Answers about CFL, HPS, How Much Light...

[Roughrider]

Although I'm still kind of a new poster, I keep seeing a lot of the same comments--many of which are answered an Dr. Khronik's excellent El Cheapo Guide to Lighting (http://http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-lighting/121311-el-cheapo-guide-lighting.html). But there are a few things I'd like to add in regard to watts, lumens, cfl, hps, and efficiency and how much light you need. Maybe this should be stickied?

Watts have nothing to do with light or growth. Watts measure how much power a light fixture uses to produce light. You can tell how efficient a light bulb is by looking at watts. A 23 watt CFL produces as much light as a 100 watt incandescent...even though the incandescent has more watts, it's useless. See what I mean?

What you care about is light...more specifically, light energy. That's what plants use during photosynthesis/growth. Light is measured in lumens. In my experience and reading, lumen amounts per sq. ft./sq. m. look like this

2000 lumens sq. ft./21500 lumens sq. m. = Absolute minimum for growth. You won't get much from this, especially after the plant has grown a bit. Not really enough to flower well.

3000 lumens sq. ft./32250 lumens sq. m. = Pretty Good growth. Enough light for the entire light cycle, although your yields may be lower.
4000 lumens sq. ft./43000 lumens sq. m. = Very good growth. Once you pass around 3500, growth rate and ability goes up fast.

Over 5000 lumens sq. ft./53750 lumens sq. m. = Optimal growth. Dense growth in all stages.

Keep in mind that using reflectors, using mylar or having flat white walls, and keeping your lights close to your plants keep you from wasting lumens. It's not just about having light, it's about getting the light to your plants. IMO, people ofter overbuy lights. This creates more light, but the light isn't always hitting the plants. And that creates more heat and ventilation issues, which causes stress problems.

That's why it's still impossible to tell anything about growth or yield based on just lumens. A guy that has an HPS that is too far away from plants that have no walls near them and no ventilation may get poorer results than a grower with CFLs that uses reflectors and has a couple of lights under the canopy in a well-ventilated spot.

HPS lights are often said to generate more heat than CFLs. That's not really true...it's just that they are more efficient at producing light, and there's a smaller surface area on the bulb itself for the resulting heat to dissipate. That means more ventilation. But the higher amount of lumens per watt means you use less power and get greater light penetration through your canopy. Still, I'm a believer that well used CFL's can give you great grows with less ventilation and heat issues. If you're in a small to very small area (less than 4 sq. ft./.25 sq. m.), I'd consider the advantages of CFLs in that way.

But HPS is more efficient. A typical 250 watt HPS bulb/unit will produce about 27,000 lumens. I've seen people use a 250w in a 3' x 3' room and get good results. That's 9 sq. ft. which = 3000 lumens a sq. ft. (Really, a 250w HPS is better in a smaller area.) to give you an idea of the difference in efficiency of CFL vs. HPS, think of this.

23w CFL = 1600 lumens = 69.6 lumens/watt
30w CFL = 2000 lumens = 66.7 lumens/watt
40w CFL = 2600 lumens = 66.3 lumens/watt

compared to

150w HPS = 14000 lumens = 93.3 lumens/watt
250w HPS = 28000 lumens = 112 lumens/watt
400w HPS = 50000 lumens = 125 lumens/watt
600w HPS = 90000 lumens = 150 lumens/watt

So you can see that HPS is more efficient than CFL...and as you get into bigger HPS bulbs, it becomes a lot more efficient. There's also fewer hassles with multiple cords and saved money on your energy bill. If you've got a big area and/or you can deal with the heat and ventilation, HPS is the way to go in flowering. Still, I'm a believer in small HPS lights and combo HPS/CFL grows...if you've got a 2' x 2' room, you can use a 150w HPS and 4 23w CFLs from Wal-Mart and get a terrific grow with very few heat issues.

Hope this helps some people. And, yes, I wrote it all. :)

[Dutch Pimp]

Good post. Well said.....:thumbsup:

[growbe]

A very good post when it comes to comparing CFL to HID in terms of Lumens and such but, plants "see" light differently than human beings do. As a result, lumens, lux or foot-candles should not be used to measure light for plant growth since they are measures used for human visibility. More correct measures for plants are PAR watts, PPF PAR and YPF PAR, although each in itself does not tell the whole story. In addition to quantity of light, considerations of quality are important, since plants use energy in different parts of the spectrum for critical processes.
Plants are sensitive to a similar portion of the spectrum as is the human eye. This portion of the light spectrum is referred to as photo synthetically active radiation or PAR, namely about 400 to 700 nanometers in wavelength. Nevertheless, plant response within this region is very different from that of humans.
The human eye has a peak sensitivity in the yellow-green region, around 550 nanometers. This is the "optic yellow" color used for highly visible signs and objects. Plants, on the other hand, respond more effectively to red light and to blue light, the peak being in the red region at around 630 nanometers.
Red light provides the most efficient food for plants. However, a plant illuminated only with red or orange light will fail to develop sufficient bulk. Leafy growth (vegetative growth) and bulk also require blue light. Many other complex processes are triggered by light required from different regions of the spectrum. The correct portion of the spectrum varies from species to species. However, the quantity of light needed for plant growth and health can be measured, assuming that all portions of the spectrum are adequately covered. Light for plants cannot, however, be measured with the same standards used to measure light for humans.
First, how do we measure light quantity for humans? The obvious way is based on how bright the source appears and how "well" the eye sees under the light. Since the human eye is particularly sensitive to yellow light, more weight is given to the yellow region of the spectrum and the contributions from blue and red light are largely discounted. This is the basis for rating the total amount of light emitted by a source in lumens.
The light emitted from the source is then distributed over the area to be illuminated. The illumination is measured in "lux", a measurement of how many lumens falls on each square meter of surface. An illumination of 1000 lux implies that 1000 lumens are falling on each square meter of surface. Similarly, "foot-candles" is the term for the measure of how many lumens are falling on each square foot of surface.
Clearly, both lumens and lux (or foot-candles) refer specifically to human vision and not to the way plants see light.
How then should the rating for plant lighting be accomplished? There are two basic approaches to develop this rating: measuring energy or counting photons.
PAR Watts for Plants
Watts is an objective measure of energy being used or emitted by a lamp each second. Energy itself is measured in joules, and 1 joule per second is called a watt. A 100 watt incandescent bulb uses up 100 joules of electrical energy every second. How much light energy is it generating? About 6 joules per second or 6 watts, but the efficiency of the lamp is only 6%, a rather dismal number. The rest of the energy is dissipated mainly as heat. Modern discharge lamps like high pressure sodium (HPS) and metal halide convert (typically) 30% to 40% of the electrical energy into light. They are significantly more efficient than incandescent bulbs.
Since plants use energy between 400 and 700 nanometers and light in this region is called Photo synthetically Active Radiation or PAR, we could measure the total amount of energy emitted per second in this region and call it PAR watts. This is an objective measure in contrast to lumens which is a subjective measure since it is based on the response of the subjects (humans). A PAR watt directly indicates how much light energy is available for plants to use in photosynthesis.
The output of a 400 watt incandescent bulb is about 25 watts of light, a 400 watt metal halide bulb emits about 140 watts of light. If PAR is considered to correspond more or less to the visible region, then a 400 watt metal halide lamp provides about 140 watts of PAR. A 400 watt HPS lamps has less PAR, typically 120 to 128 watts, but because the light is yellow it is rated at higher lumens (for the human eye).
Since plant response does "spill out" beyond the 400 nanometer and 700 nanometer boundaries, some researchers refer to the 350 â?? 750 nanometer region as the PAR region. Using this expanded region will lead to mildly inflated PAR ratings compared to the more conservative approach in this discussion. However, the difference is small.
While HPS and incandescent lamps are fixed in their spectral output, metal halide lamps are available in a broad range of color temperatures and spectral outputs. With this in mind, the discriminating grower can choose a lamp that provides the best spectral output for his specific needs.

[Dutch Pimp]

This is two examples of light spectrums: for 2 different light bulbs. The first one is a High Pressure Sodium bulb, the second one is a Metal Halide bulb.

[Gundari]

Got a question for you light smart guys ^^

as of late ive been reading about how i should be using a 5700 light spectrum bulb for vegging and a 2700 for flowering ( think those numbers are accurate, if they arent they are atleast close). I use all cfls and i was curious as to if there is a way to tell exactly what light spectrum the bulbs putting out by looking at the bulb itself? I bought the parts for and setup a rubbermaid box grow a while ago and ive just gotten into flowering and id like to make sure i have the 2700's in there. I know i could just go out buy some of them and put them in but id rather not waste the money if i already made the mistake of using them for vegging. So...anyone got an anwser for me? ^^

[Dutch Pimp]

Some manufacturers put the Kelvin temp info on the CFL bulb or package, but it seems like most don't. It's enough to drive a person nuts. Plus the confusing terms: "cool white" or "warm daylight". If you don't see the Kelvin temp number, you don't know for sure, otherwise, they all look alike to me....:stoned:

6500K=veg
2700K=flower

They do better with Floro tubes.

