Pls help - Dying indoor seedlings. FULL details & pics incl.

[Tom.Bombadil]

Hi
We have just started up our first indoor garden after growing a few times outdoors. We wanted to move into hydroponics but have begun with soil based seedlings to take cuttings from. Unfortunately we messed up a few things making the soil for the first seedlings and they didn't do so well. While trying to get that soil right we've started off a different batch from a different breed of seeds in a new batch of soil.

We started off the first batch outside (it's just coming into summer here). The soil was made with the following recipe:
50% Peat
25% Sand
25% Pumice
+ two and a half pounds of lime per 4 gallons of soil (we mistakenly used garden lime instead of dolomite lime â?? we know this is bad)
They first sprouted lime green, the growth was quite stunted from the start and yellowing of the leaves began at an early stage. As we began to read and learn more about possible problems, and after bringing them inside, we thought that soil pH might be where we were going wrong. We soon learnt that the garden lime we had bought at our local garden store was not dolomite lime. Our cheap Rainbow Soil pH Testing Kit gave a soil pH reading of approx. 7.8 so we leached the soil with water with a pH of 6.3-6.5 on numerous occasions. The water that runs off the soil seems to have a consistent pH of 7.3 (+/- 0.1). With that not working, we have tried leaching with a very small amount of flowers of sulphur which eventually brought it down to its current reading of 7.3. We are waiting on an accurate Control Wizard Soil pH and moisture meter to arrive from eBay so we can get more accurate results.

In the meantime we started off some new seeds in what seem like a better soil recipe:
50% fine pumice
25% neem coil (expanded from a brick with pH 6.5 water)
25% worm castings
+ one tablespoon of dolomite lime per pot
And one teaspoon of Rootblast (http://agr.wa.gov/Pestfert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.asp?pname=2769) per 10 liters of soil.

They only sprouted a few days ago but are already showing signs of yellowing and browning. Both batches look like they may not survive without your help! Please tell us where we might be going wrong.

First batch (pictures attached to post):
OBSERVATIONS ABOUT PLANTS: Most leaves on the bottom have died and curled upwards. They are brown and some seem to have a white/yellow vein down the middle. Second to bottom leaves are yellow/white and starting to brown through center. Brown spots are starting to form and expand on some of the yellow leaves. The top few leaves on some plants are greener than the others but still not nearly as green as a healthy plant.
POT SIZE: 1.5L
MEDIUM: Soil â?? recipe above.
WATERING SCHEME: 150ml of pH 6.5 water per pot at lights out (except after leaching)
FEEDING: 5ml per 4 liters of both Earth Juice Grow (http://www.altgarden.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=181) and Earth Juice Catalyst (http://www.altgarden.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=183) every 2nd watering (every second day). We have also included Superthrive (http://www.superthrive.com/) at a rate of 0.5ml per 4 liters (half strength).
LIGHT/ DISTANCE FROM PLANT: General Electric Lucagrow 600w HPS Bulb mounted 58 cm from plants.
PH LEVEL: Is currently 7.3 although we are using a Rainbow Soil pH Testing Kit and have heard that they are unreliable. Have just ordered an accurate Control Wizard Soil Moisture and pH Meter with 12â?� probe.
AGE: Couple of months old
STAGE: Vegetative

Second Batch (pictures attached to post):
OBSERVATIONS ABOUT PLANTS: First sign of disease was a prominent yellow spot on the sprouts (both on surface and indented into the leaves). The yellowing continued. Some tips have turned brown and look as if theyâ??re rotting or being eaten. Signs of tips yellowing on first set of real leaves just happening now.
POT SIZE: 0.5L
MEDIUM: Soil â?? recipe above
WATERING SCHEME: 150ml of pH 6.5 water per pot at lights out (except after leaching)
FEEDING: No fertilizer other than Superthrive (http://www.superthrive.com/) at a rate of 0.5ml per 4 liters (half strength).
LIGHT/ DISTANCE FROM PLANT: General Electric Lucagrow 600w HPS Bulb mounted 58 cm from plants.
PH LEVEL: Is also 7.3 although we are using a Rainbow Soil pH Testing Kit and have heard that they are unreliable. Have just ordered an accurate Control Wizard Soil Moisture and pH Meter with 12â?� probe.
AGE: Couple of months old
STAGE: Vegetative

Thanks a lot for your help
The Toms

[whatsthatsmell]

first and foremost, your soil pH MUST be between 6.5-6.9, this is the runoff pH. Your seeing the effects of wrong pH and stop feeding, DO NOT feed until the 5th node or 30days, that is typical. You need to get that pH down first and see how your plant reacts.

