Perceived roundaboutness in the Bible

[Hardcore Newbie]

I'm posting a reply in a new thread to keep the other one on track.


Adam was a perfect human and Gave his life away when he rebeled. How can a perfect being act in a way to make itself imperfect? Wouldn't a perfect being refrain from any action that would cause imperfection, by the nature of the word "perfect" itself?

Please reply with something about free will.


Every one of us was born from Adam and Thus Sinful.
If this is true, and sin is inherited, does this mean we are held accountable, in God's eyes, for every sin of our forefathers?


Every human death can not add up to Adams Death (a perfect human) So Jesus (another perfect Human)Was needed to come down to Die for Mankind.
Since God is all powerful, does he really "need" to do anything in a specific way? If God wanted to forgive us for an original sin, it wouldn't take another perfect person to die, it would just take him saying "I won't hold this against you anymore", and be done with it. So why the roundaboutness?


Jesus perfect life and death was an exchange for mankinds Sins. Like the Sacrafices the people of israel were commanded by Law to do, Thoses were in fact a simbol of Jesus Dieing for all mankinds sins, so once Jesus Died they no longer needed to offer up animals for there sins sence Jesus died for all mankinds perfectly.
Why would God require sacrifices in the first place?

[Coelho]

If this is true, and sin is inherited, does this mean we are held accountable, in God's eyes, for every sin of our forefathers?

Well... i dont think the sins itselves are inherited, but only the pecaminous nature. People are very (if not completly) influencied by their raising. So, if their parents are sinful, its impossible to be raised as a perfect person. Thus the passing of sins from generation to generation.


Why would God require sacrifices in the first place?

I think its not a requirement of God, but a thing caused by the human nature. For we feel that we were forgiven, we must believe that we were forgiven. But the human nature is not so good to believe that just repenting is enough for obtaining forgiveness. We humans believe that MUST be some form of punishment for our bad actions, and only after the punishment the forgivness is obtained. So, the need of sacrifices. Killing a pure and perfect animal, then burning it, under the belief that the animal contained all your sins would be enough to fulfill the human's need for punishment, and then, after making the sacrifice, the sinner would believe that he was forgiven.

[Krogith]

How can a perfect being act in a way to make itself imperfect? Wouldn't a perfect being refrain from any action that would cause imperfection, by the nature of the word "perfect" itself?

Please reply with something about free will. Sorry The Bible says We are all Give'n Free Will. You Can Choose Not to serve God.


If this is true, and sin is inherited, does this mean we are held accountable, in God's eyes, for every sin of our forefathers?
No, we are sinful and needed a perfect human to give his life for us. To have a even exchange.


Since God is all powerful, does he really "need" to do anything in a specific way? If God wanted to forgive us for an original sin, it wouldn't take another perfect person to die, it would just take him saying "I won't hold this against you anymore", and be done with it. So why the roundaboutness? If God acted aginst his own Justice He would not be A Perfect God. The question was asked and God had to prove his point, That is Can we do things our own way and not listion to God. What happends if you go aginst God?

If God Just killed everyone who disobayed him and didn't have anything suporting it would you think him a God of Justice?

All that you see and our history proves Forever that mankind Can Not Rule them self and we have to Follow God. After this Judicial Court case is Proven Perfect God will Act and Then distroy all who Go aginst his will and be justfyed in doing so.

Why would God require sacrifices in the first place?

To Speak with God you have to be Perfect, Sinful humans can not speak to god in our state we need atonement or forgiveness of our sins, to speak with or have direction from God. Befor Jesus Died for all Mankind we had to offer up a sacrifices because of our sinful state. To pray to God and so God could Write the Bible by speaking to sinful Man. After Jesus Death we No longer needed a sacrifice for our sins because Jesus Died for them.

Hebrews 4:14-16 Please read it. It is talking about how we now have Jesus who died for us to Freely approach God with Freeness of speech. So for God to be able to hear your Prayer you have to know that Jesus Died for your sins and express that.

[Krogith]

I'm posting a reply in a new thread to keep the other one on track.

How can a perfect being act in a way to make itself imperfect? Wouldn't a perfect being refrain from any action that would cause imperfection, by the nature of the word "perfect" itself?

Please reply with something about free will.


Would God be happy with a bunch of Robots Serveing him? Forced Love? He wants people who want to Love him and his ways.

Psalms 37:11,12 28,29 A New Earth

John 5 28,29 All thoses who have Died have payed for there sin in Death and will be Resurrected

[Hardcore Newbie]

Sorry The Bible says We are all Give'n Free Will. You Can Choose Not to serve God.
Correct, a perfect being has the choice, but if the being were truly perfect, they'd always choose the perfect choice. If that being makes an imperfect choice, then by definition alone they are not perfect.

Either the being was imperfect, or the being is perfect, and can only make perfect choices, some of which include sin.