[Roughrider]

First, to growbe. Technically you may be right (although PAR watts don't account for differentials in energy to produce blue and red photons). But you're overcomplicating things for a grow light FAQ. If you've got lights in the correct end of the spectrum (blue light for veg growth; red light for flowering), lumen output is much, much easier to determine and almost as accurate.

The guys at Sunmaster--where you cut and pasted your info from, yes?--will give you all sorts of computations to discuss PAR watts and PPF PAR. But, realistically, the differences between that and lumen output if you're using the right bulb is fairly small...small enough so that doing the equation for PAR watts isn't worth it unless you're doing a grow over lots of square meters. And that's if you know how many PAR watts your bulb puts out; most people don't for a very good reason. Manufacturers usually don't list them. It's kind of a marketing ploy if you ask me.

Put it this way...a pretty typical 400w HPS puts out around 125 PAR watts. For top level growth, you need 135 PAR watts per sq. m.; 105 will go a good job; 75 will get you by, but you'll lose some yield. So your 400w HPS grow light will do a great job on .93 square m., a good job on 1.19 sq. m., and a mediocre job on 1.67 sq. m

But it's a lot easier to just look at the lumens...you get around 50,000 lumens from a 400w HPS. I said that 5000 lumens sq. ft./53750 a sq. m. gives you a top level grow, 4000 lumens sq. ft./43000 a sq. m. gives you a good grow, and 3000 lumens sq. ft./32250 a sq. m. gets you an okay grow with lower yields. If you use lumens instead of PAR, you get these numbers: .93 of a sq. m. for a great grow, 1.16 sq. m. for a good grow, and 1.55 sq. m. for a mediocre grow. Like I said, the difference in the calculations is small.

Still, you could argue that PAR is more exact...except very few bulb manufacturers list PAR watts for their bulbs. But almost all of them list lumens and color temp (kelvin).

So keep it simple. If you're going heavy into growth and have access to PAR watts...good for you. If you're buying your bulbs at Wal-Mart or a regular store or (my favorite) 1000bulbs.com...just go with the lumens and make sure your bulbs are in the right spectrum. To answer your question Gundari...some, but not all (or many) bulbs will list their spectrum. (Sometimes its listed like this--2700k or 2.7mk, which both stand for 2700 kelvin.) The best bet is to look at the box they came in. Barring that--lights for flowering are in the lower end of the visible spectrum. They'll look noticeably yellower or, as they say, "softer." Daylight bulbs--6500k is best--will be bright white. Hope this helps.

[Gundari]

Figured id get an anwser that was along the lines of "your outta luck" Mine are kinda a soft white...atleast thats what i think they are but i dont really have anything to compare against. Suppose next time im at lowes or somewhere similar to that ill look and see if i can find anything anything in the 2700k area. Ty for the help.

[growbe]

Who cares where I got the info. the fact is that I have done lots of homework when it comes to lighting like you. Most peeps just look at lumens "hey isn't this light bright, man I have to ware sun glasses!" and off they go to the races. We all know, well maybe not, that like you said in your first post (Still, I'm a believer in small HPS lights and combo HPS/CFL grows), dual spectrum works best for the entire grow. If you can't find out the par watts, call any manufacturer and they will tell you after a few forwards-it's not hard, just takes some effort, and not just searching these boards where 90 percent of the answers are: mh for veg, hps for flower-and get the most lumens-not!. I use to grow mh during veg and hps during flower. I use to go by lumens only but could not understand why my grows did not get any better/bigger when I went with the fancy/overpriced high lumen bulbs. Hmmmmm, I wonder why.
Anyhoo, yes I'm a firm believer of the KISS method, and there are plenty of great grows where people just look at lumens. Hell, my ave. yield under a 1000 watt bulb was around 34 oz's, and lumens was all I looked at. First time I went dual (600,400), same strain from clone-38 oz's and the plants were much healthier.
Here's a pretty good site-kind of old: Grow Marijuana FAQ, Cannabis cultivation - marijuana growing tips & photos (http://www.drugs-forum.com/growfaq/945.htm)
And the best damn 400 watt bulb on the mrkt. Phlips MasterColor Ceramic Metal Halide ~ CMH ~ HPS-Retro White (http://advancedtechlighting.com/cdmed18.htm)
Peace and good luck to all.

[Roughrider]

It's great that you call up light manufacturers for PAR wattage and have 1000w grows. (btw...having two separate lights is often better because the intersection points of the two lights have an area that is receiving good light from two directions. It's like a Venn diagram.) But most people aren't doing grows that big. Lots of people live in foreign countries where they can't just call light manufacturers. And, again, you don't get any particular benefit from PAR watt information IMO. The people that are pimping PAR watts are grow light manufacturers. There are plenty of threads that discuss whether PAR is useful, but I'm just not seeing a whole lot of positive response from actual growers.

I'm glad you did better in a grow with a change in bulbs...but, honestly, what you're describing is a 10% difference in yield. And, as someone who has obviously done a lot of grows, you know that a ton of things can affect things that much...from having lights one inch closer, to having the dual light overlap I mentioned above, to a small change in water salts, to having a bulb that's been used twice before and has lost ten percent of its output.

For most people doing small to medium grows--let's just say under 1.75 sq meters or 20 square feet--you can make life a lot easier by using proper reflectors, keeping walls and surfaces close to your plants properly reflective, getting good ventilation. This is especially true with the small grows (under 6 sq. ft.) that a lot of people do here. My goal with this thread was to talk to them. Using lumens to compute lights needed is both easy and practical for them. Necessary light, ways to use all the light you have, not overlighting if you don't need to to avoid extra heat and stress...that's the type of practical information that I think people want. And I wish you luck with all grows, growbe.

[growbe]

I no longer grow using a 1000 watt system. I'm now just a 670 watter. I took one of my old super sun reflectors and cut a hole on the opposite side. I now have an eye 400 blue on one end and a 270 watt super agro on the other. Makes for a pretty good over all spectrum. And I get get almost the same yield as before with a mover.
By the way, in regards to the 1000 watt compared to the, 600 and 400, there was a drastic change in plant and bud structure.
I have my grows pretty damn dialed in, but I'm no pro. It's just a hobby for me.
Peace

[stinkyattic]

Crap. I was about to make this a sticky and it got off topic. I'm going to pick the individual Qs out, give them their own thread, and stick this. It will be useful.

[Chronisseur]

Gundari; You really want the 'Daylight' bulbs for vegging. They're 6500k and emit a full spectrum for maximum growth. Come flower, I think numbers could be argued, but you'll want a few 3500k 42watt CFLs IMO. For flower; I guess you could say the redder the better;)
Good Luck!

Nice thread; keep up the good posts:thumbsup:

[solid6]

Growbe how many plants do you have inside that sunroom? also what sq. footage is that and how much light covers it? I noticed you made that growroom yourself and inspired me to use my pragmatic ingenuity in creating my own. Im fairly new though, only having one solo grow and wanting a bit of experienced advice.

[jmello]

i have a question...dutch pimp was saying 6500k for veg and 2700k for flower but im looking at 1000bulbs.com and they have MH at 4200k and HPS at 2100k will that make a difference at all??

[Dutch Pimp]

i have a question...dutch pimp was saying 6500k for veg and 2700k for flower but im looking at 1000bulbs.com and they have MH at 4200k and HPS at 2100k will that make a difference at all??
No, the MH and HPS are fine like that. The HID lights have their own rules...:D...MH for veg....HPS...for flowering.

The 6500k and 2700k are the preferred color temps for CFL's.

[turksteelman]

If someone runs a New wave T5 4' long by 21" wide with 6500k bulbs that all contribute to 40k lumens, would that be enough to flower also?

[Roughrider]

INSpectadeck...there are 144 square inches in a square foot. so, for your area,

18" x 18" = 324 sq. in.
324/144 = 2.25 sq. ft.

You've got 2.25 sq. ft. Really, you want to have at least 4000 lumens per square foot...5000 and up is better. At 1600 lumens per bulb, you should have 6 bulbs or more. In that small of an area, I'd try it with 6 bulbs and make sure that the wall surfaces reflect well. Check out some of the Rubbermaid grows on here...they have grow areas similar in sized to yours. See what type/how many lights they use, and how they did.

turksteelman...yes, you'll do a GREAT job with a T5 like that. 40000 lumes is good for 8 sq. ft. with no problem...that's 48" x 24". And you can use the T5 in flowering too...just switch out some/all of the bulbs for 3000k bulbs. HTG supply sells those for 4 for $20.

High Tech Garden Supply (http://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=47370)

Good luck to both of you!

[dgsgandalf]

I have a 400 watt MH setup from HTG Supply. What kind of results will i get if i try flowering my plants with this bulb compared to a 400 watt HPS or with a conversion bulb for my current setup?

[Dutch Pimp]

I have a 400 watt MH setup from HTG Supply. What kind of results will i get if i try flowering my plants with this bulb compared to a 400 watt HPS or with a conversion bulb for my current setup?
Many growers flower with MH...some like it...some don't.

Your gonna have to try it one way...then the other...to know which is best for you....:cool:

[theelectrician]

on a budget ide say mh more flexibile lt spectrum is fuller and with the right bulb plenty of red spectrum

[Opie Yutts]

I'm going by this chart for the correct colors until someone shows me a better way.

Preferably 5700 for veg, second choice 6100.
Preferably 2450 for bud, second choice 2750.

In between on either is bad.

[bombdiggity]

i dont like this RoughRider character.

who's with me

[fiddyonefiddy]

all you'r specs are only length and width wheres the height?
this is a three dimensional world isnt it,you gotta splain it to me lucy, cause i dont know how you figure all this without height being a factor, or distance from the plant.
so please add that in your formula so use newbies can figure it out .
thanks

[Opie Yutts]

Uh, why? What did he ever do to you? True, I don't exactly agree with everything he's saying, but that's not a reason to dislike someone. At least he's making an effort to contribute things he cares about or is interested in. I like everyone until they give me a reason not to, and he's given me no such reason so far. In this world of billions of different opinions and thought processes, it doesn't make much sense to dislike the people that think differently than myself. That would pretty much be everbody.

[fiddyonefiddy]

i didnt see anything wrong with rough either what ya mean?
i thought it was informative reading.
ima a dork you did say squared my bad dodedooo

[Roughrider]

i dont like this RoughRider character.

who's with me

And you are...? And what did I do to piss you off?


Uh, why? What did he ever do to you? True, I don't exactly agree with everything he's saying, but that's not a reason to dislike someone. At least he's making an effort to contribute things he cares about or is interested in. I like everyone until they give me a reason not to, and he's given me no such reason so far. In this world of billions of different opinions and thought processes, it doesn't make much sense to dislike the people that think differently than myself. That would pretty much be everbody.

Thanks, man. Not saying I'm an expert, but I'm good with lighting and math and have some experience.

The reason I started this thread was for fairly new growers because, in my experience, they often don't understand light. Because of that, they either make things too complicated (PAR watts is a good example) or have too much or too little light. Often, I see first time growers describing their new grow areas and I think, "Man, you do NOT need that much light." After a certain point, extra light results in heat and stress issues. My basic belief is that people should always start small and simple and cheap and learn from their mistakes. This thread is just trying to eliminate some of those mistakes.


all you'r specs are only length and width wheres the height?
this is a three dimensional world isnt it,you gotta splain it to me lucy, cause i dont know how you figure all this without height being a factor, or distance from the plant.
so please add that in your formula so use newbies can figure it out .
thanks

The height of your grow area isn't as important in terms of light. It's important for ventilation and heat questions--to see how many cubic feet your room is and figure out if a fan is clearing/circulating enough air, for instance. And a smaller overall grow area will retain more heat. But, really, height is only an issue as it relates to heat and air and how tall you want your plants to be...if you've got enough air circulation and can keep your temps down, how tall/short your grow area is doesn't matter, as long as it's big enough for your plants.

(For heat...do the hand thing. Put your hand a foot or so under your HID grow light. Feel any heat? If not, good. If you feel only a little, okay. If it's pretty warm, you need to raise your lights or have a taller grow area. I know this is covered in other threads better than I am doing it here...just search for that.)

[Opie Yutts]

Thanks for your input Roughrider. Your words have iron.

[bombdiggity]

sorry idk what was with me.

please forgive me D:

[Damion5050]

Question about light roughrider.. I am starting my very first grow.. My space is 3 foot wide 3 foot deep and 6 foot tall.. How many lumiens do you think I need or is there a "FORMULA" that you know so I can figure it out.. Because once I solve my light issue then I can get to growing.. :thumbsup:

[fishens]

Hey Gundari, if you are still around (sorry just read thread), I have a Philips fouro tube box. On the box it states:
soft white = 3000k
cool white plus = 4100k
30 watt bulb.
Just in case you can read the tube..sorry all I have are soft white right now. Don't know if this helps or if maybe I am too late.

good luck
Fishens:jointsmile:

[Roughrider]

Question about light roughrider.. I am starting my very first grow.. My space is 3 foot wide 3 foot deep and 6 foot tall.. How many lumiens do you think I need or is there a "FORMULA" that you know so I can figure it out.. Because once I solve my light issue then I can get to growing.. :thumbsup:

3' x 3' = 9 sq. ft.

5000 lumens per sq. ft. and you'll do fine. So that's

9 x 5000 = 45000 lumens

...which is pretty much dead on what you'll get from a 400w HPS. I would use that to flower. It will cover your entire grow area very well. Make the most of the light--flat white plant or mylar on the walls.

However, for veg, I stick with the budget alternative. Get two 10.5" clamp lights at Wal-Mart for $10 each. Get six Y-socket splitters for $1.50 each. Get three three packs of 26w GE Daylight (6500k) CFLs for $8.00 each. Put one Y-socket into each of the clamp lights and then a Y-socket into each end of the screwed in Y-socket. Now you've got four bulb sockets for each clamp light with a good reflector. Those lights will put out about about 7,000 lumens each...perfect for taking 6-8 plants through the first few weeks of vegging. IMO, CFLs do the best job in vegging...each one of those could even take a plant all the way through flower if you wanted. Regardless, it's $55 well spent.

[RackitMan]

23w CFL = 1600 lumens = 69.6 lumens/watt
30w CFL = 2000 lumens = 66.7 lumens/watt
40w CFL = 2600 lumens = 66.3 lumens/watt

compared to

150w HPS = 14000 lumens = 93.3 lumens/watt
250w HPS = 28000 lumens = 112 lumens/watt
400w HPS = 50000 lumens = 125 lumens/watt
600w HPS = 90000 lumens = 150 lumens/watt


There is a 32 watt CFL (by Supra Lite? I can look it up if interested) that gets 73 lumens/watt. That is the best CFL ratio I have found.

And a 2 foot 2 tube T5 Biax system that gets 84.5 lumens/watt. This appears to be the best for tube fluorescents.

Might be worthwhile to add this info as the ratios are definitely coming much closer to HPS.

[Roughrider]

Almost all CFLs are in the 65-75 lumens per watt area, and it doesn't seem to be improving much or soon. I think 75 is the upper barrier for CFLs; it may get to 80. You're right...T5s are more efficient. I've heard of them getting 90 or even a little more lumens per watt.

But once you get to a 250w HPS, you're going to get at least 100 lumens per watt. The difference between 70 and 100 doesn't sound like much, but it is. To cover a 5 sq. ft. area, you can use one 250w HPS. Or you can use about 360 watts of CFLs. CFLs are great for grows in less than 3 or 4 sq. ft. Once you get to 5 sq. ft. and above, HPS (or T5, I guess) is just better.

Thing is, a lot of people do grow in 4 sq. ft. or less, and CFLs will do a great, great job in situations like that with a minimum of hassle or start up costs.

[tomm01]

sorry double post

[tomm01]

Ok so I somehow found this site about Australian Street lights (who the hell makes a site about that? lol) but anyway I'm glad they did because it tells me 99% of Victorian (where I live) street lights have changed to HPS. I was wondering how much it would cost approximately to get a ffixture/lamp/whatever you use for one of these street light globes. Anyone have any idea?

[tomm01]

Ok so dw about my last question, I went to Bunnings and tried to get a 400watt hps coz it was only $30 then I asked this guy what I would use to plug it in to and he said "I dunno" then asked this other lady working there and she said "what're you using it for" and the guy goes "growing his marijuana" and i just fake laughed and said "nah im using it for plants though". F*$^ my blood was boiling he was one of those typical 'stoners are lowlifes' people.

Anyway point is I can't get anything for HPS so can anyone give me detailed info on how to connect 4 CFL's to one extension cable? Then connect the cable into a wall socket.
I have 4 bayonet CFL's.

THANKS PEOPLE!

[Roughrider]

Any HPS bulb will require a special type of base/fixture and power regulator. The power reghulator for HPS (and MH) lights is usually called the ballast. These types of lights must have very constant energy flow to their bulbs. A sudden change in energy will cause the bulb to short out and, possible, break. So to use an HPS bulb, you must use a HPS ballast and fixture. You'll need to go to specialty light store for this sort of thing, or order it off the internet (ebay.com.au should have some). You should be able to find a 400w setup (bulb/ballast/fixture/reflector) for around AU $175-200.

As for the bayonet CFLs...sorry, I don't know how you'd get multiple bayonet fixtures. You could try to find the equivalent of the outlet/bulb converters sold in other countries. Just go to a hardware store and ask about an item that has a plug on one end and a bayonet socket on the other. If you've got four of those, it shouldn't be too hard to rig some sort of lights.

[tomm01]

Thanks Roughrider. I should be able to afford that price. If not, summer will be round soon anyway.

As for the CFL's, I just bought some really cheap lamps from K-Mart, smashed the outside and used the cord and ballast/fixture whatever. I wired two (one on each end) of an old fish tank cover. Then I just have one good lamp that I can't smash with a home-made reflector. These three bulbs equal 4 650 lumens. For one plant. I'm working on getting another cheap lamp to smash lol. I will then put that into the fish tank cover also and this should suffice for a while right? Once I have more than a square foot to cover I might purchase four more bulbs and lamps to put around the sides and have four on top. Think this would do the trick?

[Roughrider]

That sounds okay. Remember you need less light during vegginm, because the plants are smaller. One 23w bulb will pop a seedling and get you through a couple of weeks of vegging. So if you've got 3 or 4 CFLs, that's actually enough to get 3-4 plants going for a few weeks. You can go smash more cheap lamps after that. :thumbsup:

Actually, look into getting a 10 1/2" clamp light with a reflector at Wal-Mart. They're around $10 American. I bet one of those and a Y-socket adaptor would be less than AU $20. Maybe even cheaper than cheap lamp--and you get a reflector too!

[tomm01]

I have searched everywhere and for the life of me I can't find any Y-socket adapters! I seriously just don't think they make them in Aus :( :(

Thanx for the info though roughrider and I'll look into getting the 10 1/2" clamp light with reflector! :jointsmile:

[sarah louise]

Those adaptors aren't available here, damn shame they'd make things easier for us electrically challenged.

Bunnings do have large desk lamps for about $20 that will take up to 100 W incandescent and is fluoro compatible. Also have a look for nelson superior bulbs, 48W in bunnings for $26. Runs great in the oversized desk lamp, perfect for getting growth happening with the current short day length.

[Opie Yutts]

I have searched everywhere and for the life of me I can't find any Y-socket adapters! I seriously just don't think they make them in Aus :( :(


If you can't find them online, just give me $5 for gas (13mpg) and money for supplies, and I'll send you some. I'm not sure though but I think you might need an adapter for the adapter. Aren't you guys a different socket?

[tomm01]

Bunnings do have large desk lamps for about $20 that will take up to 100 W incandescent and is fluoro compatible. Also have a look for nelson superior bulbs, 48W in bunnings for $26. Runs great in the oversized desk lamp, perfect for getting growth happening with the current short day length.

Do you know how many lumens those put out? I've looked at them but couldn't find it anywhere on the box. Din't know whether it was worth it....


If you can't find them online, just give me $5 for gas (13mpg) and money for supplies, and I'll send you some. I'm not sure though but I think you might need an adapter for the adapter. Aren't you guys a different socket?

Yeah we use BC (?) and I think Americans use ES. Although we do have ES here as well, most sockets are BC so I just bought the BC globes too.

I was wondering also, how much lumens do those circular fluorescents give out? Coz they would be perfect for growing. Could get perfectly even light to the whole canopy with a few of em.

[sarah louise]

Do you know how many lumens those put out? I've looked at them but couldn't find it anywhere on the box. Din't know whether it was worth it....


Yeah it's not on the box, I emailed the company and was quoted 69 Lm/W. They take a few hours to burn in, so if you do buy some, don't worry if they don't look that bright when you first turn them on. The brightness will improve in the first couple of days use.



I was wondering also, how much lumens do those circular fluorescents give out? Coz they would be perfect for growing. Could get perfectly even light to the whole canopy with a few of em.

no idea at all.

sara lou :hippy:

[tomm01]

thanx sarah :jointsmile:
Oh and opie thanx for the offer but i'll pass, just found out i could use fan lights coz they have four in a circle type thing.:thumbsup:

[thecavebears79]

as i have bagweed growing, but did it very sketch.

so i'm going to begin a new harvest i suppose.
i'm am going to use rubbermaids. i have been reading a grip of info
but still do not understand lighting.... when to use what colored CFLs and can you stick CFLs in regular house hold lamps? and wtf is a ballast... i'm guessing you need it for the CFLs, and if there are built in ballast already on the CFLs

[hudson88]

I believe CFL's are self ballasted, anyhow they just plug straight into a regular socket, you don't need anything else. You need a ballast for a HID (both MH and HPS), ballasts are matched to the bulb that will be used with it, so you can't use a 400w bulb with a 250w ballast etc.

When looking for CFL's you can find them in 2 basic colours, white, spectrum around 6500k (normailly marked daylight on the box) which give out a bright white light, these are best for veg. The others are more yellow in colour, spectrum around 3000k and will be will be called something like warm white, this is similar to the evening sun and are more suited to flowering.

[McToker]

It seems that just about every store I checked carries GE CFL bulbs but most of their packaging does not list the color temperature. I thought this link to GE's site might help others. It helped me.

The only packages I found that showed the color temp. was the Daylight bulbs.

http://genet.gelighting.com/LightProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=RESULTPAGE&CHANNEL=Consumer&FILTER=FT0001:Energy%20Smart%E2%84%A2^FT0025:Gener al%20Purpose&CATEGORY=Lamps

[Gheizen64]

If i can spend 2 word on this things.

Lumens stats are inerently flawed.
For example, Deep Red Light has little to no lumens output (deep red lamp do no use lumens measurements, but watts, look on ledengin for example), however, plants use this light a lot. A better misurement of plants requirements for light should be LIGHT POWER, in W. On this (http://www.ledtronics.com/pages/Utilizing_LEDs/LED_Wattage.htm) site, you can see how lumens are not directly proportional to light power, and how they are inverselly proportionally to the distance to the peak wavelenght... (i know it's not this simple, i'm a physician, this will do).
What i'm trying to say is, measuring plants requirements in Lumens is pretty shitty, cause plants see light in a very differently way from us humans.
Lights Watts would be a much better approximation. This is the reason why LED, using light focused on certain wavelenght, can reproduce pretty well sunlight with a LOT less lumens output. I'm extimating a plant would need only one half or less of equivalent lumens in red and blue light.
I can do more exact calculation on the quantity of Watts given by a 50000 lumens per square foot using absorption graphics and the specter of the HPS lamps used. How i said, looking at the graphs, i suspect, using the right specter (Procyon 100W use a wrong specter on the red light, that has a very low absorption rate), that led Watts requirements are a lot lower, even if the initial $$$ investment are higher :D

[Opie Yutts]

like this:

[Gheizen64]

I've already got that chart... solar light power conversion i pretty simple (almost linear), it is about 60000 lux ~ 100W/m^2 of light power (so 600 lux ~1 W/m^2 with this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Solar_Spectrum.png)curve), HPS lamps have a pretty different light curve... using clorophyll absorption i'll do some brainstorming on the matter.

By the way, high efficiency led have a rate of 80% light conversion, some even striking the 93% rate, that means, to have a light equivalent to the sun, with a full red-to-blue spectra, will use 120-130 W of white LED. Equivalent to 60000 Lux (60000 Lumens /square metres, about 7000 lumens /sq foot). Too bad they are mostly super advanced leds, commercial ones will have much lower efficiency.

[Gheizen64]

Please cancel my old post, it's full of error.

Stupid site that contradict one another ><, i'll search some affidable source.

Now i've read on wiki that 93 lumens of sunlight ~ 1 W, but that's shit, because
light irradiate 100W/m^2, and 100*93 = 9300 lumens /square meters (actual sunlight irradiance is between 40k and 100k lumens/square meters) ><

It's madness.

[Gheizen64]

I'm sorry for flooding, but editing can be done only while 10 minutes... wtf?

Anyway, i wanted to say that the Cree XR-E lamp have an efficiency of light conversion from 25% to 40%... (400 W of lamps to obtain sunlight on a 1m^2, pretty shitty)

[ijustloveweed]

If i have one 26 wat CFL and the number is like 2700k or sumthin, that means its better for flowering right? because ive been noticing some slow growth in my seedling and was wondering if this was the problem.

[Kylock]

where can i get hps lights? wal-mart?

[deacantgetme]

to the aussies here im led to belive that cfl is the lights that everyone has to have now cause they are banning incandesant globes.
I may be wrong but its what i was told.

[DasPachy]

So let me get this straight - using CFLs only, while vegging with my CFLs I should use a 6500K spectrum? And for flowering, I should switch to 2700K CFLs?
How powerful can I get CFLs at these spectrums without breaking the bank?

[leadmagnet]

Please excuse me for asking a question that might have been already asked and answered but how do the new CFL's that screw into a standard socket differ light spectrum-wise from the older FL's with the built in ballasts that we all came to cherish and love in cabinet operations in days gone by? We used to do amazing things with small grows in small spaces with the old FL's and I'm wondering if the new CFL's are an improvement.

[leadmagnet]

Ok so dw about my last question, I went to Bunnings and tried to get a 400watt hps coz it was only $30 then I asked this guy what I would use to plug it in to and he said "I dunno" then asked this other lady working there and she said "what're you using it for" and the guy goes "growing his marijuana" and i just fake laughed and said "nah im using it for plants though". F*$^ my blood was boiling he was one of those typical 'stoners are lowlifes' people.


That's a riot. I feel your pain. I think one time or another we've all been there. Just wait until you go to the hardware store to pick up gear to do root bark extractions!!! If you're not careful they'll start treating ya like a meth cook and call the cops!

Lead

[Roughrider]

Without going into gross detail, the primary wave spectrum for blue light growth is around 435 to 465 nm, and around 660-680 for red light growth. The luminous efficiency and lumen/watt conversion rates are similar for both. So lumens are NOT are perfect indicator of light efficiency overall. They are, however, pretty good for the wavelengths used in plant growth. All sorts of other formulas can be used to compute different sorts of things related to light. They're complicated formulas. They aren't necessarily better. For most people doing small to medium grows--and I am talking about people using 400W or lower HID lights and/or LCD lights--it can be a tremendous pain to work out information that may or may not be helpful.

I have great respect for people who can work out formulas for luminous flux and PAR watt variations and things like that. If the information is available on the box for normal growers and there's a simple formula to figure out the efficiency...hey, I'm all for it. But it's my experience that this sort of information is not readily available, is not necessarily provably (or measurably) better, and is often difficult to compute for grow areas. Lumens, although imperfect, have the following things going for them

1) Usually listed for bulbs
2) Proven effectiveness
3) Easy to use formula

On these boards, I think people look for those three factors.

[oSecretGardeno]

So let me get this straight - using CFLs only, while vegging with my CFLs I should use a 6500K spectrum? And for flowering, I should switch to 2700K CFLs?
How powerful can I get CFLs at these spectrums without breaking the bank?

From what I understand, that is correct. That is what I am using right now (6500K) for vegging. I just got my 2700K CFLs for the start of flowering. As for prices, I am from the US and I got 105W 6500K for $19.95 each. It claims they put out 6720 lumens each which is great for small grows (that puts my grow at about 4900 lumens/sqft). As for the 2700K CFLs, I couldn't find them in the same high wattage, so I got four (4) 55W 2700K and two splitters to give me a good amount of lumens and coverage. Those cost me $13.95 each.

So look around and you might find them. I order all my shit online with my girlfriends card and send it to her place, so I don't worry about that. As for finding those wattages in stores for that price ... goodluck.

[darkdestruction]

why are my cfls giving out so much heat? i thought flouresents were almost heatless like ive read on probally 40 different sights.

[URfinest60oz]

is it effcient for the plant to use a 600 watt hps light from start to finish for 4 plants in a pretty spacious area?

[Roughrider]

Unless you're planning on truly large plants, 600w isn't just enough...it's overkill. A small plant takes up 1 to 1.2 sq. ft. A medium plant takes up 1.2 to 1.4 sq. ft. In other words, 6 sq. ft.--an area of about 30" x 30"--will grow you four good sized plants. We're talking plants about 30-36" in height, the kind you get if you start flowering at around 12" to 15". A 250w will actually handle that pretty well, although most people go for a 400w.

If you flowered longer--say 6 or 7 weeks--you might get plants that are over 4" tall. Say you gave each plant almost two feet to grow in; 22"x22" for each plant. That's around 13 sq. ft. You'd definitely want a 400w for that. But here's the deal. At that height, you start to lose light penetration, even from an HPS...even from a 600w HPS. If you've got the overall space and the ventilation, a 600w will do a great job on four really big plants. But if there's any issues with size or heat or ventilation, you might want to scale back. Like I said, even a 250w will take care of four medium sized plants.

And that's for flower. Big lights are kind of a shock for small plants just starting out. You're better off starting under CFLs for a couple of weeks, then switching over to an HID light. I have one other thing that I consider important. When you switch to the HID light, keep the light a good 6-8 inches higher than you need to have it for the first day or two. Lower over the next couple of days after that so the plant gets used to the increased light.

[URfinest60oz]

OK THANX :thumbsup: i dont kno the exact measurements of the space, but am sure it will accomodate 4 big plants in height but width is pretty restricted but shud accomodate for a bushy plant, ventilation is amazing the room has got its own ventilation, thts why i choose the space! they seem to be doing fine just two plants are growin more rapid than the other two.

also when you are giving me measurements are u tlkin in inches or ft? jus a bit confused on tht part.

wb :smokin:

[ForgetClassC]

does anyone here know if a mercury vapor light/ballast will start a MH bulb?

[TheGatorViking]

Very good information brotha! I apperciate the effort and time you put into this. Its gonna change how I grow my plant. Thanks!:rastasmoke:

[TheGatorViking]

Can I do one 600 watt HPS for 1-2 plants? Is that enough? How fast do they burn out?

[syde00]

Can I do one 600 watt HPS for 1-2 plants? Is that enough? How fast do they burn out?

you should probably start your own thread to ask questions... but to answer your question, 600w HPS is far far far more than enough for 1 or 2 plants.

It really depends on the sq. footage of the space your grow is occupying though - meaning if you keep the plants smaller, you can grow alot more than if you want to grow them to be 4' or more.

if you read the first post of this thread, then you should know that ideal is 5000+ lumens per sq. foot

a 150w HPS light puts out ~14000 lumens, which means a grow space of 3 sq. ft (say 1.75'x1.75') that would put you at just a tad under 5000 lumens per sq. foot. (like 4600ish).

a 250w HPS will kick out ~28000 lumens, which basically means you can double sq. footage compared to a 150w HPS

a 400w HPS kicks out ~50000 lumens which again means you can almost double your space compared to a 250w. with a 400w you could do about 3.33x3' space.

but going by the number of plants is just not good, as there are so many grow-style factors that will come into play with regards to how many plants you can fit into any given space.

[ultimatefreak48]

Ok... Im looking into getting an HPS light, 150 watts possibly, but do I absolutely need a ballast... Ive been looking around to see if i can find out if i do or not and I cannot find a clear answer. Can I just plug it into a regular lighting fixture?

[Italiano715]

Ok... Im looking into getting an HPS light, 150 watts possibly, but do I absolutely need a ballast... Ive been looking around to see if i can find out if i do or not and I cannot find a clear answer. Can I just plug it into a regular lighting fixture?

Negative ghost rider.......

[ultimatefreak48]

Negative to being able to plug it into a regular socket or needing a ballast?

[Roughrider]

Ok... Im looking into getting an HPS light, 150 watts possibly, but do I absolutely need a ballast... Ive been looking around to see if i can find out if i do or not and I cannot find a clear answer. Can I just plug it into a regular lighting fixture?

Yeah, you need a ballast. HID lights ("HID" stands for "High Intensity Discharge"...both MH and HPS are HID lights) have to have a very regular energy current flowing into them. The current that flows through a typical outlet fluctuates too much, and that fluctuation will cause the lights to fail.

I know people that really like to DIY everything built their own ballasts, but I think it's kind of kooky for 150w and 250w lights. You can get a full 150w light system with a bulb for about $80-90 shipped...that's not much more than cost of the parts and bulb. A 250w switchable ballast is $150.

If you're thinking of getting a 150w HPS, keep in mind that a dual clamp light CFL setup with 180-190w will set you back less money, is more flexible (you can get daylight CFLs for vegging), has less problems with heat and therefore ventilation, and will put out nearly the same amount of lumens.

[Deejay2163]

Is a 400 watt HPS enough for a 2.5 ft x 4.5 ft room? Would I be better off with a 600 watt HPS instead? Thanks in advance for your reply

[Roughrider]

Short answer--yes. You've got a little over 11 square feet of space, and a 400w HPS puts out 50,000 or so lumens. So you're around 4500 lumens/sq. ft. that's enough.

You may have a problem with the shape of the room, though...if your reflector is getting light out evenly (in equidistant areas, like a circle), the outer parts of your grow area won't see as much light. You'll probably want to rotate your plants frequently, or invest in a light mover. Or, if you want, go for the 600w. More energy and more heat, of course...but more light too.

[1zulu1]

Great thread RR.

Ive been looking at lighting for my 1st grow and was going to go with a 250w cfl, thinking it would be cheaper to run. But after reading your 1st post it seems a 250w HPS would actually be cheaper to run plus the added benifit of more lumens. Only downside is the possible heat with the HPS

[koloradokid]

He definitely helped me more than bomb diggity.

[koloradokid]

roughrider, thank you.

[kwaaluudekid]

I was given a bunch of track lighting that uses CMH (ceramic metal halide) bulbs. the casing for the fixture itself is a spotlight. right now I have a 2 foot x 2 foot area with 4 of these spotlights CMH bulbs on them and they're ready to go into flowering stage at 28" high. I was wondering if this is a decent setup and should I add more light? (I have probably 20 more fixtures and bulbs). Here is some info I found out about the bulb:

GE ConstantColor CMH
CMH20/TC/UVC/U/830/G8.5 (info from box)
3000 kelvin color temp
1650 lumens
LPW efficiency:80-105
color rendering:80-93
color temp:3000-4200

website with info regarding bulbs: http://www.gelightingsolutions.eu/downloads/CMH-Dimmable.pdf (go to page 28 for info regarding this bulb. first one in list)


Was also thinking of adding a light or 2 to the sides (these are spotlights after all) to get all-around light, but so far it seems to be going good with just the 4 lights on top. Am hoping to start flowering in a week or two, so my questions are:

1. is this a good bulb for growing? veg? flower?
2. how many lights per sq. ft? (in case grow area increases)


right now only using bagseed, but will have some cuttings soon, so I want my getup as good as can get for the cuttings. Thanks for your help in advance

[Roughrider]

First--28" high and you're still in veg? Wow...that's going to be a serious plant. :)

With a plant that size you will definitely, 100% need more light, especially below the canopy. Even though the bulbs you list (which are interesting, btw) are considered spotlights, I just don't see you getting heavy canopy penetration from a 20w bulb.

I also wonder if you're going to outgrow that area. You're going to get some stretch and bushing out. A 28" plant should grow at least 1.5 times in height in flower...it will probably double in height or more, depending on the strain. A 4' plus plant is probably going to need more than a 24" x 24" area. And I stick with the basic lumen information...if you end up using 28" x 28" (which I think you'll need for a plant that size), that's around five and half square feet. That would mean at least 10 bulbs like that; 15-16 would be a whole lot better. For cuttings, if you plan on staying in the 24" x 24" area...that's four square feet. At least 7 or 8 lights; 10-12 would be best. I'd think about having 65-75% of the lights on top, and 25-35% below the canopy as supplemental light.

I've used CMH bulbs. 3000k is pretty normal for those types of lights. IMO, they're as good as MH for veg, but not quite as good as HPS for flowering (close, though..more than good enough). They run cool, which is nice--and you'll want to get the lights close, since they're only 20w each. You'll need plenty of lights though, as I said, so be sure and check temps and have some air circulation. Good luck!

[kwaaluudekid]

Thanks for the info, it is MUCH appreciated. I was going to start the flowering stage this weekend (they'll be 6 weeks old then). space really isn't an issue yet, they're in the garage and I use it as an office, so I'm the only one ever goes in there. right now they're just tall and lanky, but hopefully they'll bush out. I'll try to get some pics up if I can. I'm guessing these lights prolly wouldn't be too good for a trunk setup? the trunk is 13x17x31. I'm also growing in soil for now, but want to try DWC for the next grow. Any suggestions? again...thanks for your help

(it said I uploaded pics...but they're a month old when plants were only 2 weeks old...will show more pics in "my grow")

[kwaaluudekid]

here's some pics of my cmh grow. the 1st one shows height. 2nd shows whole plant. 3rd shows top of one. 4th show popcorn bud...kinda spindly, but with any luck will bush out nicely

[calbunn]

have you done a grow with induction grow lights? theres some induction grow video on you tube if you've not see them and the 166.5 lumens per watt is higher then anything short of plasma without the heat.

[StoneMeadow]

I have a few interesting data points for cfl and fl bulb fans. After reading some cfl grow threads where the plants suffered from burning if the bulb is too close to the plant, I decided to measure some bulb temps directly. Using a good quality surface pyrometer on stabilized bulbs (on for about an hour), I get 84 degrees F for a 34w 4100k 48" T12, and 104 F for a 14w "soft white" cfl. I guess I now understand why a T12 can be dropped right down into physical contact with the tops of the plant without causing burn, and why any cfl must be kept several inches from the nearest leaves.

[gypski]

I have a few interesting data points for cfl and fl bulb fans. After reading some cfl grow threads where the plants suffered from burning if the bulb is too close to the plant, I decided to measure some bulb temps directly. Using a good quality surface pyrometer on stabilized bulbs (on for about an hour), I get 84 degrees F for a 34w 4100k 48" T12, and 104 F for a 14w "soft white" cfl. I guess I now understand why a T12 can be dropped right down into physical contact with the tops of the plant without causing burn, and why any cfl must be kept several inches from the nearest leaves.

Then you'd want your T5 a distance that at the canopy was in the mid 70 degree range. Distance does matter!!!!! :pimp:

[jon420]

Dsitance and amount of light is the biggest step for growing with CFL's and floro's. I know that there are huge debates out there about using CFL's & floro's for the whole grow. Most people do great when it comes to vegging but when it comes to flowering time, a lot of people are dissapointed. Flowering with cfl's & floro's is not much different than flowering with HPS. Only difference is, the HPS penetrates further from the light source which means you don't need much side lighting, if any. A lot of people grow from above the plants only and that is where the CFL & floro growers make mistakes. CFL & floro grows should penetrate the plant from all sides if possible and as close as possible (CFL's do burn but haven't seen a floro burn yet). I have seen CFL & floro grows turn out just as good as HPS grows, if not better and of course less lumens and watts. It all depends on distance and amount.

I have seen 467watts (34,XXX Lumens) of CFL's & floros combined to make the goodies and amounts you see in magazines, no lie, it can be done!!!

[headshake]

(CFL's do burn but haven't seen a floro burn yet).

my t-5s have burnt leaves, but only when leaves are touching them directly for prolonged periods of time.


-shake

[jon420]

my t-5s have burnt leaves, but only when leaves are touching them directly for prolonged periods of time.


-shake

Sorry, I should've specified. I have not seen a T12 burn yet, my bad. I have heard of the T5's burning and even the T8's but never a T12.


CFL & Floro Grow Log Coming Soon!!!

[brynpav]

Dsitance and amount of light is the biggest step for growing with CFL's and floro's. I know that there are huge debates out there about using CFL's & floro's for the whole grow. Most people do great when it comes to vegging but when it comes to flowering time, a lot of people are dissapointed. Flowering with cfl's & floro's is not much different than flowering with HPS. Only difference is, the HPS penetrates further from the light source which means you don't need much side lighting, if any. A lot of people grow from above the plants only and that is where the CFL & floro growers make mistakes. CFL & floro grows should penetrate the plant from all sides if possible and as close as possible (CFL's do burn but haven't seen a floro burn yet). I have seen CFL & floro grows turn out just as good as HPS grows, if not better and of course less lumens and watts. It all depends on distance and amount.

I have seen 467watts (34,XXX Lumens) of CFL's & floros combined to make the goodies and amounts you see in magazines, no lie, it can be done!!!

Your post got me thinking about surface lamp temperatures since I've been using inda-gro 400 watt induction fluorescent lamps for the entire grow and I let the plants grow within 12" of the fixture @ week 12 with yields consistent in the 300 g/m range. I'm on my fourth grow now.

Electrode-less induction is really fluorescent lamp on steroids emitting 166.5 VL/W, 95% PAR usable UV/IR spectra, which like an HPS gets excellent canopy penetration but still runs much cooler compared to HPS operating temps.

With lamp surface temps having much to do with fixture design, room size and ventilation I can speak only to my particular room/lamp combination. And while I don't own a pyrometer for a lamp surface temp I don't let my plants actually touch the lamp anyway. The measurements I can give though are from readings I took with an infrared thermometer.

I have a 90 cfm fan providing a reasonably well ventilated 10 x 10 x 8 (800 CF) grow room with an maintained ambient temperature of 78 degrees F, I measure 80 degrees F @ the nearest edge of the reflector surface approximately 1" away from the lamp itself.

I was told by inda-gro was that these lamps actually function best, in terms of MAX lumen/watt output is that the room be ventilated to not directly remove the surface temperature of the lamp to where it falls below 70 degrees F.

[Indagrojeff]

Although I'm still kind of a new poster, I keep seeing a lot of the same comments--many of which are answered an Dr. Khronik's excellent El Cheapo Guide to Lighting (http://http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-lighting/121311-el-cheapo-guide-lighting.html). But there are a few things I'd like to add in regard to watts, lumens, cfl, hps, and efficiency and how much light you need. Maybe this should be stickied?

Watts have nothing to do with light or growth. Watts measure how much power a light fixture uses to produce light. You can tell how efficient a light bulb is by looking at watts. A 23 watt CFL produces as much light as a 100 watt incandescent...even though the incandescent has more watts, it's useless. See what I mean?

What you care about is light...more specifically, light energy. That's what plants use during photosynthesis/growth. Light is measured in lumens. In my experience and reading, lumen amounts per sq. ft./sq. m. look like this

2000 lumens sq. ft./21500 lumens sq. m. = Absolute minimum for growth. You won't get much from this, especially after the plant has grown a bit. Not really enough to flower well.

3000 lumens sq. ft./32250 lumens sq. m. = Pretty Good growth. Enough light for the entire light cycle, although your yields may be lower.
4000 lumens sq. ft./43000 lumens sq. m. = Very good growth. Once you pass around 3500, growth rate and ability goes up fast.

Over 5000 lumens sq. ft./53750 lumens sq. m. = Optimal growth. Dense growth in all stages.

Keep in mind that using reflectors, using mylar or having flat white walls, and keeping your lights close to your plants keep you from wasting lumens. It's not just about having light, it's about getting the light to your plants. IMO, people ofter overbuy lights. This creates more light, but the light isn't always hitting the plants. And that creates more heat and ventilation issues, which causes stress problems.

That's why it's still impossible to tell anything about growth or yield based on just lumens. A guy that has an HPS that is too far away from plants that have no walls near them and no ventilation may get poorer results than a grower with CFLs that uses reflectors and has a couple of lights under the canopy in a well-ventilated spot.

HPS lights are often said to generate more heat than CFLs. That's not really true...it's just that they are more efficient at producing light, and there's a smaller surface area on the bulb itself for the resulting heat to dissipate. That means more ventilation. But the higher amount of lumens per watt means you use less power and get greater light penetration through your canopy. Still, I'm a believer that well used CFL's can give you great grows with less ventilation and heat issues. If you're in a small to very small area (less than 4 sq. ft./.25 sq. m.), I'd consider the advantages of CFLs in that way.

But HPS is more efficient. A typical 250 watt HPS bulb/unit will produce about 27,000 lumens. I've seen people use a 250w in a 3' x 3' room and get good results. That's 9 sq. ft. which = 3000 lumens a sq. ft. (Really, a 250w HPS is better in a smaller area.) to give you an idea of the difference in efficiency of CFL vs. HPS, think of this.

23w CFL = 1600 lumens = 69.6 lumens/watt
30w CFL = 2000 lumens = 66.7 lumens/watt
40w CFL = 2600 lumens = 66.3 lumens/watt

compared to

150w HPS = 14000 lumens = 93.3 lumens/watt
250w HPS = 28000 lumens = 112 lumens/watt
400w HPS = 50000 lumens = 125 lumens/watt
600w HPS = 90000 lumens = 150 lumens/watt

So you can see that HPS is more efficient than CFL...and as you get into bigger HPS bulbs, it becomes a lot more efficient. There's also fewer hassles with multiple cords and saved money on your energy bill. If you've got a big area and/or you can deal with the heat and ventilation, HPS is the way to go in flowering. Still, I'm a believer in small HPS lights and combo HPS/CFL grows...if you've got a 2' x 2' room, you can use a 150w HPS and 4 23w CFLs from Wal-Mart and get a terrific grow with very few heat issues.

Hope this helps some people. And, yes, I wrote it all. :)

This is my very first post on a forum, anywhere! And your having written it all has motivated me to do so. Please forgive me if I don't follow all of the protocols but I am a quick study.

The reason I set up with this board is because one of our customers just emailed this thread to me and I thought I'd throw in with my observations as it relates to an important facet of our overall thermal management designs on the drivers which power our induction grow lamp products.

The post you've made is well written and compares two conventional grow lamp types. However I believe there are some inaccuracies in that the values posted were for initial HPS lumens rather than mean lumens which would be a better value to use as it better reflects the output over the lamp life. I've attached a link to the chart values we like to use. In respect to the efficiency getting better as the lamp gets larger, this is true up to 600 Watts, but then the efficiency decreases as you go to 750 watts and 1000 watts. Both Metal Halide and Induction lamps continue to get more efficient as they bet bigger and do not show this backward bending affect on efficiency values as HPS does.

Inda-GRO (http://inda-gro.com/lighting-comparison.html)

My 30 year background is that of an Electrical Engineer with experience in nuclear and product development design engineering. Over the last year I've been working on the Inda-Gro design team and find this exciting, because so much of it stems from work that was brought to the industry by one of the most inspirational inventors of all time and that is Tesla himself.

Of course I'd like to make more people aware of the advantages of utilizing induction grow light technology I'm not here to promote Inda-Gro products as the sole solution for your particular needs since there are, from what I'm learning, many reasons that would influence the lamp choice that a grower may decide to use.

While not being a botanist by training or trade I was excited to get involved with the electrodeless induction light technology for the grower since it relies on relatively simple but delivers a high lumen/ low wattage solution for those species that demand not only proper spectrums but 1,500-1,800 micromoles saturation at the receptors to best simulate the natures energy and wavelengths.

Please feel free to call me or call me at the office should you wish to discuss anything that warrants our followup.

Thank you for your time, Jeff

[jon420]

I have a few interesting data points for cfl and fl bulb fans. After reading some cfl grow threads where the plants suffered from burning if the bulb is too close to the plant, I decided to measure some bulb temps directly. Using a good quality surface pyrometer on stabilized bulbs (on for about an hour), I get 84 degrees F for a 34w 4100k 48" T12, and 104 F for a 14w "soft white" cfl. I guess I now understand why a T12 can be dropped right down into physical contact with the tops of the plant without causing burn, and why any cfl must be kept several inches from the nearest leaves.

The T12 3000K burns too. It took all day but it did burn. Juat wanted to throow that out there. Never had a T12 6500K burn though. Great test too!!!

[mickey9987]

Heres my grow any tips
YouTube - Mini Update.1.8.2011 The Seeds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBIP6yFHXbs)

[bushmuncher]

Is it ok to hve a reptile light using a sun Glo 150w bulb It is a Neodymium spot lamp and I have two other lispot kigts reflecting off foil also.










Who cares where I got the info. the fact is that I have done lots of homework when it comes to lighting like you. Most peeps just look at lumens "hey isn't this light bright, man I have to ware sun glasses!" and off they go to the races. We all know, well maybe not, that like you said in your first post (Still, I'm a believer in small HPS lights and combo HPS/CFL grows), dual spectrum works best for the entire grow. If you can't find out the par watts, call any manufacturer and they will tell you after a few forwards-it's not hard, just takes some effort, and not just searching these boards where 90 percent of the answers are: mh for veg, hps for flower-and get the most lumens-not!. I use to grow mh during veg and hps during flower. I use to go by lumens only but could not understand why my grows did not get any better/bigger when I went with the fancy/overpriced high lumen bulbs. Hmmmmm, I wonder why.
Anyhoo, yes I'm a firm believer of the KISS method, and there are plenty of great grows where people just look at lumens. Hell, my ave. yield under a 1000 watt bulb was around 34 oz's, and lumens was all I looked at. First time I went dual (600,400), same strain from clone-38 oz's and the plants were much healthier.
Here's a pretty good site-kind of old: Grow Marijuana FAQ, Cannabis cultivation - marijuana growing tips & photos (http://www.drugs-forum.com/growfaq/945.htm)
And the best damn 400 watt bulb on the mrkt. Phlips MasterColor Ceramic Metal Halide ~ CMH ~ HPS-Retro White (http://advancedtechlighting.com/cdmed18.htm)
Peace and good luck to all.

[flyinhi66]

hey i just started 5 seedlings,they've been unger a 18watt under cabinet flu light 4 10days, ? how long should I wait to put them under a 250w mh, also would it be benefical to add a 230 watt hps conversion lamp on during veg state? been growing outdoors 4 yrs, my 1st time indoors,i purchased a 3x3x6 grow hut & have like 10 250mh & 15 175 watters. :stoned:

[massbud]

what you think of my setup do you think its good or do you think it needs more light?273119273120

[jimbobalong]

roughrider- only new to growing ventilation is ok its just the lights that have got me. I have a 250w clf for veging and a 600w hps for flowering is the 600w to much for a 2x2 grow room.how far away should i keep the cfl from the top of seedlings??

[mak14317]

very goos posts to read..........

[Jungl3Jim]

A very good post when it comes to comparing CFL to HID in terms of Lumens and such but, plants "see" light differently than human beings do. As a result, lumens, lux or foot-candles should not be used to measure light for plant growth since they are measures used for human visibility. More correct measures for plants are PAR watts, PPF PAR and YPF PAR, although each in itself does not tell the whole story. In addition to quantity of light, considerations of quality are important, since plants use energy in different parts of the spectrum for critical processes.
Plants are sensitive to a similar portion of the spectrum as is the human eye. This portion of the light spectrum is referred to as photo synthetically active radiation or PAR, namely about 400 to 700 nanometers in wavelength. Nevertheless, plant response within this region is very different from that of humans.
The human eye has a peak sensitivity in the yellow-green region, around 550 nanometers. This is the "optic yellow" color used for highly visible signs and objects. Plants, on the other hand, respond more effectively to red light and to blue light, the peak being in the red region at around 630 nanometers.
Red light provides the most efficient food for plants. However, a plant illuminated only with red or orange light will fail to develop sufficient bulk. Leafy growth (vegetative growth) and bulk also require blue light. Many other complex processes are triggered by light required from different regions of the spectrum. The correct portion of the spectrum varies from species to species. However, the quantity of light needed for plant growth and health can be measured, assuming that all portions of the spectrum are adequately covered. Light for plants cannot, however, be measured with the same standards used to measure light for humans.
First, how do we measure light quantity for humans? The obvious way is based on how bright the source appears and how "well" the eye sees under the light. Since the human eye is particularly sensitive to yellow light, more weight is given to the yellow region of the spectrum and the contributions from blue and red light are largely discounted. This is the basis for rating the total amount of light emitted by a source in lumens.
The light emitted from the source is then distributed over the area to be illuminated. The illumination is measured in "lux", a measurement of how many lumens falls on each square meter of surface. An illumination of 1000 lux implies that 1000 lumens are falling on each square meter of surface. Similarly, "foot-candles" is the term for the measure of how many lumens are falling on each square foot of surface.
Clearly, both lumens and lux (or foot-candles) refer specifically to human vision and not to the way plants see light.
How then should the rating for plant lighting be accomplished? There are two basic approaches to develop this rating: measuring energy or counting photons.
PAR Watts for Plants
Watts is an objective measure of energy being used or emitted by a lamp each second. Energy itself is measured in joules, and 1 joule per second is called a watt. A 100 watt incandescent bulb uses up 100 joules of electrical energy every second. How much light energy is it generating? About 6 joules per second or 6 watts, but the efficiency of the lamp is only 6%, a rather dismal number. The rest of the energy is dissipated mainly as heat. Modern discharge lamps like high pressure sodium (HPS) and metal halide convert (typically) 30% to 40% of the electrical energy into light. They are significantly more efficient than incandescent bulbs.
Since plants use energy between 400 and 700 nanometers and light in this region is called Photo synthetically Active Radiation or PAR, we could measure the total amount of energy emitted per second in this region and call it PAR watts. This is an objective measure in contrast to lumens which is a subjective measure since it is based on the response of the subjects (humans). A PAR watt directly indicates how much light energy is available for plants to use in photosynthesis.
The output of a 400 watt incandescent bulb is about 25 watts of light, a 400 watt metal halide bulb emits about 140 watts of light. If PAR is considered to correspond more or less to the visible region, then a 400 watt metal halide lamp provides about 140 watts of PAR. A 400 watt HPS lamps has less PAR, typically 120 to 128 watts, but because the light is yellow it is rated at higher lumens (for the human eye).
Since plant response does "spill out" beyond the 400 nanometer and 700 nanometer boundaries, some researchers refer to the 350 â?? 750 nanometer region as the PAR region. Using this expanded region will lead to mildly inflated PAR ratings compared to the more conservative approach in this discussion. However, the difference is small.
While HPS and incandescent lamps are fixed in their spectral output, metal halide lamps are available in a broad range of color temperatures and spectral outputs. With this in mind, the discriminating grower can choose a lamp that provides the best spectral output for his specific needs.

Hey all..
hate to drag up an old post but this has been pilfered directly from here.. albeit great info.. but still
What Are PAR Watts? - Sunmaster is proud to publish PAR Watt information (http://www.sunmastergrowlamps.com/SunmasterPARWatts.html)

[bubbels]

hey i use a son-t pia green power 600w and i dont know how old they are. so what can i do to measure my ligth power.? will a lux meter do.?

[aleph]

Although I'm still kind of a new poster, I keep seeing a lot of the same comments--many of which are answered an Dr. Khronik's excellent El Cheapo Guide to Lighting (http://http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-lighting/121311-el-cheapo-guide-lighting.html). But there are a few things I'd like to add in regard to watts, lumens, cfl, hps, and efficiency and how much light you need. Maybe this should be stickied?

Watts have nothing to do with light or growth. Watts measure how much power a light fixture uses to produce light. You can tell how efficient a light bulb is by looking at watts. A 23 watt CFL produces as much light as a 100 watt incandescent...even though the incandescent has more watts, it's useless. See what I mean?

What you care about is light...more specifically, light energy. That's what plants use during photosynthesis/growth. Light is measured in lumens. In my experience and reading, lumen amounts per sq. ft./sq. m. look like this

2000 lumens sq. ft./21500 lumens sq. m. = Absolute minimum for growth. You won't get much from this, especially after the plant has grown a bit. Not really enough to flower well.

3000 lumens sq. ft./32250 lumens sq. m. = Pretty Good growth. Enough light for the entire light cycle, although your yields may be lower.
4000 lumens sq. ft./43000 lumens sq. m. = Very good growth. Once you pass around 3500, growth rate and ability goes up fast.

Over 5000 lumens sq. ft./53750 lumens sq. m. = Optimal growth. Dense growth in all stages.

Keep in mind that using reflectors, using mylar or having flat white walls, and keeping your lights close to your plants keep you from wasting lumens. It's not just about having light, it's about getting the light to your plants. IMO, people ofter overbuy lights. This creates more light, but the light isn't always hitting the plants. And that creates more heat and ventilation issues, which causes stress problems.

That's why it's still impossible to tell anything about growth or yield based on just lumens. A guy that has an HPS that is too far away from plants that have no walls near them and no ventilation may get poorer results than a grower with CFLs that uses reflectors and has a couple of lights under the canopy in a well-ventilated spot.

HPS lights are often said to generate more heat than CFLs. That's not really true...it's just that they are more efficient at producing light, and there's a smaller surface area on the bulb itself for the resulting heat to dissipate. That means more ventilation. But the higher amount of lumens per watt means you use less power and get greater light penetration through your canopy. Still, I'm a believer that well used CFL's can give you great grows with less ventilation and heat issues. If you're in a small to very small area (less than 4 sq. ft./.25 sq. m.), I'd consider the advantages of CFLs in that way.

But HPS is more efficient. A typical 250 watt HPS bulb/unit will produce about 27,000 lumens. I've seen people use a 250w in a 3' x 3' room and get good results. That's 9 sq. ft. which = 3000 lumens a sq. ft. (Really, a 250w HPS is better in a smaller area.) to give you an idea of the difference in efficiency of CFL vs. HPS, think of this.

23w CFL = 1600 lumens = 69.6 lumens/watt
30w CFL = 2000 lumens = 66.7 lumens/watt
40w CFL = 2600 lumens = 66.3 lumens/watt

compared to

150w HPS = 14000 lumens = 93.3 lumens/watt
250w HPS = 28000 lumens = 112 lumens/watt
400w HPS = 50000 lumens = 125 lumens/watt
600w HPS = 90000 lumens = 150 lumens/watt

So you can see that HPS is more efficient than CFL...and as you get into bigger HPS bulbs, it becomes a lot more efficient. There's also fewer hassles with multiple cords and saved money on your energy bill. If you've got a big area and/or you can deal with the heat and ventilation, HPS is the way to go in flowering. Still, I'm a believer in small HPS lights and combo HPS/CFL grows...if you've got a 2' x 2' room, you can use a 150w HPS and 4 23w CFLs from Wal-Mart and get a terrific grow with very few heat issues.

Hope this helps some people. And, yes, I wrote it all. :)

&#x202a;anarpit&#39;s Channel&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/user/anarpit?feature=mhee#p/a/u/1/NmurA2JmhSM)

[n00b]

Very informative. Thank you for the info!

[thermite]

Sorry to wake up an old thread but I wanted to just ask about supplemental lighting in the flowering stage to up the number of lumens psf I'm currently going to be around the 3000 lumens psf mark using 2700k CFL's. If I was to add additional CFL's to my setup to increase the amount of light, should I just add more 2700k bulbs when flowering or is it beneficial to use 5600k bulbs as well. Which would be most effective?

[TheWickedApple]

I'm doing my very first grow-box for 1 or 2 plants. Now that I've designed the box and ventilation am thinking about lighting. I was thinking of 150w HPS light but they seem to be slightly out of my price-range. I know that CFL are much cheaper and that they make bigger than 40w bulbs. For 1-2 plants what is an optimal amount? How many fixtures and how many bulbs? To get close to a 150w HPS?

[Hotshot123]

I use 9- 40watt CFl's at the 2700 range, for Veg, and Flower. My space is 72" L X 32" W X 48" H. Everything seems to work fairly good. I get ounce or two from each plant. Do I need more light in that space? Growing 3 plants at a time.

[Shovelhandle]

I recently found 44 watt CFL lamps in Staples for under $5. That's a deal! They were $8 in Walmart.
I am using (4) T5HO 54 watt tubes for supplemental lighting during bloom for nine plants in 5 gallon pails. I have 'grow' and 'bloom' spectrum lamps. At the moment I'm using two of each. I think maybe a full spectrum has an advantage over one or the other.

[crazypimpmx]

I would say that something is not adding up as you are only getting 2 ounces per plant, scrog seem to work quite nicely for cfl setups to produce big time

[Hotshot123]

I got some 6500K for my next Veg. I hope that will make a difference when I go into flower. Maybe my plants will be bigger, so I can get bigger buds. I see on the pro vido, that he used, HPS and MH in the flowering stage. So I now will have 4-6500K and 5-2700K in my flowering cycle. I will let you know if this produce any more. After 14 days of drying, my ww x bb only weight 32 grams. This was my first try indoors. I'm working on my second now. Some Pineapple and WW X BB and some Green Love Potion. Good luck, and happy growing.

[jadentan]

Really nice post thanks for info and i would love to read comparisons between led and other conventional light bulbs.