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r0k
01-15-2008, 05:03 AM
The Universal National Service Act of 2007 (H.R.393) was introduced to the United States House of Representatives on January 10, 2007 by Rep. Charles Rangel (D-N.Y.). It proposed the requirement that all residents in the United States aged between 18 and 42 carry out national service, and be available for conscription during wartime. It would allow no deferments after age 20. ...

The draft is coming back.. Although, I don't think it will get enough votes.. Let's hope.

H.R. 393: Universal National Service Act of 2007 (GovTrack.us) (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-393)

ldg420
01-15-2008, 05:05 AM
I find it odd that it was introduced:stoned: by a dem..

Psycho4Bud
01-15-2008, 05:12 AM
I find it odd that it was introduced:stoned: by a dem..

The Dems are the ONLY ones talking draft. The Republicans are set against it.

How is it that they want the soldiers home from Iraq and ALSO want a draft....what's their agenda????

Have a good one!:s4:

birdgirl73
01-15-2008, 05:21 AM
I don't find that odd, myself. And it's important that everyone realize the idea behind "national service" is much more broad than mandatory conscription into the armed forces. It could mean service as a park ranger. Service for the U.S. Coast Guard or the Army Corps of Engineers. Service for some other area that supports national security or defense or aids the country. Service through AmeriCorps (sort of like our domestic version of the Peace Corps). Even service in teaching programs.

I think it's an idea whose time has come, and I'd love to be among the first people to do one of those jobs, at least if they wouldn't deem me too old.

Mississippi Steve
01-15-2008, 05:33 AM
I don't find that odd, myself. And it's important that everyone realize the idea behind "national service" is much more broad than mandatory conscription into the armed forces. It could mean service as a park ranger. Service for the U.S. Coast Guard or the Army Corps of Engineers. Service for some other area that supports national security or defense or aids the country. Service through AmeriCorps (sort of like our domestic version of the Peace Corps). Even service in teaching programs.

I think it's an idea whose time has come, and I'd love to be among the first people to do one of those jobs, at least if they wouldn't deem me too old.

Ummm.. 'scuse me, but the U.S. Coast Guard is a military service branch. They just fall under DOD during time of war, otherwise they are under Department of Homeland Security. OTOH, the Coast Guard does have more power than the other military services.

FWIW, I also find it strange that the Dems want to bring back the draft..... I gotta wonder what their ulterior motives are. Don't get me wrong, I think that bringing back the draft is a good thing.

Fencewalker
01-15-2008, 05:45 AM
Personally, I think it is a way to try and get more blowback against the "war". If suddenly folks knew that they or their children could be volunteered to be shipped out...There might be more intestinal fortitude to stand up to the pro war crowd.

But I could be wrong...;)

dragonrider
01-15-2008, 05:51 PM
My understanding of this is that it is not really a serious proposal with any chance of passing. Rangel did it to make a point that the people fighting the war are disproportionately poor and they sign up for military service because they don't have many economic options. His idea is that if military service were compulsory, then you would have a better economic cross-section of people going off to war --- rich kids would get drafted too, supposedly. So it's not really a Democratic policy to reimpose the draft, it's Rangel's way of making a point.

fishman3811
01-19-2008, 05:21 AM
some body has to fight this illegal war you have over in Iraq.Or the new war you guys want to fight in Iran.So how many body bags will it take before you guys get the hell out of Iraq?Sure as shit i wouldnt let my kids die over in Iraq so that some Elite can get even more richer from his stocks in weapons companies.

killerweed420
01-19-2008, 08:28 PM
At some point they will probably have to institute the draft. I think kids are getting tired of risking there lives for private vendettas. Unless we could finally have a real foreign policy in this country where we actually discussed issues with these countries instead of threatening them.

Beefer86
01-25-2008, 05:48 AM
I will fight if
A. America is directly threatened with invasion or attacks.
B. My CIC didnt abandon his Air Force post to snort coke.

