New Scrog Grow... Questions?

[Dren]

Ok so here's the setup thus far:

Veg/Flower phases:
4'x4' space, about 6' ceilings.
430w HPS Son Agro system/bulb in cooltube w/ batwing reflector
250 cfm fan w/ ducting to outside for cooling light system
several smaller fans circulate air around the plants for proper venting and to increase strength of stems

Mother:
flouro light (what's going to be optimal to keep her healthy and flourishing?)
organic soil

Clones:
rockwool
flouro light



I'm currently growing clones for 2-3 weeks in veg before switching to 12/12 for flowering to provide my plants with a good opportunity to establish themselves and give myself slightly larger bud size at harvest. The entire area is cooled with central air and kept at ~70-72 degrees constantly. I'm also going to go with a scrog setup and a good big bud x nl hybrid a buddy of mine and I have been working on for the last 6 months (we had several smaller stealth grows setup during that period and developed our cross from some seeds we'd saved over years of high-end weed deals :rastasmoke:)


Questions:

How much benefit would I get from upgrading to a 600w HPS (or 1000w HPS for that matter) or a 400w HPS + a 400w MH (I'm assuming that in order to get full benefit from the MH I would need to increase the veg time to get my money's worth on the bulb/ballast correct?) or by going to dual 400w son agro HPS's?

How much would hydro speed up harvest time, increase yields, etc... ?

What's the optimum number of plants for me to run in this setup to maximize potency, flavor/aroma, yield, etc...?

How much benefit am I going to see from adding CO2 enrichment to the grow space?

I've grown before and, from what I can tell, have a better than average grasp on the concepts used for indoor growing, be they hydro, aero, soil, etc... but that doesn't give me much in the way of numbers or quantifiable benchmarks. To try and get a better idea of what to expect with this specific grow in terms of bud potency/size and yield as well as where I can improve, I figured it would be best to ask the community here for input.

Much thanks for any help y'all can provide!

Peace :hippy:

[zlessley]

MY OPINION, I am not the pot pope, I can be wrong.

Well, i would suggest getting a switchable ballast, one that can run HPS AND MH bulbs.. a lot cheaper and easier. I'd suggest going with the 1000 because you want between 30-50 watts per square foot when dealing with those HID lights; 16X30=480Watts (minimum) 16X50=800Watts (ideal, anymore and you start wasting light). So, if you want MAX yield, I'd go with the 1000W HPS/MH switchable, if you want economy, go with a 600W, you won't get as much, but you'll do about average... actually, if you have the money, spring for 2 400Watt lights, hang them apart so they cover the space evenly. If you can't afford switchables, stay with HPS, it may not be as good as MH in veg, but if grown strictly with either one, HPS gives you a substantially larger yield.

I'd strongly support using soil, unless you live 3+ stories and you have no elevator. Done correctly, organics can produce just as much bud (and much tastier mind you) in the same time as hydro, ok maybe at MOST a few days behind, but if you're looking for quality, stick with dirt.

Optimum number of plants would really depend on how you want to grow, I'd say anywhere between 8 and 16, leaning more towards 8, although, if you want quick turnaround and you don't mind making a lot of clones, go with 16. That way, you just veg for about a week, rather than 2 and put them into flower.

CO2 is a definite yes, especially as babies and when they're blooming, and if you're going to be doing quick SOG, that'd be perfect, as they go into bloom as babies.

My main problem with hydro is that it's messy, too much equipment to buy and maintain, very little cushion for mistakes, and you need to check it daily. Right now, I've got a grow going in a buddy's house, all he has to do is water it and feed it according to the directions. Nothing complicated, if he forgets to water for a couple days, nothing is going to happen. If the water levels get too low in hydro.. you're fucked, soil holds moisture MUCH better than air.

[Dren]

I've ran hydro before but only on an 8 plant stealth scale so while I assumed the time-to-harvest and whatnot would be similar on a larger grow as well. I was mostly just wondering if there was any sort of increase in efficiency or any other notable advantage that manifests itself on larger grows that I wouldn't be able to foresee.

I'd much prefer to stick with soil.

How much yield could I expect off an 8 or 16 plant grow with a 600w HPS in the same space? I've got 4 now but with only the 400w light and I'm giving them more veg time to help fill up the screen and give them a chance to bush out a little bit before flowering them so numbers should be substantially different.

The only reason I don't have a proper co2 system yet is the cost, not to mention it's easy as fuck for the cops to trace the sale/rental of co2 tanks and it's slightly conspicuous trying to get them from a compact sedan into the house. How efficient is the sugar/yeast/water method of enrichment?

Also, if you had to use cfls for lighting the mother, how many and what wattage/bulb is best?

[zlessley]

NOT a double post guys, if someone can delete my previous one, please do, this is the edited version.

MY OPINION, I am not the pot pope, I can be wrong.

Well, i would suggest getting a switchable ballast, one that can run HPS AND MH bulbs.. a lot cheaper and easier. I'd suggest going with another 400W because you want between 30-50 watts per square foot when dealing with those HID lights; 16X30=480Watts (minimum) 16X50=800Watts (ideal, anymore and you start wasting light). So, just get another 400W, hang them apart so they cover the space evenly. If you can't afford switchables, stay with HPS, it may not be as good as MH in veg, but if grown strictly with either one, HPS gives you a substantially larger yield.

I'd strongly support using soil, unless you live 3+ stories and you have no elevator. Done correctly, organics can produce just as much bud (and much tastier mind you) in the same time as hydro, ok maybe at MOST a few days behind, but if you're looking for quality, stick with dirt.

Optimum number of plants would really depend on how you want to grow, I'd say anywhere between 8 and 16, leaning more towards 8, although, if you want quick turnaround and you don't mind making a lot of clones, go with 16. That way, you just veg for about a week, rather than 2 and put them into flower.

CO2 is a definite yes, especially as babies and when they're blooming, and if you're going to be doing quick SOG, that'd be perfect, as they go into bloom as babies.

My main problem with hydro is that it's messy, too much equipment to buy and maintain, very little cushion for mistakes, and you need to check it daily. Right now, I've got a grow going in a buddy's house, all he has to do is water it and feed it according to the directions. Nothing complicated, if he forgets to water for a couple days, nothing is going to happen. If the water levels get too low in hydro.. you're fucked, soil holds moisture MUCH better than air.

Your mother plant would be the one to use the SCROG technique on, so that you can use the available light efficiently. I'd go with 2-3 good cfl bulbs per square foot for her, cool white of course.

Oh, as far as cloning, check out my thread (I think you may have already.. dunno) search for "DIY bubbler cloner" the roots are going insane, and that's what you're looking for right? I'd go for a bubbler cloner rather than the rockwool method, for several reasons, one being that when you transplant, the rockwool will get kinda funky and attract unwanted pests/ fungus or bacteria.

I know you like doing the Scrog, but that's really designed more for people that only want a few large plants, it doesn't yield as much, takes a lot longer in veg, and honestly is a big headache. Just grow all the clones uniformly, quickly, and then you'll be able to use your floor space much more efficiently. Oh, and you'll have bigger buds because each bud will be a cola or slightly smaller rather than a bunch of little vienna sausage buds from a SCROG grow.

as for yield predictions, check out YOR - Advanced Yield Calculator (http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/yor/yieldcalcadvanced.htm) I put your data in and got 1.16 pounds in soil and 1.38 pounds in hydro.

I'd say personally you could get at LEAST twice that. I know I can get up to 4 ounces per square foot.

[zlessley]

A CO2 system cost is mainly in the computer, then the valve. I've had no problems just getting a big tank refilled every so often, just say you use it for welding. Cops aren't looking for CO2 transactions, if you're really worried, just pay cash. Just buy things from different places.
Not sure on the wattage of the cfls, just use the most powerful ones you can afford, stick with the curved ones that fit in a normal socket.

[Dren]

Muchas gracias for the info. I'm not overly attached to the scrog grow by any means, I had looked into a lot of different options before physically setting up the current grow and it seemed to be a good fit for the environment.

I am finding out that I need less space than I was anticipating for each plant which is nice (I overestimated the spacing for plants when planning just to be on the safe side rather than overplant and end up with a shitty crop) so I may be upgrading my lights after this grow and adding co2 to the mix. Given what I've found out from the current grow as well as some of the info here it makes more sense to go with a sog setup.

Thanks for the link on that calculator, it'll give me at least a ballpark estimate on yields which should be very useful.

[zlessley]

De nada homes, you know, some people grow 4 plants PER SQUARE FOOT! they yield a nice bit too! Think about it, if you use twice as many plants, you can do half as much veg time, and yield more consistently sized/potent buds. That and you can really save on vertical space (not that you need to)

Oh.. and dude, if you're worried about the police.. maybe you shouldn't tell everyone you live in kansas... I apparently live out in the aussie bush ;)

[Dren]

don't worry, I'm just as much a kansan as you are an aussie, ha

[zlessley]

ahaha, nice, fooled me! (strokes a rusty spoon... nice avatar)

[PharmaCan]

Dren - you originally asked about a ScrOG. I just finished my first scrog and got 2.5 lbs from four plants in 18 sq. ft./1,400 watts. I'm starting a new scrog in the same space with six plants, to cut down on the veg time. I made a lot of mistakes on my first scrog. I would have yielded a lot more than the 2.5 lbs. if I had done everything right. The point is, you don't need a lot of plants to get a big yield. Compared to a SOG, the ScrOG will require more veg time. But a couple more weeks isn't the end of the world.

I live in a med-legal state where the maximum number of plants is six per person and I keep my grows legal. In most states, the penalties for growing pot increase with the number of plants. In the I-hope-it-never-happens event that you have to interface with law enforcement, you would probably be better off with fewer plants than with many - and that is where ScrOG beats SOG hands down.

just a little food for thought...

PC :smokin:

[chrisdl805]

Dren - you originally asked about a ScrOG. I just finished my first scrog and got 2.5 lbs from four plants in 18 sq. ft./1,400 watts. I'm starting a new scrog in the same space with six plants, to cut down on the veg time. I made a lot of mistakes on my first scrog. I would have yielded a lot more than the 2.5 lbs. if I had done everything right. The point is, you don't need a lot of plants to get a big yield. Compared to a SOG, the ScrOG will require more veg time. But a couple more weeks isn't the end of the world.

I live in a med-legal state where the maximum number of plants is six per person and I keep my grows legal. In most states, the penalties for growing pot increase with the number of plants. In the I-hope-it-never-happens event that you have to interface with law enforcement, you would probably be better off with fewer plants than with many - and that is where ScrOG beats SOG hands down.

just a little food for thought...

PC :smokin:

Hey pharma I had a few questions about your scrog as I'm about to start my first one in a few weeks. My flower room is about 7'x4' I have one 400w , and one 600w , that are both aircooled. Right now I have about 10 bubba kush clones in coco that I'm vegging with my spectra max 4ft T5. Of those ten I will pick out the best and use them in my scrog...I also have a co2 comp. and humidity/ temp contoller hooked up to an exhaust fan and carbon can filter. Right now I only have one 4" passive intake, so I think I need a few more as my exhaust is 6" and I read you need 3x the intake of your exhaust.

What mistakes did you make and what would you have done different? 2.5lbs from 4 plants sounds pretty dam good to me, but if you can get more out of it awesome. How many plants would you reccomnd for my area 28 sq. ft. what did you grow in? I'm thinking of transplanting them into Promix if I can find it in CA or Bio-bizz All MIX. If I cant find them or there too expensive to have shipped I might try mixing my own soil with peat moss, perlite, maybe some vermiculite amd some lime of course. This is a medical grow and I cant grow more than 12 plants right now, but I doubt I will need that many in a scrog anyway.

I also noticed someone said co2 is good from the babies? I only heard of using co2 while in flower...

[PharmaCan]

chrisdl805 - The main problem with my scrog was that a light I ordered took 3.5 weeks to arrive so my plants vegged and vegged and so the training was all fucked up. I also learned that I should have second screen, about 12" above the first, to support the buds when they start getting big.

1000 watts isn't really enough for 28 sq. ft. - it's 35.7 watts/sq. ft. If the lights are centered, you'll probably get air buds around the perimeter but, what the hell, if you have 20 sq. ft. of nice solid buds, you should be happy. ...and the air buds make good hash.

You could easily do your area with six plants; and that would allow you a second grow of six plants while still being within the law.

PC :smokin:

[zlessley]

Chris, I mentioned the CO2 for seedlings, yes, they benefit a lot from it when they're just getting started, not as much when vegging, and more in the last half of flowering