Soil pH testing:
Test water prior to going into the medium, add straight water to the soil and catch the run off, test that soil and see where your medium is. You will then adjust your fresh water to the correct pH to lower your medium and then run that water thru your medium until you read 6.5-6.9. Your plants will react to that within the first 24hours.

Also, just feed your plants straight water, no superthrive or anything

Your soil being 50% peat is WAY to hot (meaning that the ph will be too high for your plants) You need to change that soil mixture, take a look at Stinkyattics sig, she has a nice recipe there for some medium that will take care ALOT of your pH issues right from the start.

In your second pic that you posted, you can see that one of your plants is just about dead due to the pH being so high, that plant mostlikely is beyond recovery, so you might want to pull that one out before it causes more problems for ya.

[stinkyattic]

Your soil mixes are a mess.
Neem coil I assume you mean coir? I can't imagine what else it might be. Coco has a bad habit of binding calcium, plus it's a soilless mix and needs to be treated like hydroponics, but you've added a ton of lime to raise the pH... ehhh... where did you get that soil mix anyway?

In my sig there is a link that includes a simple and very good soil mix.

For seedlings, you should either start them in rapidrooters or an unferted seedling starter mix like farfard. Happy Frog soil is fine too. If you have to go with a potting mix from the garden center, flush it out well and add some extra perlite before use.

Your soil holds too much moisture (from the pumice dust), traps Ca (coir), and is the wrong pH, among other things. Those plants are FRIED. Even if they survive, the chances of stunting or hermaphroditism are very high.

[Tom.Bombadil]

Thanks for your help

We got the soil mix from our local hydro store. We've taken a look at the soil mix on your signature, stinkyattic. Unfortunately we're outside the US and the brands you mention aren't available here. We couldn't even find another humus/manure mix available, though prelite was easy. We've bought a bag of organic compost and another bag of organic sheep manure in the hopes of approximately recreating the agway mix ourselves but don't have any idea of the ratio. Would this work? Would you have any idea of the ratios we should use?

In terms of the seedlings, Rapid Rooters aren't available here, nor any of the other products you mention. We tried to get some unfert. seedling raising mix but couldn't find any either. We can get hold of Jiffy Peat cubes, Oasis Cubes & Rockwool cubes if you recommend any of those for seedlings.

Cheers

[stinkyattic]

The sheep manure may be quite 'hot', and DEFINITELY is too rich for seedlings. Hang on to it for later.
You can try out those peat pucks for starting seedlings- they do hold a lot of water, so be careful about that, but they'll work okay. Just shred the mesh a little before you plant them.
REmember plants don't want fertilizer of any sort until they are on their 5th set of true leaves.

[Tom.Bombadil]

Thanks for all your help. I've been reading all around the forum and you should be commended on your tireless efforts helping out all the growers out there who keep screwing things up like us.

As far as our current seedlings go - we can't legally buy or import seeds into our country and our only source of clones has seemingly disappeared off the planet. We now only have 4 seeds left (!!!). We were hoping if possible to do anything we could to save the seedlings we have if only to use them for seed production.

Is there anything you'd recommend to save them now other than holding off the ferts? Would repotting them into a different soil be a good idea? How about leaching out the ferts?

Thanks again.

[whatsthatsmell]

you can try and save those last of them, but you gotta get that pH down, and stop feeding nutes, you should start seeing an improvement after a couple of days, if nothing happens after awhile then yo ur gonna have to start over. Its not dead dead yet, theres still some green on there and you can probably save it, but its gonna take some time and care to get those last ones up to normal. Try getting a soilless mix from a hydro store if you can, but you have to get that pH down some how in order to save those plants.