I wonder how many of our troops really believe that what they are demanded to do is for a just cause. I doubt the ones who have had friends die in front of their eyes believe it was worth it, unless they really are that brainwashed.

mfqr
01-25-2008, 05:52 AM
I don't find that odd, myself. And it's important that everyone realize the idea behind "national service" is much more broad than mandatory conscription into the armed forces. It could mean service as a park ranger. Service for the U.S. Coast Guard or the Army Corps of Engineers. Service for some other area that supports national security or defense or aids the country. Service through AmeriCorps (sort of like our domestic version of the Peace Corps). Even service in teaching programs.

I think it's an idea whose time has come, and I'd love to be among the first people to do one of those jobs, at least if they wouldn't deem me too old.

And once they find a stupid reason to attack Iran, it won't be about being a park ranger anymore...

RamblerGambler
01-28-2008, 02:13 AM
I could be mistaken, but wasn't the purpose of this to even out the draft? Making everyone, especially the wealthy, eligible seems like a decent idea to me. Then again, in this society some people are created more equal than others.

Zcomp
01-28-2008, 03:27 AM
I have a better idea, Lets take every illegal immigrant and require them to complete a tour in order to gain citizenship.
This would solve two bird with one stone.

fishman3811
01-28-2008, 03:34 AM
good idea zcomp let all the illegal poor immigrants fight your illegal wars so they can become citizens of your wonderfull country.

Zcomp
01-28-2008, 03:51 AM
"poor"??? define poor?? I'm poorer than most illegal immigrants! And its because of them.
Hi my name is Zach and I install ceramic tile for a living. Sounds like I should be braking the bank right?? NO, because 3 illegals(living in the same room albeit) will do it for less than half what I charge. Not because I charge high, because there living 20 to a house and sharing equipment to run an effective 4-5 separate crews out of a 3-4 bedroom house with one set of tools.

So if I sound crude to my illegal friends, too bad. I have legal immigrant friends who agree with me here, They are just as mad at these border jumpers. I just think that a draft of illegals would give them some pathway to dignity.

And let us not forget, Its our "poor" legal immigrants and citizens that ARE fighting this illegal war.

fishman3811
01-29-2008, 08:01 AM
well zcomp im truly sorry about your situation it sucks.You guys do have a serious illegal immigrant situation that i wouldnt want to have thats for sure.We dont get too mAny Mexicans wanting to come live up here in Canada mainly because its just too fucking cold and other reasons.But hey if u get desperate enough Alberta is screaming for trades people because of the oil boom there so if you dont mind winter 7-8 months out of the year come to the great white north.Youll be working so much up here that you wont even feel the cold bro.

Zcomp
01-30-2008, 05:58 PM
As much as I dream of moving to Canada (I'm really serious too), I just don't think I could handle the cold. I used to live in Conway,NH on the border of Maine and maybe an hour from Canada, I remember every day of the 6-8 month winter being the worst.
My goal now is to go off to Ireland or Holland, Where I can enjoy a little actual freedom. Instead of this pretend "freedom".
Sorry if I came off sharp there, But my dad made a good living installing tile, In only the last 20yrs I've watched my family trade go from "a standing career" all the way down to "you'll need government assistance to survive".
I mean that sincerely too, I'm on foodstamps right now. I have a 2-1/2 yr old daughter who has no idea how far we've fallen. And now I look around and people are concerned about the illegals, There ILLEGALS!! would we protest on behalf of the rapist and molesters??? Its all the same to me. I've been getting raped and molested(spiritually & Financially) by these border jumpers for over a decade now.
There I go on a rant again, Sorry.

fishman3811
01-31-2008, 06:17 AM
Zcomp you know what man the cold isnt all that bad you get use to it and besides you can always dress warm.But im telling you zcomp you will work 20 hours a day in Alberta if u want to.there is a huge housing shortage there due to the oil boom and there is a 2 year waiting list just to buy a house in many parts of Alberta.There is a shortage of workers to build the houses neccassary and a shortage of tradesmen to finish the houses.You should look into it.Plus Alberta has generally mild winters and the summers there are beutifull.I hear you on the pretend freedom you have in your country i think your country is one big police state with very little freedom but hey im just a dumb socialist who loves Canada so what do i know...Ive heard nothing but good things about Ireland too so i hope you find your place in this world.peace and good luck

Mississippi Steve
01-31-2008, 06:56 AM
As much as I dream of moving to Canada (I'm really serious too), I just don't think I could handle the cold. I used to live in Conway,NH on the border of Maine and maybe an hour from Canada, I remember every day of the 6-8 month winter being the worst.
My goal now is to go off to Ireland or Holland, Where I can enjoy a little actual freedom. Instead of this pretend "freedom".
Sorry if I came off sharp there, But my dad made a good living installing tile, In only the last 20yrs I've watched my family trade go from "a standing career" all the way down to "you'll need government assistance to survive".
I mean that sincerely too, I'm on foodstamps right now. I have a 2-1/2 yr old daughter who has no idea how far we've fallen. And now I look around and people are concerned about the illegals, There ILLEGALS!! would we protest on behalf of the rapist and molesters??? Its all the same to me. I've been getting raped and molested(spiritually & Financially) by these border jumpers for over a decade now.
There I go on a rant again, Sorry.

Don't sweat the rant..... I was where you are now in 2004, then I wised up, and quit trying to underbid everybody else to get work, went back to school for business courses, learned the business of running a business. In the process, I learned to charge what I am worth, do the very best work, not necessarely the fastest, just the best. Folks that wan the best know who to call, folks that just want "cheap" call everybody. Use the fact tha most of the other contractors are hiring illegals to do their work to your advantage.
I don't know what you use for your net margins, or what kind of pricing schedule you have, but as an HVAC contractor, when I went from T&M to Flat Rate, my gross reciepts doubled, and my NET PROFIT increased by a factor of 10!! My price book only has the word "LABOR" in it twice. Labor is a bad word...
OTOH, when I show them in the book how much its going to cost, they ask..."how much is the labor?" to which I now reply..."I'm sorry, we don't charge labor". I get less than 10% of the install jobs that I quote, but the folks that have me install a new comfort system for them are my best advertisement.

You can make it, just take the high road, and offer premium services. You can be the lowest bidder, all the time and go broke really quick.... or you can charge what *YOU* are worth, and to hell with the bottom feeders.....let them scrape the bottom of the barrel. Just remember, that part of being the best is looking the part, *ALWAYS* being professional, drive a vehicle that is always clean....waxed is good too, and do the very best quality work with the very best quality materials.

I wish you a very profitable year :thumbsup:

yokinazu
01-31-2008, 04:01 PM
From a California school teacher - - -

"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration, there are some things that you should be aware of:

I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socioeconomic and income levels.

Most of the schools you are hearing about, South Gate High, Bell Gardens , Huntington Park , etc., where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 schools.

Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones. The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for babysitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing
funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center, half of which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America . (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the country less then 3 months who raised so much hell with the female teachers, calling them "Putas" whores and throwing things that the teachers were in tears.

Free medical, free education, free food, day care, etc., etc, etc. Is it any wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand rights, privileges and entitlements?

To those who want to point out how much these illegal immigrants contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some time in the real world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE costs.

Higher insurance, medical facilities closing, higher medical costs, more crime, lower standards of education in our schools, overcrowding, new diseases etc., etc, etc. For me, I'll pay more for tomatoes.

We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster because we won't have the guts to enforce it. Does anyone in their right mind really think they will voluntarily leave and return?

It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-world culture that does not value education, that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that refuses to assimilate, and an American culture that has become so weak and worried about "political correctness" that we don't have the will to do anything about it.

If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know.

CHEAP LABOR? Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?

Business doesn't want to pay a decent wage.

Consumers don't want expensive produce.

Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs.

But the bottom line is cheap labor. The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie. There is no such thing as "cheap labor."

Take, for example, an illegal alien with a wife and five children. He takes a job for $5.00 or 6.00/hour. At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return, he gets an "earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.

He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent.

He qualifies for food stamps.

He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care.

His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school.

He requires bilingual teachers and books.

He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.

If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled, they qualify for SSI. Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare. All of this is at (our) taxpayer's expense.

He doesn't worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.

Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.

He and his family receive the equivalent of $20.00 to $30.00/hour in benefits.

Working Americans are lucky to have $5.00 or $6.00/hour left after paying their bills and his.

The American taxpayers also pay for increased crime, graffiti and trash clean-up.

Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT! Wake up people!

fishman3811
02-01-2008, 05:53 AM
Its bloody amazing you guys dont have any say in your country anymore.From what i gather most Americans want illegals out yesterday not tommorrow.but your politicians dont listen to you the people.Fucking amazing......

The Gnome
02-01-2008, 06:16 AM
I'm pretty sure most illegals from Mexico jump the border cause there ain't much food down there. . .

Could you explain how an illegal immigrant qualifies for food stamps if they have to hide from the eye of the government? I'm serious, I didn't know that, I don't understand why they don't get busted if they apply for a government service.

dragonrider
02-01-2008, 06:34 AM
I'm pretty sure most illegals from Mexico jump the border cause there ain't much food down there. . .

Could you explain how an illegal immigrant qualifies for food stamps if they have to hide from the eye of the government? I'm serious, I didn't know that, I don't understand why they don't get busted if they apply for a government service.

I actually think the article by the "California school teacher" is mostly a buttload of crap.

You're right, they don't qualify for food stamps. Without a social security number, they don't collect SSI. The don't get the Earned Income Tax Credit. The don't get Section 8 housing and subsidized rent. Car insurance is one thing, but who cares if they don't get life insurance or homeowners insurance --- plenty of Americans opt out of these kinds of insurance too.

The article makes some real points about the hidden costs of "cheap labor," but it blows its credibility by mixing in all the lies. Usually when you see a line like, "If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know," you know it's some load of propaganda garbage, and you need to take a critical at it.

I'm certainly not for illegal immigration, and I think we need to control our borders. But you can make a good case against illegal immigration without lying about it.

How did this thread get so far of track and end up being about illegal imigrants anyway? Wasn't it about the National Service Act?

epxroot
02-01-2008, 03:09 PM
From a California school teacher - - -

"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration, there are some things that you should be aware of:

I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socioeconomic and income levels.

Most of the schools you are hearing about, South Gate High, Bell Gardens , Huntington Park , etc., where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 schools.

Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones. The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for babysitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing
funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center, half of which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America . (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the country less then 3 months who raised so much hell with the female teachers, calling them "Putas" whores and throwing things that the teachers were in tears.

Free medical, free education, free food, day care, etc., etc, etc. Is it any wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand rights, privileges and entitlements?

To those who want to point out how much these illegal immigrants contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some time in the real world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE costs.

Higher insurance, medical facilities closing, higher medical costs, more crime, lower standards of education in our schools, overcrowding, new diseases etc., etc, etc. For me, I'll pay more for tomatoes.

We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster because we won't have the guts to enforce it. Does anyone in their right mind really think they will voluntarily leave and return?

It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-world culture that does not value education, that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that refuses to assimilate, and an American culture that has become so weak and worried about "political correctness" that we don't have the will to do anything about it.

If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know.

CHEAP LABOR? Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?

Business doesn't want to pay a decent wage.

Consumers don't want expensive produce.

Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs.

But the bottom line is cheap labor. The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie. There is no such thing as "cheap labor."

Take, for example, an illegal alien with a wife and five children. He takes a job for $5.00 or 6.00/hour. At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return, he gets an "earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.

He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent.

He qualifies for food stamps.

He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care.

His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school.

He requires bilingual teachers and books.

He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.

If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled, they qualify for SSI. Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare. All of this is at (our) taxpayer's expense.

He doesn't worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.

Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.

He and his family receive the equivalent of $20.00 to $30.00/hour in benefits.

Working Americans are lucky to have $5.00 or $6.00/hour left after paying their bills and his.

The American taxpayers also pay for increased crime, graffiti and trash clean-up.

Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT! Wake up people!

We need to stop the welfare state. The longer we keep this welfare state the more problems we will have. The reason they come here and stay is because of the free system they can abuse. If we stop this horrible welfare state I know for a fact that our illegal immigrants would not be the scapegoat any longer.

Fencewalker
02-01-2008, 05:44 PM
The don't get the Earned Income Tax Credit.
They aren't supposed to, but it seems they are:

Illegals get undeserved tax benefits. The 1999 report appears to include extensive commentary on the ITIN applications of 340,000 illegal aliens, but most of it was redacted. The IRSâ??s objective may be to collect tax revenue from the broadest base possible â?? a laudable goal. Ironically, however, this has resulted in the IRS ignoring illegalsâ?? presence in the United States. One of the reasons why illegals are issued ITINs is that IRS regulations determine resident alien status based on "substantial presence" in the United States, not legal residence. Thus, illegal aliens who file tax returns are treated in the same way as legal foreign residents and receive the same tax benefits, such as spousal exemptions, child and education tax credits. The one exception seems to be the Earned Income Tax Credit, which is available to legal permanent residents but which the IRS decided would not be available to illegal aliens.

Intended or not, it is clear that a significant number of illegal aliens are receiving the Earned Income Tax Credit. This is talked about quite openly by their advocates. Moreover, in its publications the IRS is signaling that this is a problem. One of three bullet points at the top of Form W-7 used to apply for an ITIN reads: "Receipt of an ITIN does not make you eligible to claim the earned income credit (EIC)."5

Further, a section describing the Earned Income Tax Credit on the IRS web site lists six rules that must be followed. "Rule 1. You Must Have a Valid Social Security Number (SSN). . .You cannot get the EIC if, instead of an SSN, you (or your spouse if filing a joint return) have an individual taxpayer identification number (ITIN). ITINs are issued by the Internal Revenue Service to noncitizens who cannot get an SSN."6

It is an unfortunate fact of life that U.S. citizens routinely claim tax deductions and credits to which they are not entitled. It is a cat and mouse game that presumably the IRS wins more often than not. However, there was language in the Inspector Generalâ??s 1999 report implying that both "revenue protection issues" and "operational problems during the implementation" period resulted in the ITIN being vulnerable to fraud. It is possible that the IRS system was programmed in a way that makes it very difficult to prevent payment of the Earned Income Credit if a resident alien unauthorized to work in the United States claims it.
Center for Immigration Studies (http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/back1202.html)

dragonrider
02-01-2008, 06:05 PM
They aren't supposed to, but it seems they are:

I guess there's no accounting for the IRS breaking it's own rules. Looks like they've had 8 years to fix it since the report, so hopefully they've done so by now.

Zcomp
02-03-2008, 03:19 AM
Thank you fishman for your well wishes.
And thank you misissippisteve, I will heed that advice about "labor". As far as stopping underbidding.... I'll have to do that gradually. I live truly paycheck to paycheck.
I would be sunk if a month went by with no work. And stopping to take some classes just won't work. But I will read up as much as possible into business management. I've probably taken the wrong path once or twice.
I'll keep my head up. :jointsmile:

Mississippi Steve
02-03-2008, 03:22 PM
Thank you fishman for your well wishes.
And thank you misissippisteve, I will heed that advice about "labor". As far as stopping underbidding.... I'll have to do that gradually. I live truly paycheck to paycheck.
I would be sunk if a month went by with no work. And stopping to take some classes just won't work. But I will read up as much as possible into business management. I've probably taken the wrong path once or twice.
I'll keep my head up. :jointsmile:

I have been able to help others with my experiences and some of the documents and marketing I have generated, as well as sharing the flat rate pricing spreadsheets I use...the format can be tailored to most any service business.

When I learned the business of running a business, then applied it, in just 2 months time I went from almost paying my bills to making a decent living. Read this as my gross reciepts doubled, and my net profit increased by a factor of 10.

If only the mods would let me give you contact information on here, or on a private message, I would be more than happy to share my knowledge.

:thumbsup: