
Blanket statements like this offer nothing to the point, but sure does side-step the responsibility of knowing what the fuck you are talking about.

Plus islam and the nation of islam are completely different and have nothing to do with each other.

Care to point out the differences? How about backing your views with some facts? The similarities seem remarkably similar in deviciveness and spreading hate for any that are not black or muslim. (or male)
Here's some info to get you a vague understanding of the nation of Islam.

Nation of Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam)
Chapter 5 The origin of God as a Spirit and not a man (http://www.seventhfam.com/temple/books/black_man/blk5.htm)
Chapter 11 Allah, the best knower. (http://www.seventhfam.com/temple/books/black_man/blk11.htm)
The Nation of Islam Exposed (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/4222/noi.html)

And you would be ok with an American president that continues to get his spiritual edification (intellectual, moral, or spiritual improvement; enlightenment) from a church that agrees with the principals and teachings of the nation of Islam sect?

I guess if the only other choice you see is Billary, I can see the conundrum. (A paradoxical, insoluble, or difficult problem; a dilemma)

texas grass
02-04-2008, 04:17 PM
to me here in america it scares me when any president uses their church/belief as part of their policy because they are suposed to be seperated.

i was brought up southern baptist but the older i get the more i see all religion/s are pretty much fanatics. now im not saying every aspect of religion everyone is fanatics cause in every religion most people are very peaceful and understanding, but there is always a group in every religion that is bad

now i believe everyone has their right to religion and its good to find inner peace and if any certain religion helps then thats great but i think theres more to learn about inner peace than any 1 religion can offer


but if obama uses his church or any others that scares me for the nation and my new family. look at whats happening now and how our president is shown the way by god

akimbo1013
02-04-2008, 05:25 PM
My beef is with this idiotic notion that obama will not act in the best interest of the country because he has some ties to islam. Do you think he is going to exterminate the white people or give the country to the terrorists. I think he is smart enough to separate his religious beliefs from his politics. We've seen what a conservative christian as president has done, maybe its time for a change. So what if his church brought in a guest speaker. Do you know the content of his speech or are you just assuming its the "kill whitey" speech. Is it any different from a church bringing in gerry fallwell (spelling?) to give a speech. He's just as conservative and controversial. Lastly I am a muslim, and nobody has criticized the nation of islam more than islam. We don't believe in allah taking human form (a huge part of NOI), no ufo's or whatever, white people being less evolved, don't believe jesus was muslim, etc. There are a ton of differences in the two. Just because they decided to use the koran for there teachings doesn't mean muslims approve, agree or like them. There has never been any teaching of hatred for non-muslim people or women in islam. Women are treated with the utmost respect in islam (don't act like theres no wifebeating in the US). Yes there are fanatics, but they are a very small portion and they do not represent islam. I've spent more time in the middle east than probably anybody on these boards, and yes they hate how one sided america has been in the isreal vs. middle east, and yes they HATE bush, but who doesn't, but they have nothing against the american people. If you think its all burning effigies and yelling "death to the infidels" you are completely wrong. There just trying to survive like everyone else. You should stop watching so much fox news and go check it out yourself before you run your mouth about something you have no clue about.

dragonrider
02-04-2008, 06:38 PM
So what's your beef...with Bush, with policy, with christians, or all of the above?

I know the question was not directed at me, but I have a lot of beefs with Bush. Many of those complaints would be off topic, but there are plenty of complaints I have with Bush that are directly related to him pushing his overzealous religious beliefs to the point where it affects ME. Bush's religious beliefs are what drive his positions on abortion. They are what drive him to work against stem cell research. And they drive his positions on the right to die. I don't appreciate it when a politician uses his power to shove his religious beliefs down my throat and to take away my rights to proper medical care. The Christian right has been doing this kind of thing for a long time, and now they are freaked out by the idea that Obama might do the same with some kind of imaginary Muslim fanaticism. He is not a Muslim fanatic. He is not a Muslim at all. And he does not strike me as the type to push his religious beliefs on anyone anyway.

As for the visit to his church by Farrakahn, it is totally irrelevant. It's been a long time since I went to chruch regularly, but my familiy's church used to have guest speakers who did not share the same beliefs as my church all the time. We had Jewish and Muslim speakers as well as speakers from different Christian denominations. It's part of understanding people who think different from you. I doubt Obama had anything to do with bringing in this speaker, or even attended that particular speach, but even if he did, I don't see how it is a detriment to have a president who is open minded and tries to understand the points of view of others in this country. Black Muslims are citizens of this country, and even if you do not believe the way they do, a president should at least understand where they are coming from. You can be sure the Christian Right does not attempt to understand others in this country.

I think this kind of propaganda is basically a smear/fear campaign and has no basis in fact whatsoever.

akimbo1013
02-04-2008, 06:39 PM
Basically I find it very offensive that you find obama untrustworthy simply because he has some ties to islam. I think this probably belongs in the conspiracies section.

dragonrider
02-04-2008, 08:29 PM
Basically I find it very offensive that you find obama untrustworthy simply because he has some ties to islam. I think this probably belongs in the conspiracies section.

You weren't replying to me, right? Because I totally agree with you.

To me the ironic part of this thing is that the people who seem most concerned about Obama pushing his religious beliefs are the very same ones who I feel have pushed their own religious agenda on the rest of us. Obama isn't Muslim, but you get Evangelical Christians raising the specter of Sharia law --- they say he might be Muslim, so we need to be careful or we could end up with a Muslim pushing his beliefs on us. What a load of racist crap from a bunch of people who have felt free to use their political power to push their own religious agenda!

I personally don't care what a politician's religion is or whether they don't have a religion at all, as long as they faithfully esecute their secular duties and are not driven by overzealous religion beliefs. I'm just as worried about overzealous Christains as I am about overzealous Muslims.

Psycho4Bud
02-04-2008, 08:31 PM
Basically I find it very offensive that you find obama untrustworthy simply because he has some ties to islam. I think this probably belongs in the conspiracies section.

I've thought about this and I believe it should stay here for the following reason: Every aspect of a persons life, professional and personal, is under the magnifying glass when they run for of office. Faith, age, friends, contributors...it's all on the plate.

This is the sort of thing that some may see as an issue, others not; like McCains age for example. When ya run for public office ya better have a VERY clean past or an excuse if there are a few stains. Hell, in ANY other political forum, his drug history would have been discussed by now. LOL

While I'm spreading the word, lets keep the debates to just that without the slashing. There have been a couple of recent threads that have gone past the line and ya all know how I hate to clean up the mess. Thank you for your cooperation!!:D

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

dragonrider
02-04-2008, 08:54 PM
I've thought about this and I believe it should stay here for the following reason: Every aspect of a persons life, professional and personal, is under the magnifying glass when they run for of office. Faith, age, friends, contributors...it's all on the plate.

Yes, this is the right forum.

To me the legitimate issue is not so much what a person's religion is. The issue is to what extent their religion will affect their policy agenda. Will a given candidate use their political power to push a religious agenda?

Many of the bioethics and medical ethics debates about government policy toward abortion, stem cell research, and the right to die have moral dimensions that are open to legitimate debate. Laws often do have a moral dimension, not just a pratctical way to manage society, so bringing in the moral debate is legitimate. But I do not like to see religion brought into these dabates. It's one thing to argue that abortion is morally wrong, but it's another thing to argue that God says abortion is morally wrong and therefor we need laws. I don't think it is right to bring religion into the debate in America.

akimbo1013
02-04-2008, 09:04 PM
You weren't replying to me, right? Because I totally agree with you.

To me the ironic part of this thing is that the people who seem most concerned about Obama pushing his religious beliefs are the very same ones who I feel have pushed their own religious agenda on the rest of us. Obama isn't Muslim, but you get Evangelical Christians raising the specter of Sharia law --- they say he might be Muslim, so we need to be careful or we could end up with a Muslim pushing his beliefs on us. What a load of racist crap from a bunch of people who have felt free to use their political power to push their own religious agenda!

I personally don't care what a politician's religion is or whether they don't have a religion at all, as long as they faithfully esecute their secular duties and are not driven by overzealous religion beliefs. I'm just as worried about overzealous Christains as I am about overzealous Muslims.

Nah man, I wasn't replying to you dragonrider. Just summing up my second post. I think we both posted at pretty much the same time. I'm in complete agreement with you.

Rusty Trichome
02-04-2008, 09:26 PM
My comments were not a slam on Islam, but a slam, if you will in regards to the similarities between the NoI, and the Trinity United Church of Christ.

My point was that I have personally never been to, nor would I even attend a christian church that teaches seperatism, hate for another race, hate and lack of respect for others' religious beliefs. That is nothing at all like any christian doctrine I've ever heard of. As a standing member of the church he has attended for years, in my opinion, Obama is not qualified to represent the American puiblic.

He claims to be this great uniter...according to his churches beliefs...well, give a good read right from the words of his church, as links for this were previously provided.

I've got male friends, female friends, white friends, black friends, a couple of jewish friends, some christian friends, and a buddy from Lebanon. Attempts to label me a racist or biggot fall on deaf ears. Just read some of the things on their own website(s). The bulk of you would be quite surprised.

dragonrider
02-04-2008, 10:32 PM
My comments were not a slam on Islam, but a slam, if you will in regards to the similarities between the NoI, and the Trinity United Church of Christ.

Well, I think the time for the kinds of approaches to racism that the Nation of Islam preaches is pretty much gone, but I do think that at one time they and their leaders such as Malcom X made a great contribution to the Civil Rights movement. A bit radical, but at the time it was understandable. I do not agree with their principles in general for this time in history.

Anyway, I'd say iall of that is irrelevant. Barack Obama is not a member of the Nation of Islam, is he? It's a very weak connection to say that the Nation of Islam is wrong, and a magazine had an interview with the NoI's leader, and that magazine is operated by Obama's church, so therefore we need to worry about Obama. That's ridiculous.

Barack Obama has some interesting views about the role of faith.

Here is a link to faith topics on his website: Barack Obama | Change We Can Believe In | Faith (http://www.barackobama.com/issues/faith/)

Here is a link to a PDF file about his views on faith: http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaonFaith.pdf

Here is a link to a speech he gave about the role of faith:
Barack Obama | Change We Can Believe In | (http://www.barackobama.com/2006/06/28/call_to_renewal_keynote_address.php)

I think Obama has one of the best-thought-out and inclusive views on the role of faith that I have ever heard any politician express.

Psycho4Bud
02-05-2008, 12:05 AM
Didn't I give a heads-up? Seems there are some that still believe that Club Gitmo should remain open. I cleaned this thread up.....lets try to keep it into a reasonable debate.

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

Rusty Trichome
02-05-2008, 12:39 PM
Anyway, I'd say iall of that is irrelevant. Barack Obama is not a member of the Nation of Islam, is he? It's a very weak connection to say that the Nation of Islam is wrong, and a magazine had an interview with the NoI's leader, and that magazine is operated by Obama's church, so therefore we need to worry about Obama. That's ridiculous.

Barack Obama has some interesting views about the role of faith.
I think Obama has one of the best-thought-out and inclusive views on the role of faith that I have ever heard any politician express.
The church a man chooses to attend, say's a lot about the values he holds dear.
Were you a KKK member, (a "christian" organization) but you only attend meetings once a month, you would still be a friggin' KKK member. Guilt by association? You bet.
The Trinity United church he attends preaches division, hate, and a doctrine of superiority. Obama regularly attends and supports this church. I doubt that the preacher bites his tongue while Obama is in attendance. He doesn't change his sermons to fit into Obama's image. The values delivered to the congregation via a pulpit of hate, are appalling and racist.
The doctrine of the Trinity United Church of Christ holds dear the same devicive, racist tennents as the Nation of Islam.

Doesn't matter what color, trash is trash.

Breukelen advocaat
02-05-2008, 02:57 PM
From Barack Hussein Obama's Call to Renewal Keynote Address, June 28, 2006, Washington, DC:

You need to come to church in the first place precisely because you are first of this world, not apart from it. You need to embrace Christ precisely because you have sins to wash away - because you are human and need an ally in this difficult journey.