They can either be perfect and make only perfect choices, or they can be imperfect and allowed to make imperfect choices. One might be perceived as perfect until a point of imperfection, but hindsight is always 20/20.




No, we are sinful and needed a perfect human to give his life for us. To have a even exchange.
Again, why is it "needed" if God is all powerful and can do anything He wanted? He could forgive everyone in any which way he wanted.

I'm just trying to understand why would the perfect being, God, choose such a round about way of forgiving people? Banish from the garden of Eden, give them arbitrary rules that don't matter for the generations after Christ, only to the ones before. This is the method a perfect being takes? I would think that perfection would include something called logic, So in order for God to be perfect, this has to be the most logical way to forgive two people for what equates to "not listening to God".

So if you were an all powerful being, and two of your creations disobeyed you, you believe that this is the most logical way to forgive two people who've disobeyed you?


If God acted aginst his own Justice He would not be A Perfect God.
The problem is that He is all powerful, He is the one who decides what is just. Why would a logical being place a rule on Itself that states "In order to forgive someone who disobeys me, I have to do [all that stuff in the Bible]"?

Again, if you were God, being all powerful, all knowledgeable, and perfect, you would choose to place this restriction upon yourself while creating your version of Justice? What purpose does it serve?


To Speak with God you have to be Perfect, Sinful humans can not speak to god in our state we need atonement or forgiveness of our sins, to speak with or have direction from God. Befor Jesus Died for all Mankind we had to offer up a sacrifices because of our sinful state. To pray to God and so God could Write the Bible by speaking to sinful Man. After Jesus Death we No longer needed a sacrifice for our sins because Jesus Died for them.
I'll just ask again why this method is the most logical and reasonable course of action. Why would a perfect being set up rules of the universe that dictate "people that sin will not be able to talk to me, unless they sacrifice animals to speak to me, well... until I send Jesus to be sacrificed, then people who believe that this happened and that Jesus is God, those people can also speak with me ".


Hebrews 4:14-16 Please read it. It is talking about how we now have Jesus who died for us to Freely approach God with Freeness of speech. So for God to be able to hear your Prayer you have to know that Jesus Died for your sins and express that.In order for me to believe in the Bible, I need to be shown why God makes, what I consider to be, such unreasonable and irrational decisions.

[Krogith]

Correct, a perfect being has the choice, but if the being were truly perfect, they'd always choose the perfect choice. If that being makes an imperfect choice, then by definition alone they are not perfect.

Either the being was imperfect, or the being is perfect, and can only make perfect choices, some of which include sin.

Forced to choose a path due to the fact that God says it's right isn't Free Choice. God wants us as Huamns to Freely Serve him.

They can either be perfect and make only perfect choices, or they can be imperfect and allowed to make imperfect choices. One might be perceived as perfect until a point of imperfection, but hindsight is always 20/20.



Again, why is it "needed" if God is all powerful and can do anything He wanted? He could forgive everyone in any which way he wanted.

God wants people useing Freewill to Want to Love him and serve him, people would not love and want to serve him if his ways were unjustfyed.

I'm just trying to understand why would the perfect being, God, choose such a round about way of forgiving people?

He loves humans so much he is willing to go through all this crap and waste all this time to prove FOREVER that his ways are right.

Banish from the garden of Eden, give them arbitrary rules that don't matter for the generations after Christ, only to the ones before.

The Laws are not there but what the Laws were teaching are still in play.

This is the method a perfect being takes? I would think that perfection would include something called logic, So in order for God to be perfect, this has to be the most logical way to forgive two people for what equates to "not listening to God".

Satan started the rebellion.God is not forgiveing Adam and Eve, he has done all this so we as Adams offspring have a chance to live in perfection. And the Angles to not question God Ever again

So if you were an all powerful being, and two of your creations disobeyed you, you believe that this is the most logical way to forgive two people who've disobeyed you?

Remember this is to settle things FOREVER, and do Not forget the angles have been tested by all this also. This Test end the rebellion Forever for ALL CREATION.


The problem is that He is all powerful, He is the one who decides what is just. Why would a logical being place a rule on Itself that states "In order to forgive someone who disobeys me, I have to do [all that stuff in the Bible]"?

God is perfect and he wants people out of Freewill to Love him. If God didn't stick to his standards he would be a liar. All this that Humans have gone through is nothing compaired to Forever.

Again, if you were God, being all powerful, all knowledgeable, and perfect, you would choose to place this restriction upon yourself while creating your version of Justice? What purpose does it serve?

In the End Goal is billions of humans who want to serve God because he is perfect in his ways and everything he does is justice, We can love a God like that, we were created to love him out of Freewill thats what God Wanted and is going to Get when this is over.


I'll just ask again why this method is the most logical and reasonable course of action. Why would a perfect being set up rules of the universe that dictate "people that sin will not be able to talk to me, unless they sacrifice animals to speak to me, well... until I send Jesus to be sacrificed, then people who believe that this happened and that Jesus is God, thosepeople can also speak with me ".

Jesus is not God! Jesus is God's Son. The 1st of all Creation. The way he has done this is perfect. God is proveing to all Creation his ways are Perfect.

If he just Zaped Adam and Eve and Satan then people forever could say hey maybe they hade a point why did you just kill them, I bet mankind could rule them self. How would you stop it just kill everyone who questions your killings?

If a ruler killed every man who did something he didn't like, would you love this ruler for his justice? Would you want to serve a ruler who just killed people like that? OR would you rather a ruler have a court system that has experenced a past Judicial Court Case that prove God's ways are Justice. Our world is that Judicial Court Case, it is almost perfectly Done and sealed.


In order for me to believe in the Bible, I need to be shown why God makes, what I consider to be, such unreasonable and irrational decisions.

It is logical. To end it Forever and as soon as rebellion pops up. Why would God wait to Clear the issue?

[Hardcore Newbie]

Forced to choose a path due to the fact that God says it's right isn't Free Choice. God wants us as Huamns to Freely Serve him.
No one's forcing them not to sin. The argument is that if on of the virtues of perfection is to abstain from sin, then a perfect being will always to choose not to sin. It's not a matter of being forced to make the right choice, it's the matter of always making the right choice. How can perfection chose to be wrong? Implying that Adam and Eve made the wrong choice means that they aren't perfect. The fact that they chose freely doesn't negate that a supposedly prefect being somehow made a choice in error, which means that they aren't perfect.


God wants people useing Freewill to Want to Love him and serve him, people would not love and want to serve him if his ways were unjustfyed.
I asked why he needed to sacrifice a person (we need to sacrifice a perfect human, you said), when He's the one who makes up the rules. I'm asking, why not just forgive the people instead of going through all this silliness.


He loves humans so much he is willing to go through all this crap and waste all this time to prove FOREVER that his ways are right.
I'm asking why it's the most logical way to approach forgiveness. In order to show me how it's logical, you need to show me the reasoning why this is the most logical route to forgiveness. You need to make an argument, not an excuse. The fact that He spent a lot of time on a really contrived version of forgiveness, doens't make a strong argument.


The Laws are not there but what the Laws were teaching are still in play.
That statement was just showing the roundaboutness of God's forgiving ways, I'm not even suggesting we should be under "old law".


Satan started the rebellion.God is not forgiveing Adam and Eve, he has done all this so we as Adams offspring have a chance to live in perfection. And the Angles to not question God Ever again
Again, I'm not asking for the story, I'm asking why God's ways of forgiveness are the most logical. I don't care about what He's done, I care about the why.



Remember this is to settle things FOREVER, and do Not forget the angles have been tested by all this also. This Test end the rebellion Forever for ALL CREATION.
Again I ask what you would do if you were in God's situation. In God's situation, if Adam and Eve disobeyed you, why would you banish them from your garden, give them the rules that God did, and make a perfect human some amount of time later to be sacrificed, when you could just forgive Adam and Eve, if that's what you truly wanted?


God is perfect and he wants people out of Freewill to Love him. If God didn't stick to his standards he would be a liar. All this that Humans have gone through is nothing compaired to Forever.
You're still not answering a single question. God *makes* the standards. If you were in the middle of dictating the laws of the universe (and for yourself), why would you make a rule that states that the only way you can forgive a sinner for breaking your rules is to banish them from eden and etcetera?


In the End Goal is billions of humans who want to serve God because he is perfect in his ways and everything he does is justice, We can love a God like that, we were created to love him out of Freewill thats what God Wanted and is going to Get when this is over.
I'm asking for the purpose of such a roundabout way of forgiving someone, that's all.


Jesus is not God! Jesus is God's Son. The 1st of all Creation. The way he has done this is perfect. God is proveing to all Creation his ways are Perfect.
Depending on who you ask, I suppose. but if He's proving to all that his ways are the most logical and perfect. You're just stating that they are perfect, but keep forgetting the "why?".


If he just Zaped Adam and Eve and Satan then people forever could say hey maybe they hade a point why did you just kill them, I bet mankind could rule them self. How would you stop it just kill everyone who questions your killings?
This is on forgiveness, remember? Why would God kill people he's trying to forgive?

Furthermore, If he "just zapped Adam and Eve" then there would be no more people, so where would they get this idea from?


If a ruler killed every man who did something he didn't like, would you love this ruler for his justice?
God does exactly that in some cases.



Would you want to serve a ruler who just killed people like that?
Of course not, which is why I wouldn't serve a Xian God, even if he did exist.


It is logical. To end it Forever and as soon as rebellion pops up. Why would God wait to Clear the issue?You're assuming that the only other logical option than animal sacrifice and such is death, and ignoring the easiest and most straight forward to forgiving someone...

Genuine Forgiveness.

[Krogith]

Adam and Eve are Dead Forever. They are not getting forgiven. After this test is over and we have it as proof of what happends going agenst God's laws. God is going to Rule the world he has Set up Jesus as his acting King and anyone who does not want to serve God and his Laws will be Dead Forever.

This world you see around you is a Test being proven. God knew we could not rule our self, but Satan and then adam and eve and many more have Tryed to Rule them self. All that have tryed have Failed, proveing God's Laws as Right.

Once the Test of this court case is over all will be allowed to Choose ither to serve God or Die Forever.

It's like a Math teacher is teaching a class, One child says out loud No thats ALL wrong Everything your teaching is Wrong. The Teacher doesn't just kick him out and cause people to wonder if he had a point. The teacher is letting the child do the work on the chalk board and prove that he didn't know what he was talking about. The child has been allowed to try every type of theory out there. The Teacher then would keep a record of this and from then on never has another child at the chalk board, but instead gets to show any Wrong thinking Children what that other child tryed and did.


Edit: Adam and Eve were told they are going to Die they were not given any rules.

[Hardcore Newbie]

Adam and Eve are Dead Forever. They are not getting forgiven. After this test is over and we have it as proof of what happends going agenst God's laws. God is going to Rule the world he has Set up Jesus as his acting King and anyone who does not want to serve God and his Laws will be Dead Forever.

This world you see around you is a Test being proven. God knew we could not rule our self, but Satan and then adam and eve and many more have Tryed to Rule them self. All that have tryed have Failed, proveing God's Laws as Right.

Once the Test of this court case is over all will be allowed to Choose ither to serve God or Die Forever.

It's like a Math teacher is teaching a class, One child says out loud No thats ALL wrong Everything your teaching is Wrong. The Teacher doesn't just kick him out and cause people to wonder if he had a point. The teacher is letting the child do the work on the chalk board and prove that he didn't know what he was talking about. The child has been allowed to try every type of theory out there. The Teacher then would keep a record of this and from then on never has another child at the chalk board, but instead gets to show any Wrong thinking Children what that other child tryed and did.


Edit: Adam and Eve were told they are going to Die they were not given any rules.So you have no answer to any of my points or questions, or just don't want to answer them, and you want me to take your word for this? And with your teacher analogy, the teacher will show them *why* they are wrong, you still haven't shown me any of the "why".

[Krogith]

So you have no answer to any of my points or questions, or just don't want to answer them, and you want me to take your word for this? And with your teacher analogy, the teacher will show them *why* they are wrong, you still haven't shown me any of the "why".


Why God wants people to Choose to Love him with Freewill? I'm not understanding your question of Why then.

You said it your self that you would not want to serve a Ruler that just kills anyone who go's agenst his word. Well God does not want to be like that. He is showing us THE why as we sit here today and read the news about Wars and Death and Hunger. This is why we have to do it god's Way this world you see today is the what happends.

The thing that needed to be Fixed was the Idea of what happends when you do things your own way and not God's.

[Krogith]

Why if a perfect human died to sin would a perfect human have to die to correct it? Not even a trillion sinful humans Deaths could make up for the loss of a perfect Human Dieing to sin. Only an even exchange would apply. If I'm still not getting your WHY please help me.

[aspasticbull]

I believe that he is asking why God has to go through such lengths in forgiving people instead of just saying. I forgive, please don't make the same mistake again.

[Hardcore Newbie]

Correct aspasticbull, Why set up the rules so that He can't just forgive us? It's the most contrived version of forgiveness I've ever seen.

[Krogith]

Correct aspasticbull, Why set up the rules so that He can't just forgive us? It's the most contrived version of forgiveness I've ever seen.

God is not forgiveing Perfect Humans or Sprit creation that has gone agenst God's laws. (It's not a matter of Forgiveing them) God also HAS to settle the question what happends if I do things My way and Not Gods. Other wise we would have rebellion forever.

Yes he created the laws and rules but to have Perfect Freewilled Creation serveing him out of LOVE. God has to rule with and not budge from his LOVE, JUSTICE, WISDOM, and POWER.

Adam was perfect and died from Sin, he then was father to the World. Only a perfect Man who never Sined could take his place to restore Mankinds ablity to draw close to God and Recive the Gift Adam and Eve were supost to have, Everlasting life on a perfect earth.

Jesus Did die for your sins But we are all sinners still. Psalms 37:11, 28,29 When this is fullfilled we will then become perfect, and as the scripture says the Wicked will be cut off Forever.

It's not a matter of forgiveing and lets have a nice day, a rebellion was started saying God's rule was unjust and we as any creation Human and Angel do NOT have to serve God. That had to be settled and then on top of that All the ones who do want to serve God will they Die? Then thats why Jesus was sent to Earth to die for all mankinds sins so anyone who belives in God and in Jesus Death could then get right back to where God STARTED and that is a perfect earth that he wants filled with perfect humans.

There is alot more to it that o dang dude you messed up ok well don't do it anymore.

[Hardcore Newbie]

Adam was perfect and died from Sin
You still haven't shown how a perfect being can make imperfect choices and decisions. The presence of free will does not change anything, the presence of free will doens't mean that you must choose the imperfect path, it just means that a choice is there, and a perfect being will choose the best choice, every time.

You can not state Adam to be perfect without addressing this glaring flaw.


, he then was father to the World. Only a perfect Man who never Sined could take his place to restore Mankinds ablity to draw close to God and Recive the Gift Adam and Eve were supost to have, Everlasting life on a perfect earth.
I'm not asking for the story, I know the story, I'm still asking for *why* God needed Jesus to forgive us, you and me. Why can't he just say "Adam effed up, but that shouldn't reflect badly on you, it's not your fault that Adam disobeyed".

Please stop explaining the story and explain the logic behind it.

I'm not asking for the purpose of Jesus, I'm asking for the rationality behind God choosing to forgive us in such a convoluted manner.


There is alot more to it that o dang dude you messed up ok well don't do it anymore.I generally believe in second chances myself, and for the simple act of someone disobeying me, my idea of forgiveness wouldn't be a conditional acceptance of Jesus. My idea would be to talk rationally about why certain things are wrong. I guess I'm just rational like that.

[yokinazu]

ok i just gotta jump in here.
if a perfect man died in sin then he aint so perfect is he. so therefore if he aint perfect he can be forgiven.
and the reason for "god" using jesus is easy. it comes from the bible and the bible is a book written by man and its all BS.

[Krogith]

You still haven't shown how a perfect being can make imperfect choices and decisions. The presence of free will does not change anything, the presence of free will doens't mean that you must choose the imperfect path, it just means that a choice is there, and a perfect being will choose the best choice, every time.

You can not state Adam to be perfect without addressing this glaring flaw.


I'm not asking for the story, I know the story, I'm still asking for *why* God needed Jesus to forgive us, you and me. Why can't he just say "Adam effed up, but that shouldn't reflect badly on you, it's not your fault that Adam disobeyed".

Please stop explaining the story and explain the logic behind it.

I'm not asking for the purpose of Jesus, I'm asking for the rationality behind God choosing to forgive us in such a convoluted manner.

I generally believe in second chances myself, and for the simple act of someone disobeying me, my idea of forgiveness wouldn't be a conditional acceptance of Jesus. My idea would be to talk rationally about why certain things are wrong. I guess I'm just rational like that.



Ok I can see where your comming from. You want to say that anything perfect Will always choose whats right.

I have had a hard time understanding this fact also in the past but we have to understand that. Perfection would have to mean that you Are fullly Capable of makeing the right decision. It done not mean you have to. Adam knew God and knew God gave everything good and did everything good for him. He Choose to follow his wife who was deceived.

He had all the knoladge of Gods ways and could speak with him during the brezzy pary of the day, And was told not to eat from the tree of knoladge of good or bad or you will die.

He choose to do things his own way, agenst God. Just because he was perfect does not mean he would allways choose whats Right.

He was perfect But remember he was not ALL KNOWING. Thats why the tree was put there in the 1st place to say to Mankind I God Know whats good and bad and I God know EVERYTHING. You have to listion to my laws or you will cause Pain to others.

Adam knew he should Follow God's laws and let his wife Die he Followed his own way. Perfection is Not All Knowing It is the Capability.

In Hebrew terms the word perfection draws from such verbs as sha-lam (come to completion) Ta-mam (be Completed) So he was fully able or completed and was able to follow God's laws perfectly.

It does not mean he would always make perfect decisions, He was Capable of doing so.

Freewill Means you got a clean sheet you can do what ever you want. So He was perfectly made and fully able to do whats right and follow God, he could still choose not to.

[aspasticbull]

clearly different people have different ideas of what perfect means

[Krogith]

If God decided perfection to mean that you always choose whats right, Then everyone would automaticly serve God. Because it's right, Not because they want to, or Love God and could choose not to serve him. But because God made perfection mean you always choose whats right, and God's ways are right. That is not what God wanted.

Thats why I keeped repeting my self (sorry) that God wants people to Choose to serve him out of Love for his ways.

Personaly I would rather it be this way because If you were A Father would you want you Sons to serve you because it's right and thats just what they do? Or would you want them to love your ways and Choose to serve you?

Freewilled service is a wonderful thing to be love by creations that Choose to love you. Not automaticly Love you Because your Right.

[Chong Version 2.0]

The fact that we even have to argue about crap like this makes me ashamed to be human. Adults believing in fairy tales are a disgrace. :wtf:

[Chong Version 2.0]

There is no such thing as free will. Every thing that we have done could have been predicted a million years ago if we had the know how. There is no such thing as random. The atoms bouncing around in our bodies behave like marbles or pool balls; their movements can be predicted. If things can be predicted at the atomic scale, they can be predicted at the universal scale.

History follows one course. Something wouldn't happen if it wasn't inevitable. Where the frick does a sky fairy who loves and tortures his creations fit into this?

[Hardcore Newbie]

I have had a hard time understanding this fact also in the past but we have to understand that. Perfection would have to mean that you Are fullly Capable of makeing the right decision. It done not mean you have to. Adam knew God and knew God gave everything good and did everything good for him. He Choose to follow his wife who was deceived.
By this definition of perfect, then nearly everyone on the planet is perfect. by this definition, perfection is is a man that could give his excess money to someone who needs it more, but chooses not to. Perfection is a man that can choose not to murder, but does so anyways.

If that's the expectation you have for perfection, then saying that Jesus was a perfect human being doesn't really say much at all.


In Hebrew terms the word perfection draws from such verbs as sha-lam (come to completion) Ta-mam (be Completed) So he was fully able or completed and was able to follow God's laws perfectly.
then shouldn't english bibles be translated accordingly?

Everything else you've written is just explaining perfection as a very low bar that nearly anyone could meet.

I'm also still waiting to hear the logic of why God would set up the rules that He couldn't forgive Adam, waited some thousands of years for his "perfect" son to come along and sacrifice himself in order for mankind to be able to live in eternal happiness.

[Hardcore Newbie]

Personaly I would rather it be this way because If you were A Father would you want you Sons to serve you because it's right and thats just what they do? Or would you want them to love your ways and Choose to serve you?
If I were a father and I had made the rules to the universe, would I consider my son to be perfect if he didn't see the perfection in my rules? No, of course not. A perfect being is not one that says "these rules are the best rules and I can't see why anyone would not follow them" while proceeding to break those rules.

[Krogith]

By this definition of perfect, then nearly everyone on the planet is perfect. by this definition, perfection is is a man that could give his excess money to someone who needs it more, but chooses not to. Perfection is a man that can choose not to murder, but does so anyways.
No Perfection Is being able to Follow GOD Perfectly and You would have to Continue Doing to to remain Perfect.

If that's the expectation you have for perfection, then saying that Jesus was a perfect human being doesn't really say much at all.


then shouldn't english bibles be translated accordingly?
Most words out there have Verbs that are conected with them. To better understand a Word.

Everything else you've written is just explaining perfection as a very low bar that nearly anyone could meet.

No Perfection is the Ablity of Adhearing Exactly to Gods standards, We can NOT do this as Humans Today.

I'm also still waiting to hear the logic of why God would set up the rules that He couldn't forgive Adam, waited some thousands of years for his "perfect" son to come along and sacrifice himself in order for mankind to be able to live in eternal happiness.

God makes his own standards your correct. He has decided that he wants Freewilled Creation to Choose out of that Freewill to Love and Serve him.

What would be your way to stop anarchy from sprouting and still have Freewilled Creation Chooseing to Love you?

The question of what if we do things our own way and not God's has to be settled Forever or there would never be True Peace.

*If God just wiped out adam,eve and Satan right at the start, The angles and what ever new Creation would still have that Question, untell it was solved And.(God would seem like that ruler we talked about that just kills people every time they step the wrong way, With nothing backing up his way but his say so) All we would learn from this sort of God is that he is Powerful

*If Adam and Eve were forgiven Then why do we listion to God anyways He will ALWAYS forgive you. Thats what people today think, and look at how they act. Cheat on your wife goto confession and do it next week.

*Or then you have like a 3 strike rule or something, then people get a certain amount of Get Out Of Trouble Crads? All would not end with Peace and happyness for all Liveing

[Krogith]

If I were a father and I had made the rules to the universe, would I consider my son to be perfect if he didn't see the perfection in my rules? No, of course not. A perfect being is not one that says "these rules are the best rules and I can't see why anyone would not follow them" while proceeding to break those rules.

What makes Perfection HAVE to fit this Definition? A perfect being could think highly of him self, A perfect being could want to Rule them self. Could even of been trusting to much in there own self. If they keep thinking in thoses therms then I can see how they could trick them self Even Being Perfect.

But from what I'm hearing from you is that nothing Perfect Could have Freewill?

logicly I see why your stuck on this, If something knows it's the right way why on earth was Adam so far Off? He trusted to much in himself. Pride.

[Hardcore Newbie]

This

Perfection would have to mean that you Are fullly Capable of makeing the right decision. It done not mean you have to. Adam knew God and knew God gave everything good and did everything good for him. He Choose to follow his wife who was deceived.

conflicts directly with this


No Perfection Is being able to Follow GOD Perfectly and You would have to Continue Doing to to remain Perfect.

In one post you claim perfection is merely being capable to make the right decision (but not having to), and in the next post, you claim it to mean being able to follow God's word perfectly and having to continuing to do so in order to be perfect. Which definition would you like to stick with?


No Perfection is the Ablity of Adhearing Exactly to Gods standards, We can NOT do this as Humans Today.



God makes his own standards your correct. He has decided that he wants Freewilled Creation to Choose out of that Freewill to Love and Serve him.

What would be your way to stop anarchy from sprouting and still have Freewilled Creation Chooseing to Love you?
The first thing I would do is take away their apples until they apologized, but then again I wouldn't make a silly rule such as "don't eat that apple, you'll learn something". I would want my creations to have just as much knowledge as myself, if not more.

But, supposing I didn't want my creations to have knowledge, and supposing that I wanted to punish them for acquiring it, my first thought wouldn't be "I know how to save mankind, lets wait a few thousand years for my next real perfect son to die, and if people want to be forgiven for what adam and eve did, all they have to do is believe and love that son!"

Mine would go something like "Whoever does their best in following these perfect laws seems good enough for me". See how easy that is?


*If God just wiped out adam,eve and Satan right at the start, The angles and what ever new Creation would still have that Question, untell it was solved And.(God would seem like that ruler we talked about that just kills people every time they step the wrong way, With nothing backing up his way but his say so) All we would learn from this sort of God is that he is PowerfulUnfortunately the God of the Bible is exactly like this, god says don't kill, yet he does. To me this clearly states that the laws that he makes clearly don't apply to himself.


What makes Perfection HAVE to fit this Definition? A perfect being could think highly of him self, A perfect being could want to Rule them self. Could even of been trusting to much in there own self. If they keep thinking in thoses therms then I can see how they could trick them self Even Being Perfect.
You think that a perfect being would disagree with the LORD (himself being perfect as well)? If you say this, then you are saying it is PERFECT to disagree with God.


But from what I'm hearing from you is that nothing Perfect Could have Freewill?
I've said nothing of the sort. I'm saying that if the Lord's word is perfect, then a perfect being would always choose, using their own free will, the perfect choice. It's not that they can't choose the imperfect decision, they just aren't willing to.


logicly I see why your stuck on this, If something knows it's the right way why on earth was Adam so far Off? He trusted to much in himself. Pride.
Pride must be a perfect quality to have, if pride is indeed one of Adam's characteristics. He must get that from his dad.

[Krogith]

I wish i could just talk to you. Typeing can be missunderstood way to easy. We are still trying to understand the same point and it is becomeing trivial. I'm going to try and respond so you can understand my perspective. lets do 1 idea at a time also.

[Krogith]

This


conflicts directly with this



In one post you claim perfection is merely being capable to make the right decision (but not having to), and in the next post, you claim it to mean being able to follow God's word perfectly and having to continuing to do so in order to be perfect. Which definition would you like to stick with?


A perfect being has the ablity to Choose (out of freewill) to do whats right. They know whats right and wrong from what God has told them. They do not know everything they are still learning.

You took my 1st statement wrong I did not mean that a perfect person remains perfect once they choose the wrong way. Once you choose to go agenst God's laws (due to pride you have let build up). You are no longer perfect. Pride Comes from Freewill you have the ablity to choose to not do it Gods way.

So Creation is Made perfect in the sence that it now has the perfect chance to follow God's laws, once that creation chooses not to then the creation has choosen sin.

Perfection is not only the Ablity to but the Adhearce of, to remain in the perfect state. All perfection is really is the ablity of and the following of God's laws to the Letter.

[Krogith]

The first thing I would do is take away their apples until they apologized, but then again I wouldn't make a silly rule such as "don't eat that apple, you'll learn something". I would want my creations to have just as much knowledge as myself, if not more.

It wasn't do not eat the apple you'll learn something.

The Tree was not a test belive me or not. The Tree was a statement, that being- I God Know all Good and Bad, I will tell you and instruct you in what is Good and Bad. Adam and Eve were to learn from God not to follow there own ways.

But, supposing I didn't want my creations to have knowledge, and supposing that I wanted to punish them for acquiring it,

It was not to punish the aquiring of knowledge, It was an awnser to Gods statement. That he knows whats good and Bad and would guide them.

my first thought wouldn't be "I know how to save mankind, lets wait a few thousand years for my next real perfect son to die, and if people want to be forgiven for what adam and eve did, all they have to do is believe and love that son!"

To awnser the question that was brought up, wich is what happend when we rule our self and do things our own way.

Mine would go something like "Whoever does their best in following these perfect laws seems good enough for me". See how easy that is?

They went Directly Agenst God's command. They only had 1 law also wich was to not eat from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad. Only God has the right to decide whats Good and Bad for his Creations. Not the creations themself.

[Krogith]

You think that a perfect being would disagree with the LORD (himself being perfect as well)? If you say this, then you are saying it is PERFECT to disagree with God. I think it is perfect that we are allowed to disagree with God. We never choose to be Born, so if you wish to not exsist you can.

I've said nothing of the sort. I'm saying that if the Lord's word is perfect, then a perfect being would always choose, using their own free will, the perfect choice. It's not that they can't choose the imperfect decision, they just aren't willing to.

The perfection you discribe makes the creation not really have free choice. If something has Freechoice then it could choose to fail.

Pride must be a perfect quality to have, if pride is indeed one of Adam's characteristics. He must get that from his dad.

This bring to mind the other post on flaw in ID. Pride in context is a Good quality. Haveing Pride in your God for exsample. Pride could be to have the good connotation of a sense of delight or elation arising from some act or possession.

But then like anything you can change it from good to bad and be prideful of yourself, wich then comes with a whole chest of Bad Trates.

[Hardcore Newbie]

I'll get to answering you soon, life's caught up to me :P

[mfqr]

Hardcore Newbie, you sure love to argue with Christians, don't you? :) Haha, I love it.

[Delta9 UK]

I love reading your posts too Hardcore Newbie.

It isn't just semantics either :thumbsup:

[Hardcore Newbie]

I came in to do lurking, I still don't have time to post anything in depth, but I find that I have groupies LOL. Hopefully soon, I miss this board.

[cwesto]

The bible was written in context from 2000 yrs ago, not everything will add up.

IMO it is religion that causes conflict and all the problems muslims have w/ christians, vise versa, jews and christians. I dont mean being part of a religion is a bad thing at all, but it is when people express their feeling about what they believe that conflicts start. 2 people expressing and believing 100% in 2 different gods or 2 different ideas of one god or figure ie - God, Yawe(however they spell it), Allah) or what one figure means ie - Jesus a savior or a prophet??? U follow??

If everyone would just preach to the people who already feel the same way, instead of trying to argue with people who share diff ideas there wouldnt be half the religious messes that happen on this world

Personally i think WW3 will start when the Jews in Jerusalem tell the Muslims to pack up and get the fuk back to Mecca, and take the dome of rok w/ em. When the golden dome of rok in jerusalem is toppled by the Jews, it will be the beggining of the end days.

I kno this is kinda off topic of roundablouts in the bible, but oh well.

I personally believe in both creation and evolution.:D For everyone who is going to argue with that, please dont, i dont care what u have to say.

[CultureCherryPopper]

Krogith, I have a hard time with saying Adam died from Sin. Adam followed Eve, his wife, WIFE, out of the Garden. How could a God ask a man to simply let his wife whom he loves walk away from him forever? I would do the same every time because it's not a fair choice. At worst, it is a matter of weakness, and really, it is devotion to the one he loved. But for God to condemn us all to lives of misery out of one couple's actions seems a bit, rash? Stupid? Selfish? Childish? Oh, I can't find a word, help me out here.

Also, if God is so perfect, why did he have to start over in the first place? Seems to me he can't get it right. Angels didn't like what he was doin', bam, war. And then brushed aside to a life of servitude and conflict while Man inherited the Earth right before them. Sure doesn't seem fair to say, hey, you fucked up, back of the line, but oh hey, you still gotta love me while you watch an inferior race take your place in my master experiment, I mean plan. And now, humans can't get it together evidently, so when are we gonna be wiped away for God to start over? I hope it's soon because boy, I cannot stand this awful, awful world.

So really, it seems God can't get his act together and figure out something that works, not to mention the fact he makes the same mistakes. Two times he's tried to control a group by telling them to follow him blindly, and both times it's failed. How many more times is going to take for him to figure out life in this universe will not just blindly accept something, and you know why, because it grinds against active consciousness and higher intellect. And you can say, God doesn't have to explain himself to us, we're just mere mortals and he's omnipotent and all-powerful, but really it's stubborn. And yet, twice it's failed, and yet he doesn't change his actions. So either, this is all just an experiment or game, or your God is stubborn and flawed. Which would confirm the fact that man is indeed created in God's image....;)

[Hardcore Newbie]

You took my 1st statement wrong I did not mean that a perfect person remains perfect once they choose the wrong way. Once you choose to go agenst God's laws (due to pride you have let build up). You are no longer perfect. Pride Comes from Freewill you have the ablity to choose to not do it Gods way.


Perfection is not only the Ablity to but the Adhearce of, to remain in the perfect state. All perfection is really is the ablity of and the following of God's laws to the Letter.Again, after showing you that you're using two definitions for the idea of perfect, you state that you're not doing so, and proceed to use two definitions


Did adam adhere to God's word? No, so by your second definition he can not be perfect.