Brown spots, potential MG deficiency.... Your thoughts are requested!!

[twilight12]

Interesting situation, New York City Diesel in three gallon container used for propogation purposes. Cuttings were taken from this mother plant one week ago at which time she started to develop these odd brown marks on her fan leaves. The brown marks only appear on the established fan leaves and not on new growth. The clones taken from this mother have shown no signs of browning. Each of these fan leaves also curls. Current room statistics are 85 F, 26% H (it's winter no way to raise it, yes I do have a humidfier). Plenty of CFM room changes airflow over three times every minute. This plant is three feet away from the CO2 generator and the spots do remind me of a problem I saw when someone put a plant next to an ion generator but since they two are unrelated I don't think theres a connection. After research I believe that since the plants are 3 ft tall in a 3 gallon container that it could be a MG deficiency, I have treated with cal mag for the last two days and have not seen any additional problems from the new growth, however, it's only when the fan leaves become established that the problem presents itself....... any thoughts grow masters of the world?

[Weedhound]

I can't even tell what medium you are in.......are you checking the ph of your solution or soil runoff. How about some more info about your specs?

3 gallon container....with no other specs I'll guess rootbound.....

[Weedhound]

The photos look like a k def.....I'll still guess rootbound and perhaps a few too many ferts.

[twilight12]

Current medium is soil based, this isn't my medium of expertise since I a hydro person myself. I believe that yes the plant is potentiall rootbound; however, I have never before seen a rootbound plant act in this fashion. I have given thought to a potential K deficiency and have added Calmag to my nutrient administration since it contains both K and MG. I'm very much in doubt of overferting since I've been growing in a Miracle grow medium for the last two months and have added nothing but straight 6.5 ph water with no nutrients up until two days ago when I added cal-mag to the water treatment. My PH soild run off is approximately 6.3 which I believe should be ok, if not pls comment.
I just find it odd that these spots only presented themselves two days after taking 100 plus cuttings from this plant (I really butchered it but left the main to sex it). and moved it over by the CO2 generator (using CD6), i could be wrong but it just seems that there must be some connection to this event since for two months before the NYC Diesel looked incredible through veg state, best plant i've seen in 5 years in veg state. The plant is still very healthy on newer growth. Due to height restrictions we are only 3 feet from top of plant to a 1000 hps on a light mover so it doesn't get too hot, but I will admit that it is close, not too much I can do about it unfortunately. I'm with you on thinking K or MG deficeicny thought.... any thoughts?

[Weedhound]

Well the curled edges of your leaves are saying that either the plant is too hot....or is overferted. I'd also think overfert due to the darkness of the leaf in your photo unless that's your lighting and it doesn't appear to be.

CalMag has nitrogen in it....that would explain the darker green of your leaf....and too much could also explain locking out other nutes but so would being rootbound....I'd transplant to a larger container, drop the CalMAg unless you are using RO water and ease up on the stress.

I'm a hydro person as well.....and just the look of your plant too me says lockout vs true deficiency but I'm guessing....just based on the one photo of one leaf. I'd bet money you don't need MORE ferts....somehow you either need less or the plant needs more room.

[Weedhound]

I've read that very low humidity can also contribute to a k def and yours IS very low. Would bowls of water sitting around help at all? I still think you are looking at some sort of lockout however......

Good luck. :)

[twilight12]

I will transplant over to a five gallon pot to hopefully relieve some of the problems we've discussed so far. I do have left over miracle grow soild which has nut's already in it so that should in effect eliminate any nutrients that the plant will need through the flowering cycle. The humidity in itself is a whole different issue, I've attempted using a large capacity humidifier and bowls of how steamy water to increase ambient humidity. However, I am unable to do so. Currently my chamber for growing is very limited and I'm running two 1000 hps lamps, normally my hydro setup contains three 30 gallon resivoirs which when hot give off enough humidity to keep it around 50% in winter, but since all of them are down currently I'm stuck with what I have. In addition the totaly square footage of the room is only 128 sq ft and due to the heat buildup the room runs an amazing 2000 cfm output from the room using two large cyclone fans with the same 2000 cfm input into the room using a number of hydrofarm fans. I've tried putting water into the room unfortunately as soon as humidity comes off of the water it is quickly evaculated from the room. With those limiting factors such as room height, cfm, lights etc. I've had to come up with some inventive solutions to keep the enviornment up to snuff. I will attempt to repot them into five gallon containers and keep my fingers crossed.

[PharmaCan]

If you really cut a mother a lot, she'll sometimes get pissy on you. If the new growth is looking good, I wouldn't worry too much about the old.

Am I understanding correctly that you took 100 cuttings from an unsexed plant? You sure are one optimistic mofo. :thumbsup:

PC :smokin:

[PharmaCan]

I will transplant over to a five gallon pot to hopefully relieve some of the problems we've discussed so far. I do have left over miracle grow soild which has nut's already in it so that should in effect eliminate any nutrients that the plant will need through the flowering cycle. The humidity in itself is a whole different issue, I've attempted using a large capacity humidifier and bowls of how steamy water to increase ambient humidity. However, I am unable to do so. Currently my chamber for growing is very limited and I'm running two 1000 hps lamps, normally my hydro setup contains three 30 gallon resivoirs which when hot give off enough humidity to keep it around 50% in winter, but since all of them are down currently I'm stuck with what I have. In addition the totaly square footage of the room is only 128 sq ft and due to the heat buildup the room runs an amazing 2000 cfm output from the room using two large cyclone fans with the same 2000 cfm input into the room using a number of hydrofarm fans. I've tried putting water into the room unfortunately as soon as humidity comes off of the water it is quickly evaculated from the room. With those limiting factors such as room height, cfm, lights etc. I've had to come up with some inventive solutions to keep the enviornment up to snuff. I will attempt to repot them into five gallon containers and keep my fingers crossed.

Intake and exhaust air cooled light fixtures outside your grow room, with its own separate system. This will make it much easier to control the environment within your grow room. It sounds like you have enough fans, you just need to set them up differently.

PC :smokin:

[Weedhound]

I don't know anything about pissy mother syndrome....so that one's on PC. What ARE the temps in your room? Hot enough to stress?

[twilight12]

Doubtful on the stress.... temps have gotten as high in the summer as 93 F when on 18/6 but currently they have been at 82-85 for the past few months. I too have never heard of a "pissy mother" syndrome not to say that one does not exist. I love the idea of being able to vent those lamps. Unfortunately I have light hood that only has one vent on each: .: Sunlight Supply - horticulture and aquarium lighting systems :. Website (http://www.sunlightsupply.com/product.cfm?sid=99C45EE2E0815D5534649A2C0990E90B&p=960&cs=products%2Ecfm%3Fsid%3D99C45EE2E0815D5534649A2C 0990E90B%26c%3D23%26kys%3D%26pgi%3D1) and i would have to run some type of inline 4 inch vent hose in order to vent the reflectors directly. It's a great idea and I've been thinking of ways to vent them for years to no avail. Basically in order to vent them i'd need an input flange and an output flange therefore I could hook them up in a line. both lights run along the same 12 foot track so I'm kinda of stuck having a hotter than normal enviornment and simply venting the whole room as fast as possible. If anyone can think of a way to make to vent holes on that reflector let me know.

[PharmaCan]

You would need air cooled reflectors - the kind with glass and two 6" vent flanges. I just bought four new Hydrofarm "Daystar" hoods. They're only $150 each.

PC :smokin:

[Weedhound]

Well from what I understood they only have one vent but can be air-cooled adapted. But he's right.....he'd have to drill a hole in each to connect them or cool them each with their own fans.......I don't really get where the cool intake air is supposed to come from with only one vent.

[twilight12]

Ok i pulled the two plants in questions and repotted them into the five gallon. Funny thing was that when I pulled them they were so root bound they litterally came out of the pot with one tug. The bottom half of the buckets were literally solid white with roots. I loosened the exterior roots from the bind therefore making them more likely to spread into the new soil. One of the plant is so large that I began to bend it over laterally a trick I learned from Soma. I've slowly bent the larger one over 90 degrees and tied it to the stalk using twine. I'm with you both on cooling those hoods and I'd love to do it, I'm just not sure it's feasible given the criteria i have to work with, even if I readjusted all fans and purchased two new air cooled hoods I'm not sure I could get it to work. if I could in some way tell you in words what I'm dealing with I could. I'm a little leary about posting a picture of my setup for security reasons. I'm hoping that the repotting will help the problem and I'll be using straight water with no nutrients for the remainder of the eight weeks of flowering since the miracle grow has nutrients built in. Thanks for your help fellas if you think of anything else let me know.

[PharmaCan]

Thanks for your help fellas if you think of anything else let me know.

Only to mention that Weedhound ain't no fella. :D

PC :smokin:

[twilight12]

My apologies hound and thanks for the heads up PC.
I stayed up last night batting around the idea of what you suggested on being able to directly cool the reflectors in order to decrease heat. An idea I had given up on years ago simply thinking it was too difficult and not feasible. However, last night I had a breakthrough and I believe that I can setup an inline air cooled system using two super sun I reflectors wired in a line. Simply put a hydrofarm squirel cage fan (the biggest one they have) would push air from the mother room (cooler air) through a port into the mother room, it would flow through 4 inch ducting into the first reflector which would then flow through another 4 inch duct to the second reflector, it would exit the second reflector and travel through an identical hydrofarm fan (same CFM at the first one) and out the of the flower chamber. I've got most of the practical parts worked out so far the only issues I'm working on is how to support the ducting between the two reflectors since both lights are on the same 12 foot rail and both are on movers so the ducts would grow and shrink like an accordian. I think I can simply use twine or fishing line to support the middle of it without any issues. Thanks again for the brain kickstart guys and gals I appreciate all your help. If you have any more thoughts keep em coming. :thumbsup:

[PharmaCan]

You don't need a fan on both ends. One fan will suffice.

PC :smokin:

[Weedhound]

I'm trying to figure out something to put in a sig or something so people won't get confused.

You want your fan to PULL air...not push it. Your fan needs to be on the side of your exhaust. A pic WOULD help but I don't want to freak you out. Have you considered a cool tube? Low on space, you can hook them together easily and if you have one GOOD inline fan it will cool them both. You'd need six inch ducting instead of four inch however.

[twilight12]

I'm adding a pusher fan and a exhaust fan on the line since the distance is over 20 feet of ducting and i'm afraid that simply a single exhaust fan over that distance won't be enought to cool two 1000 hps bulbs. I'd rather go overkill than loose bulbs.

[Weedhound]

A very good friend of mine uses a...630 cfm inline fan I believe to cool his 2 1kw hps bulbs with six inch ducting. Says it works great for both.

[stinkyattic]

With high temps and CO2 you also need to keep your humidity up a bit higher. The stomata are open in those conditions. Water loss through accelerated transpiration is a danger of CO2 juicing.