It was because of these newfound understandings that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity United Church of Christ on 95th Street in the Southside of Chicago one day and affirm my Christian faith. It came about as a choice, and not an epiphany. I didn't fall out in church. The questions I had didn't magically disappear. But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side, I felt that I heard God's spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth.http://www.barackobama.com/2006/06/2...te_address.php (http://www.barackobama.com/2006/06/28/call_to_renewal_keynote_address.php)

When someone is on his knees in submission to a mythical savior god, he is not a man. I would tell Obama to get up off the floor, wake up, grow up, find some self-respect, and maybe then he'd be worth consideration as a leader - but certainly not in his current psychological state. Until he can shed the mental shackles of faith, he is nothing more than a slave to the opiate we call religion. With his current level of maturity, due to the religious beliefs and needs that he has developed, he is not qualified to serve as leader of the United States of America in any way, shape or form that is worthy of the position.

Rusty Trichome
02-05-2008, 03:23 PM
....lets try to keep it into a reasonable debate.
Have a good one!:jointsmile:
Am trying.
Glad to oblige, but c'mon...this is the political forum. All reasonableness tends to be thrown out the window after the first few sentences.
...So frustrating having a battle of wits, with unarmed responders, lol.
p.s. You wouldn't happen to have one of those Gitmo pix with Ron Paul building sandcastles, would you..?
(Sorry...I just can't help myself, being Super Duper Tuesday and all.)

Psycho4Bud
02-05-2008, 03:56 PM
Am trying.
Glad to oblige, but c'mon...this is the political forum. All reasonableness tends to be thrown out the window after the first few sentences.

I've learned to back off from the keyboard, do a quick hit, then read over what I've done. I/WE know things can get heated in this area, lets just try our best to hold back on the insults. That shit always progresses, then I/WE have to start deleting posts, next damn thing ya know there's another one in Club Gitmo. It costs alot to hold all them prisoners ya know. LOL

Sorry about Ron.....this is all I have to offer at the time.:D

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

New2Dro
02-05-2008, 04:26 PM
Personally, I feel like no presidential candidate can be trusted! They are all in a race to appeal to the masses, so there going to say any thing and every thing to appeal to who ever they think will vote for them. I'm from Florida, and I didn't vote for Bush and I prayed the recount would have changed things like many other Floridians. Deep down everyone in Florida knew that the events that came to pass during the Bush administration were inevitable if he won! Just look at how his brother screwed up Florida educational system with the FCAT testing. Mind you I was in high school when the FCAT was first implemented in a testing faze and I past it, so I didn't have to take the HSCT. But many of my class mates didn't. So the were forced to take the High School Competency Test HSCT, and we were honors students. Now it's the standard and children are being held back at all grade levels. I mean even elementary students. Bottom line is...

The United States needs a president that the can and will reestablish our country as a force to be reckoned with. And to do so America as a whole must unite with its new president. The terrorist took advantage of the fact that our country was divided, and capitalized on the moment!!! The issue is not the war on terrorism, the war on drugs, or same sex mirage! The issue is that our constitutional right is the pursuit of happiness, and everyone is worried about the next person. :jointsmile: If everyone only worries about there self, when it comes to happiness! Then we can focus on the stuff that really matters! And other countries can stop exploiting on the weakness caused by our division! :rastasmoke:

dragonrider
02-05-2008, 04:46 PM
The church a man chooses to attend, say's a lot about the values he holds dear.
Were you a KKK member, (a "christian" organization) but you only attend meetings once a month, you would still be a friggin' KKK member. Guilt by association? You bet.
The Trinity United church he attends preaches division, hate, and a doctrine of superiority. Obama regularly attends and supports this church. I doubt that the preacher bites his tongue while Obama is in attendance. He doesn't change his sermons to fit into Obama's image. The values delivered to the congregation via a pulpit of hate, are appalling and racist.
The doctrine of the Trinity United Church of Christ holds dear the same devicive, racist tennents as the Nation of Islam.

Doesn't matter what color, trash is trash.

I agree with you about the KKK point you made, but I do not agree with you about the nature of the Trinity United Church. You say they are like the Nation of Islam. I say they are not. So we will probably have to just disagree on that. I didn't find that message of hate and divisiveness you were speaking about when I checked the link you posted to Trinity United Church. They are proud to be historically black, but I didn't see any hate there.

I posted a link to a speech Obama made about faith and incusiveness. Here is what Obama said in that speech about why he chose a historically black church.


It wasn't until after college, when I went to Chicago to work as a community organizer for a group of Christian churches, that I confronted my own spiritual dilemma.

I was working with churches, and the Christians who I worked with recognized themselves in me. They saw that I knew their Book and that I shared their values and sang their songs. But they sensed that a part of me that remained removed, detached, that I was an observer in their midst.

And in time, I came to realize that something was missing as well -- that without a vessel for my beliefs, without a commitment to a particular community of faith, at some level I would always remain apart, and alone.

And if it weren't for the particular attributes of the historically black church, I may have accepted this fate. But as the months passed in Chicago, I found myself drawn - not just to work with the church, but to be in the church.

For one thing, I believed and still believe in the power of the African-American religious tradition to spur social change, a power made real by some of the leaders here today. Because of its past, the black church understands in an intimate way the Biblical call to feed the hungry and cloth the naked and challenge powers and principalities. And in its historical struggles for freedom and the rights of man, I was able to see faith as more than just a comfort to the weary or a hedge against death, but rather as an active, palpable agent in the world. As a source of hope.

Rusty Trichome
02-05-2008, 05:16 PM
Just tryin' to keep it real, Drider...
What they say is often not how they act.
A very informative read.

AmericanDaily.Ws - The Trinity United Church of Christ and Louis Farrakhan by David J. Jonsson , 01/25/08 (http://americandaily.ws/index.php/article/345)

Love the pix. Psycho, thanks.

akimbo1013
02-06-2008, 04:44 AM
The similarities seem remarkably similar in deviciveness and spreading hate for any that are not black or muslim. (or male)


My comments were not a slam on Islam

Uh, that sounds like a slam to me. Or were you trying to compliment muslims by saying they spread hate toward women and non-muslims:wtf: And you spelled divisiveness wrong.

Rusty Trichome
02-06-2008, 02:43 PM
And you spelled divisiveness wrong.
OMG...I am soooo sorry. And that is such an important part of this post.
What a prissy-assed comment...Oh grand poobah-of-spellcheck, but right back at ya.
At least I capitalized Obama.:jointsmile:

My beef is with this idiotic notion that obama ...

The comments were directed twords the NoI, and the TUCoC. Each cloaks themselves in the christian robe under a set of principles that are obviously not christian, and no...not Islamic, either. Deciept and hate.
They are just another sect from the word go.

Normally I shy away from cut-n-paste, as it is a very lazy practice. But since nobody has bothered to comment on the above link, and I haven't had my coffee yet, I'll just copy it here:


Friday, January 25, 2008
The Trinity United Church of Christ and Louis Farrakhan
General piece by David J. Jonsson
(This is the second of a series of articles on The Clash of Ideologies and Leftist/Marxist - Islamist Alliance.) - It is important in considering the following to note that Barack Hussein Obama is a member of the Trinity United Church of Christ and according to their website: The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision. When Obama moved to Chicago and became a community organizer, he found it expedient to choose a Christian church to join.

Recall this is a church and a mentor who Obama has relied upon to shape his views, to be his sounding board; the church is the largest recipient of his charity dollars; he proudly states that he admires the church and Jeremiah Wright, Junior. He prayed with Wright before he announced his candidacy for President. He is a beacon for Obama.

Julia Speller, a leader at Trinity and author of Walkin?? the Talk: Keepin?? the Faith in Africentric Congregations, notes in her book that the church offers courses in Swahili and that its youth programs, Intonjane and Isuthu, take their names from Swahili words for coming into manhood and womanhood. The congregation celebrates the Kwanzaa holiday and Umoja Karamu, a Thanksgiving Day service that narrates the story of the black family from its West African origins to today with dancing, drumming and storytelling.

The Celebration of Kwanzaa
Kwanzaa was invented in 1966 by a black radical, Ron Karenga, aka Dr. Maulana Karenga. Karenga a former black militant, a Marxist and a convicted felon was a founder of United Slaves, a violent nationalist rival to the Black Panthers. Claiming to have the unity of black people in mind, Karenga committed most of his crimes against blacks. Just five years after his invention of Kwanzaa, he was convicted of torturing two black women by stripping them naked, beating them with electrical cords, placing a hot iron into the mouth of one and mangling the toe of the other in a vice. During the ordeal, he forced them to drink detergent. See: Why Black Christians Shouldn??t Celebrate Kwanzaa by La Shawn Barber

Participants acknowledge their African roots and promote seven harmless-sounding principles: unity, self-determination, collective work and responsibility, cooperative economics, purpose, creativity and faith. The seven principles of Kwanzaa are the very same seven principles of the Symbionese Liberation Army. Each snakehead stood for one of the SLA??s revolutionary principles: Umoja, Kujichagulia, Ujima, Ujamaa, Nia, Kuumba and Imani, the exact same seven ??principles? of Kwanzaa.

While they sound commendable, the guiding principle behind Kwanzaa is based on race, not on faith in the one true living God and Savior - Jesus Christ.

Dr. Karenga??s hatred of God-fearing religions prompted him to create his own system of principles that apparently he hoped would steer men away from what he felt was a weakness??a belief in God. An example of his opinion of religion is the following quote from his book, Kawaida Theory (1980) :Reference: The Seven Principles of Kwanzaa

??Belief in spooks who threaten us if we don??t worship them and demand we turn over our destiny and daily lives must be categorized as spookism and condemned.? pg 27

And also when he says of Christianity and Judaism in his list of negatives of religion:

??...it is a simplistic and often erroneous answer to existential ignorance fear, powerlessness and alienation. An example is the Hebrew myth of the six-day creation and the tower of Babel, or Christian myths of resurrection, heaven and hell;? Kawaida Theory, p 23.
??...it often denies and diminishes human worth, capacity, potential and achievement. In Christian and Jewish mythology, humans are born in sin, cursed with mythical ancestors who??ve sinned and brought the wrath of an angry God on every generation??s head. ... If a mythical being has done, does and will do everything, what??s our relevance and role in the world?? K.T. p 24.

Over the years, Karenga has altered his pagan intentions to attract more black Christians into the fold. He now claims that Kwanzaa is a time of giving ??reverence to the Creator.? Just what creator he refers to is unclear. Red flags should jump out at any Bible-believing Christian when someone reveres a ??Creator? but denies the deity of Christ.

And in spite of claiming Kwanzaa to be a time of giving ??reverence to the Creator? as he claims now (Kwanzaa: A Celebration of Family, Community and Culture,, pg 19), his disdain for prayer of any type is shown in his early writings.

??Thus if persons want to fast or pray, read numbers, stare at stars, chant spookistic slogans or anything similar, they may, but is is imperative that they not add these to or pretend they are a part of the principles and practices of Kwanzaa.? Kawaida Theory, p 15.

It wouldn??t be erroneous to say that Karenga intended to create a celebration that steered Blacks away from God, but to celebrate and honor man instead. He makes this clear when he makes the following statement in his book, Kawaida Theory:

??When messenger Muhammad taught that we are Gods and can make history and remake the world in our own image and interests, he set a good example.? p 27.

Christians must understand that Karenga intends Kwanzaa to be an alternative to Christmas so that blacks can celebrate themselves rather than the birth of Christ. Kwanzaa is not an innocuous celebration of black history. It attempts to spiritualize that history, replacing Christ-centered theology with pagan principles. For Christians, the only principles by which to live are found in God??s word, The Holy Bible.

Kawaida Theory: An African Communitarian Philosophy was written by Maulana Karenga in 2003. Dr. Maulana Karenga, activist-scholar, university professor, creator of Kwanzaa, author, Seba (moral teacher) in the ancient Egyptian Maatian (Kawaida) tradition, stands as a major figure in the African American liberation movement & in African American social-ethical & cultural philosophy. In our politically-correct climate, even President George W. Bush, a believer in Christ, feels obligated to praise this ritual.

??Kwanzaa was created to introduce and reinforce seven basic values of African culture which contribute to building and reinforcing family, community and culture among African American people as well as Africans throughout the world African community.? ??The Official Kwanzaa Website??

When Karenga was asked to distinguish Kawaida, the philosophy underlying Kwanzaa, from classical Marxism, he essentially explained that under Kawaida, ??we also hate whites?. (Now how do public schools and the the Trinity United Church of Christ promote a holiday based on racism and violence?) While taking the ??best of early Chinese and Cuban socialism? which one assumes would exclude the executions of rival ideologies, forced abortions, imprisonment of homosexuals and slave labor??Kawaida practitioners believe one??s racial identity ??determines life conditions, life chances and self-understanding.? Now there??s an inclusive philosophy for you!
There is a movement that started 2,000 years before Kwanzaa; it goes well beyond mere ??unity? and ??faith? to establish that we are all equal in God??s eyes.
??There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus? Galatians 3:28.

This movement has two simple tenets; Love God & love people!

In the Mainstream?
Trinity is well within the mainstream of the black church, and is remarkable in the mainline world only for its size and influence and for its handful of celebrity members, like Oprah Winfrey and hip-hop artist Common.
As noted on Biography.com Farrakhan, Louis (1933?? ) : ??Black Muslim leader. Born Louis Eugene Walcott on May 11, 1933 in the Bronx, New York. He grew up in Roxbury, Massachusetts, and was converted to the Nation of Islam by Malcolm X. Following Malcolm X??s defection (1963??4), Farrakhan became the national representative for Elijah Muhammad?. In 1995, along with other prominent black leaders such as Al Sharpton and Barack Obama, Farrakhan helped lead the Million Man March on Washington.

It should be also be noted that as reported in the New York Post of January 18, BARACK??S UN-RIGHTEOUS REV: ??In a 2007 interview with The New York Times, Wright said: ??When [Obama??s] enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli [to visit Moammar Khadafy] with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell.???

Obama??s campaign released a statement from the senator on January 15.

??I decry racism and anti-Semitism in every form and strongly condemn the anti-Semitic statements made by Minister Farrakhan,? Obama said in the statement. ?I assume that Trumpet Magazine made its own decision to honor Farrakhan based on his efforts to rehabilitate ex-offenders, but it is not a decision with which I agree.?

The statement ignored the point that his minister and friend had spoken adoringly of Farrakhan and that Wright??s church was behind the ??Rev. Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. Lifetime Achievement Trumpeteer award? on Farrakhan to the Nation of Islam leader. Award was presented at the 2007 Trumpet Gala held on November 2, at the Hyatt Regency Chicago. Not only is Trumpet owned and produced by Wright??s church out of the church??s offices, Wright??s daughters serve as publisher and executive editor of the magazine.

??When Minister Louis Farrakhan speaks, America listens?For his commitment to truth, education and leadership, we honor Minister Louis Farrakhan with the Rev. Jeremiah W. Wright Jr. Lifetime Achievement Award.? The award video is available at: YouTube - Trumpet Gala 2007 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXS_YrYp07Q)

Cohen reported in the Post that Obama??s chief strategist, David Axelrod, had said that Obama and his minister disagree on many issues and Farrakhan was one of them.

Prior to Obama??s statement of January 15, (The Award was presented November 9, two months prior to his statement.) he did not denounce ties between Pastor Wright and Farrakhan, nor has Obama rejected the anti-Israel diatribes of Wright. Nor did Obama denounce Farrakhan when he helped lead the Million Man March in 1995 in Washington. One has to ask if in his condemnation of the remarks of Farrakhan, he is also condemning the Nation of Islam.

Louis Farrakhan??s Travels to Africa
Louis Farrakhan was traveling through Africa in February 1996, where he has met with, among others, Libya??s Muammar Qaddafi and Nelson Mandela in South Africa.

However, Farrakhan??s trip got major media attention when he met with South African president Nelson Mandela. The NOI head hypocritically played up to Mandela by appealing for Muslims and Christians and Jews to work together for the common good. Nonetheless, Mandela felt the need to distance himself from the racialist NOI demagogue, admonishing him about the ANC principle of nonracialism.

Farrakhan launched his friendship tour in order to pursue his political and social aims and projects and for evident self-enhancement, newly magnified by his leadership of the Million Man March in October 1996. Particularly in light of the Nation of Islam (NOI) leader??s heightened prominence, it behooves all those who struggle for black emancipation to look even more sharply and closely at the aims and practices of Farrakhan??s movement as shown in concrete circumstances.

Farrakhan??s Sudan Connection
Farrakhan??s support to the Sudanese slave masters is yet another example of his utterly reactionary program and purpose.

As part of its attempt to channel black anger against capitalist oppression into anti-Semitism, such tracts include The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews, the by Historical Research Department of the Nation of Islam that has long purveyed the absurd claim that 75 percent of slaves in the American South before the Civil War were owned by Jews. The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan says of this book? ??I HAVE BEEN VINDICATED.?
As pointed out in Farrakhan Is Bad News for Black People (WV No. 600, 13 May 1994): In reality, the not very numerous Jews in the South in 1860 owned a tiny fraction of the four million slaves, and only a tiny proportion of the Atlantic slave trade involved Jewish merchants. Arab merchants and black African tribal chiefs were heavily involved in the Atlantic slave trade, too. But of course Farrakhan disappears this incontrovertible historical fact.

In a New York Times article from Reuters on February 10, 1996, Farrakhan Said to Pledge Support to Sudan.

??The leader of the Nation of Islam, Louis Farrakhan, was quoted today as saying American Muslims backed the Sudan against ??unjust plots.???

??Mr. Farrakhan, who met with President Umar Hasan al-Bashir and the spiritual leader Hassan al-Turabi during a five-hour visit, was quoted in the Government-owned newspaper, As Sudan al Hadeeth, as calling on Muslims throughout the world to confront ??Western attempts? against Islam.?

??The Sudan says a United Nations Security Council resolution demanding the extradition of three men suspected of trying to kill President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt last year is a plot to impose sanctions. The Government today asked the three suspects to surrender within a week. The newspaper also quoted Mr. Turabi as saying that Mr. Farrakhan??s visit, which comes as the United States is withdrawing its diplomats from Khartoum for security reasons, showed that the American people supported the Sudanese.?

Sudanese leaders General Omar Hassan al-Bashir and Sheik Hassan al-Turabi, of course they deny that slavery exists in their country.

??Beginning in early December 1997, Louis Farrakhan and his 24 member delegation embarked upon the third ??World Friendship Tour.? Farrakhan stated that he ???would like to demonstrate how diplomacy and friendly relations should be carried out? while paying visits to 52 nations on the tour; in the end, the total number of nations visited was 37.?

??The timing of Farrakhan??s visit to Libya, December 21, coincided with the ninth anniversary of the bombing of Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. Visiting with Libyan leader Muammar Qadaffi, he claimed that President Clinton was surrounded by advisors who were Israeli agents. He also claimed that he never said that Jews hated Black people, only that they exploited them.?

??In mid January, Farrakhan arrived in Khartoum, Sudan and met with Sudanese President Omar al Beshir, Islamic leader Hassan al Turabi (Secretary General of the Popular Islamic Conference), and other officials. The Nation of Islam??s web site reported that Farrakhan claimed that ??Islamic militants were not to blame for the massacres carried out in Algeria and were the victims of anti Islamic machinations.? He reportedly told worshippers at a Khartoum mosque that ??It is a challenge and a test for Muslims in Sudan to be the target of plots and conspiracies that aim at obstructing the spread of Islam in Africa.? It is important to note that the Minister continues to be a supporter of this Islamic extremist dictatorship and continues to ignore reports of Black enslavement in the country. He also apparently said nothing about the widespread starvation going on in the Sudan.?

United Church of Christ Response
On January 11, 2008 the United Church of Christ website posted an by J. Bennett: Thomas denounces smear campaign against UCC??s largest congregation . Rev. John H. Thomas, the UCC??s general minister and president, called the e-mail-driven claims ??absurd, mean-spirited and politically motivated.?

??Thomas said. ??They contain misleading statements obviously meant to undermine the integrity of one of our most vibrant, mission-driven congregations.?? Obama, who is seeking the Democratic nomination for president, has been a member of Trinity UCC for 20 years.?

??Trinity is a destination church for many members of the UCC, a multi-racial, multi-cultural denomination that is largely Caucasian,? Thomas pointed out. ??When in Chicago, many UCC members flock to Trinity to share in and learn from its vibrant ministries, dynamic worship and justice-minded membership. Contrary to the claims made in these hateful emails, UCC members know Trinity to be one of the most welcoming, hospitable and generous congregations in our denomination.?

No reaction From Oprah Winfrey
It is interesting that Oprah Winfrey has not issued a similar denouncement of Farrakhan and the ties between Trinity United Church of Christ and Farrakhan. Obama??s and Winfrey??s failure to do so suggest that they not only condones much of what Wright says, they agree with it.

David J. Jonsson

Did you read any of this? Any 'facts' you would like to add?

akimbo1013
02-06-2008, 04:49 PM
Since when did a biased conservative glorified internet blog (american daily) become 'fact'. Next time why don't you quote the editorials page of the ASU school newspaper next time, they're probably more reputable. I really could care less about your views on obama, but when I see somebody insulting my people, I feel the need to defend them. I realize that the bulk of your comments were directed at the NOI and his church, but that doesn't mean you didn't insult insult Islam (as your contradictory statements in my previous post clearly shows). You've really yet to give anything with any actual substance just biased paranoid speculation. Now I am going to smoke some NYC Diesel and let this stupid thread die.

Rusty Trichome
02-06-2008, 05:32 PM
Since when did a biased conservative glorified internet blog (american daily) become 'fact'. Next time why don't you quote the editorials page of the ASU school newspaper next time
Same reasons you chose liberally biased info. I frequently point out dissenting arguments to the bullshit I find annoying, repulsive and irresponsible. If you can not see there is another side to a story, you deserve what you get. A biased counterpoint.

If you wish to discuss an issue based on all the facts of an issue, then fine, I fully respect the challenge. I do not respect someone tossing their two cents into the discussion, when all they really want to do is gossip. I also have a hard time respecting a response that points out completely irrelevant side notes on completely different issues. Guess it's the ole toss all the shit on the wall to see what sticks method of debate? An inferior method of debating an issue, which commands no respect.

As far as insulting Islam, well, you see it your way, I'll see it mine. Were I to insult Islam, I would be very clear as to what offends me, and why. My opinion is free. I express it accordingly. I often say what I mean, without fear of peer pressure telling me I need to think a certain way.

And now I'm going to go smoke some Sour Diesel, and see who's on TMZ.com today, lol.

FreshNugz
02-06-2008, 05:42 PM
I hope this isn't taken the wrong way or anything
but insluting islam is as easy as walking your dog. happens every day....and sometimes its far out there.
Doesn't take much to insult Islamic believers...just my two cents.

Rusty Trichome
02-06-2008, 05:45 PM
Shoot, almost forgot...Yes, I do have some strong feelings about people bringing Sharia law to the US and expecting us to respect it. But that will be for another thread.

dragonrider
02-06-2008, 06:12 PM
I also have a hard time respecting a response that points out completely irrelevant side notes on completely different issues. Guess it's the ole toss all the shit on the wall to see what sticks method of debate? An inferior method of debating an issue, which commands no respect.

The thing is, I think the article you quoted is doing exactly what you describe as an inferior method of debate. It never makes a strong connection between Obama and all the negative points it makes about Louis Farakhan. All it says is Obama respects Wright, Wright respects Farakhan, Farakhan did bad things, therefore Obama is in favor of the bad things Farakhan did. It's pathetically weak. I think it's doing exactly what you were describing --- it throws a bunch of neagative crap on the wall about Lious Farakhan and Kwanzaa and hopes some of it will spatter onto Obama.

You have Obama's statement:

??I decry racism and anti-Semitism in every form and strongly condemn the anti-Semitic statements made by Minister Farrakhan,? Obama said in the statement. ?I assume that Trumpet Magazine made its own decision to honor Farrakhan based on his efforts to rehabilitate ex-offenders, but it is not a decision with which I agree.?

And you have this:

Cohen reported in the Post that Obama??s chief strategist, David Axelrod, had said that Obama and his minister disagree on many issues and Farrakhan was one of them.

It seems to me like he's adressed the issue. He does not support Farakhan.

FreshNugz
02-06-2008, 06:23 PM
Shoot, almost forgot...Yes, I do have some strong feelings about people bringing Sharia law to the US and expecting us to respect it. But that will be for another thread.

yeah man..i disagree w/ that too!! and they want it in Canada!!!
Only thing is...our 'charter of rights and freedoms' even protects that in a small way.
still..charter or no charter..over my dead body. this is canada..we use constitutional law...not some cut your hand off shit.

Psycho4Bud
02-06-2008, 06:54 PM
You have Obama's statement:

??I decry racism and anti-Semitism in every form and strongly condemn the anti-Semitic statements made by Minister Farrakhan,? Obama said in the statement. ?I assume that Trumpet Magazine made its own decision to honor Farrakhan based on his efforts to rehabilitate ex-offenders, but it is not a decision with which I agree.?

And you have this:

Cohen reported in the Post that Obama??s chief strategist, David Axelrod, had said that Obama and his minister disagree on many issues and Farrakhan was one of them.

It seems to me like he's adressed the issue. He does not support Farakhan.

Personally, if "I" were so sincere about this issue and apparently more with the church....I'd find a different one out of respect for myself and people that look to me for some sort of guidance.

It's like saying that he stops into the Bunny Ranch once a week but doesn't believe in prostitution.

Have a good one!:s4:

dragonrider
02-06-2008, 07:32 PM
Personally, if "I" were so sincere about this issue and apparently more with the church....I'd find a different one out of respect for myself and people that look to me for some sort of guidance.

It's like saying that he stops into the Bunny Ranch once a week but doesn't believe in prostitution.

Have a good one!:s4:

It's not right to expect a person to give up his church over something like this. It's possible to disagree with the leadership of an organization and still find value in the organization, and I'm sure this church is invloved in many valuable activities.

I don't attend church now, but when I was a kid my family attended a church. My parents found a lot of value in it. There was a great sense of community. The church was involved in a lot of beneficial charitable activities. I found out years later that apparently the Dutch Reform Church is also the church of South Africa and was somehow involved in apartheid at the time --- I'm not exactly sure how they are connected, but according to my mother, they are. Anyway, I never saw anything overtly racist in the church, and I know for a fact that my parents were not racist in any way. I can't imagine them feeling they had to leave that church that they loved because of the apparent racist beliefs of some of the higher members of the international organization.

Another example from my own life is the Boy Scouts. I was a scout and I loved it. There was great value in that organization and the experiences I had there. At some point the Boy Scout leadership decided that they would ban gay members and leaders. I never remember any kind of homophobia in my troop, and I am not homophobic. I can't imagine being expected to give up that organization because of some dumbass policy at the highest level.

No church is going to completely escape taint. If Obama was Catholic, you wouldn't assume he was a pedophile if he refused to convert just becasue some priest was caught with his pants down. You wouldn't assume he was a Nazi just because the pope was affiliated with the Nazi youth when he was younger. You don't assume Romney is a polygamaist, do you? If a person disavows something they do not believe in, you should give them the benefit of the doubt unless you catch them in a lie.

Just as no good orgaization can fully escape taint, not all orgaizations that you might disagree with are 100% bad either. I think the Nation of Islam is too militant and separatist for my tastes, and I do not agree with leadership figures like Farrakhan. But the NoI has done some good things as well. They successfully rehabilitate criminals, they value education, they shun dangerous drugs and alcohol, they teach people self respect and pride. I do not agree with many things they do, but if we're being honest, we should give them their due as well.

Rusty Trichome
02-06-2008, 07:38 PM
The thing is, I think the article you quoted is doing exactly what you describe as an inferior method of debate. It never makes a strong connection between Obama and all the negative points it makes about Louis Farakhan. All it says is Obama respects Wright, Wright respects Farakhan, Farakhan did bad things, therefore Obama is in favor of the bad things Farakhan did. It's pathetically weak. I think it's doing exactly what you were describing --- it throws a bunch of neagative crap on the wall about Lious Farakhan and Kwanzaa and hopes some of it will spatter onto Obama.

Yup. Isn't it frustrating...? I've spent the last two days waiting for someone to read the article and comment on the damn thing, and it's source. No one mentioned anything to do about the article, and yet continue to rant. Yes the intent of the article was clearly to be a hatchet-job. Same as the liberal anti-america bullshit y'all spout daily without checking into the facts.

In adopting the "question authority" mindset, I just have to ask...
Those that teach you we need to question authority, who is it among you that are questioning their authority? Like intellectual sheep to a slaughter, you never seem to question the source or the information as long as it fits neatly in your "I Hate Bush" philosophy.
Guess as long as there is no responsibility twords honesty, it's easy to justify.

Obama's association with and being a major contributor to, TUCoC for 20 years qualifies him to be judged by the doctrine from that church. This type of doctrine hasn't just happened overnight, but has been there since the day he stepped foot inside that church.
Am I afraid of that doctrine? No, but am somewhat disgusted by it.

dragonrider
02-06-2008, 07:47 PM
Yup. Isn't it frustrating...? I've spent the last two days waiting for someone to read the article and comment on the damn thing, and it's source. No one mentioned anything to do about the article, and yet continue to rant. Yes the intent of the article was clearly to be a hatchet-job. Same as the liberal anti-america bullshit y'all spout daily without checking into the facts.

In adopting the "question authority" mindset, I just have to ask...
Those that teach you we need to question authority, who is it among you that are questioning their authority? Like intellectual sheep to a slaughter, you never seem to question the source or the information as long as it fits neatly in your "I Hate Bush" philosophy.
Guess as long as there is no responsibility twords honesty, it's easy to justify.

When you say "you" you're not talking about ME are you? Becasue I don't think I do what you are talking about at all.

Breukelen advocaat
02-06-2008, 07:55 PM
Am I the only person that finds the image of a potential leader on his knees begging forgiveness from a male phallic god disturbing? I don't really give two cents which church he belongs to - it's his actions that count.

I'm suspicious about what exactly he's done in his life that requires such piety, and then his constant pointing out about how virtuous he is. I guess some voters find all of this appealing. I find it disgusting.

dragonrider
02-06-2008, 07:56 PM
Obama's association with and being a major contributor to, TUCoC for 20 years qualifies him to be judged by the doctrine from that church. This type of doctrine hasn't just happened overnight, but has been there since the day he stepped foot inside that church.
Am I afraid of that doctrine? No, but am somewhat disgusted by it.

I've been all over the Trinity United Church of Chirst website you provided a link to, and I don't see anything that bothers me about this church at all.

Rusty Trichome
02-06-2008, 09:08 PM
When you say "you" you're not talking about ME are you? Becasue I don't think I do what you are talking about at all.

Wasn't directed to you in particular, as there are many reading this this article I believe fit the statement.

Was in the middle of looking up back issues of the TrumpetMag, and site went down. Will check back later.

Look...you may like Obama, and appear to have valid reasons to do so. This is obviously your right. It is also within my rights to point out discrepencies in his story. As long as you are comfortable that you personally have checked for the validity of both sides of any argument, and it is represented in a manner showing you care enough to study the issue, my argument fades into ticky-tack nit-picking, as does yours.
In debate class we were often given a set of facts regarding an issue. The assignment was to take one side of the debate, and by only utilizing the facts given, to intelligently spar with a classmate on the other side of the argument who was also given the same facts. Then you switch, taking on the opposite side of the issue.

On these boards, the common information gathering practice is to play the chinese whispers game. (googlable)

Not sure if it's just being lazy, or peer pressure.

But I do know that there is quite a responsibility to questioning authority. Otherwise one sounds like a puppet, with Hollywood pulling the liberal strings.

Rusty Trichome
02-06-2008, 09:32 PM
I found out years later that apparently the Dutch Reform Church is also the church of South Africa and was somehow involved in apartheid at the time --- I'm not exactly sure how they are connected, but according to my mother, they are. Anyway, I never saw anything overtly racist in the church, and I know for a fact that my parents were not racist in any way.
Good example, however if your parents were unaware this was going on, (the church wasn't preaching on the matter) and the church doctrine didn't mentioned the associations...then yes. I'd say that is a different story altogether. Would sound to me like a leader had his own agenda. Not all churches are on the up-n-up, but this does not mean they are all secretive and malicious.
I believe strongly the UTCoC is troubling at best.


Another example from my own life is the Boy Scouts.
Only comment to that is that there were no gay leaders when I was a scout.



If Obama was Catholic, you wouldn't assume he was a pedophile if he refused to convert just becasue some priest was caught with his pants down.
No, but pedophilia is not a part of catholic church doctrine.


You wouldn't assume he was a Nazi just because the pope was affiliated with the Nazi youth when he was younger.
Nope, just like Obama, can't control the childhood past. Had he remained or joined later in life, then yes, I'd assume him to be a nazi.

You don't assume Romney is a polygamaist, do you?
It's not part of the church doctrine, so no.


If a person disavows something they do not believe in, you should give them the benefit of the doubt unless you catch them in a lie. How can Obama disavow a church he has devoted twenty years of his life to? Were my pastor to come out and tell us Osama Bin Laden was coming on Sunday to offer advise on empowerment, his (our pastors') would be the next funeral. (in a matter of speaking, of course)
I'll bet there are at least a couple of christians that could have given the interview, without having a black militant reverend with a pention for hating whites, jews and America, speaking to my congregation. Wouldn't take me long to change my affiliation, and I'm not even running for office.


They successfully rehabilitate criminals, making them part of the posse (security) doesn't count, lol. Sorry, couldn't help it.

dragonrider
02-06-2008, 10:23 PM
How can Obama disavow a church he has devoted twenty years of his life to?

I was not saying he should disavow his church. I was saying he has stated he rejects racism and anti-Semitism and condemns those kinds of statements by Farrakhan. He disagrees with Trumpet Magazine's decision to honor Farrakhan. He should be taken at his word unless it is proven otherwise.

And my examples of organizations with questionable decisions made by leaders were not meant to suggest that those organizations included those hateful practices as a part of their doctrine. That's why I think they are good examples. I don't think that anti-Semitism and racism are part of the doctrine of Obama's church, at least I didn't see anything that made me think they were racist on the website you provided a link to. The leader of the church has made the questionable decision of honoring Farrakhan who has made racist and anti-Semitic remarks, but that does not mean racism and anti-Semitism is a part of TUCoC's doctrine. If it is, then I think Obama should reject the church, but I don't think it is part of their doctrine.

That is probably the only point where we really disagree, and I guess we'll probably have to leave it at that. Certainly if I thought his church really was racist, then I agree --- I would not be happy to see him as a member of it, and it would probably be to late for him to do anything about it. But I assume if you believed his church was NOT racist, then you wouldn't have a problem with him bieng a member? Our disagreement comes down to whether TUCoC is really racist or not.

Rusty Trichome
02-07-2008, 12:57 AM
I'm sure it's no more so than the NAACP.:jointsmile:

8182KSKUSH
02-07-2008, 02:27 AM
Here's the deal,
The argument that anyone that is president has to be agnostic and can't believe in a higher power is not really relevant. Anyone can believe anything they want. One of the first posts said something about how Bush was wrong to believe in his faith and rely on it for guidance. Since when?
From what I understand THE GOVERNMENT AS A WHOLE CAN'T FORCE A RELIGION DOWN YOUR THROAT. People that serve in the goverment can believe what ever they want.

As for Obama, I have mixed feelings about the church issue. No fan of the NOI, however, I can't hold Obama accountable for what his church does and if someone in that church has piss poor judgement, that's not his fault. That seems silly, that's like holding you accountable for your wierd ass uncle in Thailand.:D I don't think the issue is really relevant with any canidate or Bush for that matter. No doubt it will be an issue for some. Ok, that's there perogative.
As far as not insulting islam? Whatever.:S4:

So let me see if I have this str8.
Hate America ok
Bash America ok
Hate Christians ok
Bash Christians ok
Make a funny cartoon about Islam and people threaten jihad?
Sweet Feathery Jesus, I am an equal oppurtunity offender, and yes there is plenty to make fun of islam about. It seems islamists and their sympathizers have alot in common with the liberal left, like 0 tolerance for anyone that disagrees with them.:thumbsup: I say antagonize the hell out of them, if they can't take it then too fucking bad, they can do something about it. Worked out real good for them the last time they tried something, look at them now. :D:S4::apachecopter::s4::Tomcat::chainsaw: