Nitrogen Deficiency in Flower

[dejayou30]

I am pretty sure I have a nitrogen deficiency. The bottom leaves are completely yellow. I am two weeks into flower and coincidentally I'm due for a res change tomorrow. Could this be why? My nutes are Botanicare Pure Blend Pro Fruit and Flower 2.5-2-5. Its only appearing in one or two plants as of right now.

If its not just my plants signaling that its time for a res change, what's the best way to add nitrogen without hindering the flowering process?

[dejayou30]

Can anyone hook me up with some info here? I don't want to add too much nitrogen and slow down the flowering.

[blink_inc]

I don't think you should be adding N during flower. Makes it taste like crap unless really flushed well.

Yellowing during flower is normal and leaves will die of. Flowers will look great though. i really wouldn't worry about it. Is PH fine? have you over nuted? If ph is ok and nute schedule is good then probably not a problem.

I grow soil though.

[dejayou30]

My pH has been between 5.7 and 6.0 the entire grow, except for the first week or so after I got my meter and didn't calibrate it! :) The nutrients for my first two weeks of flowering were only 50% strength and the res was a couple days shy of 2 weeks old when the yellowing started which is why I thought maybe they had used up all the nitrogen. I did a res change yesterday (on the 2 week mark) and added full strength nutes since I am entering the 3rd week of flower. My PPM is at 1800, which seems high, but I did a search on Google for average PPM levels and found a couple different sources that says you can have your PPM that high in flower. The Pure Blend Pro jug suggested 675 mL for "Aggressive Fruiting/Flowering" so I added 500 mL. The veins of the yellow leaves look like they are turning green; do they normally turn green again or do they just die out? I'm halfway to the promised land and I don't need things fucking up now!

[Gundari]

well as i understand it, during flower the plant pulls nutrients and sugars from its self to feed the flowering process. The plants ultimate goal in life is to flower, produce seeds, then die. So basically what she's doing is pulling resources from somewhere she doesnt need them anymore and putting them towards budding.

[dejayou30]

Well I never thought of it like that, but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for the reply!

[Zcomp]

Yes but I have had a strain need more N than others. One sativa had to be harvested prematurely because its leaves were all dead while my trich's were still clear, and the hairs were still 80/20 White/Red. Next harvest I feed one extra veg feeding(30-15-15) after about 1 week of Bloom Nutes(15-30-15)and everything went well.

[PharmaCan]

Dejayou - post some photos!

What Gundari described is something that occurs later in flower but usually not so early. At two weeks into flower, you should be getting towards the end of your growth spurt. Being as you are talking about the lower leaves, they often die off just from lack of light.

How is your upper growth looking - the otherwise healthy leaves? Any spots on the leaves or red in the veins? If you can post some pics, it will help a lot.

How are your clones doing?

PC :smokin:

[stinkyattic]

You may be underfeeding entirely, or you may be locked out by pH. Check runoff pH, and if it's fine, crank up your nutes a bit- carefully- and watch for signs of burn. Ease off if you see any.
But pics would help very much.

[dejayou30]

I'm pretty confident that its not a pH issue. I monitor it pretty regularly. I tried to get some pictures, but the HPS light makes black lines in my pictures so you can't really tell whats going on. Maybe my cheap Sony camera. I upped the nutes to full strength and changed the res, so we'll see what happens.

[dejayou30]

Oh, and my clones are doing alright. I checked for roots yesterday and one of them spun around completely in the hole in the rockwool when I picked it up and I didn't see any roots coming through the rockwool on the others, so I'm not sure. They look normal though and aren't sagging or anything. I only spray them once in the morning and once at night, and I spray the dome instead of the leaves directly.

[rhizome]

Two weeks is a really long time on a res, esp in early flower.
Doubly so @ 1/2 strength.

I've pushed the PBP way up over 2k through stretch- some loved it ( pp), some less happy (blueberry).

Takes a couple runs to get it dialed in- well advised to underfeed ( reduced yeild) rather than overfeed ( cataclysmic die-off)

I think yer seeing underfeed, but I would be double-checking my pH with at least one differant meter/test before I ruled it out. Meters ( esp cheap ones- not too imply that your's is) can lie.

[dejayou30]

I must have had some setting wrong on my camera or something. Here are some pics.

Also, how often should I be changing my res? I thought 2 weeks was about average.

Also, my pH meter actually is the cheapo Hanna Champ, and I have calibrated it so many times that I can no longer "turn it down" to get it to read 7.0 solution. I have to see what it reads the 7.0 solution at daily and then subtract from the res reading accordingly. I also double check it with a liquid kit once a day and its always been accurate.

In the first pic is the deficient plant (farthest right), second pic is the three plants on the other side (I think the flash was on), third pic is a fat nasty bud-to-be. :jointsmile:

[Zcomp]

Oh that looks just fine. That amount of yellowing is no worry at your stage.

[dejayou30]

Well, there are leaves that are higher than the lowest buds that are starting to turn yellow now. They were on the back side of the plant and I haven't turned them for a couple days, so I'm not sure how long its been like that.

[Zcomp]

could be hot spots from your mylar. Nitrogen deficiency I believe goes from bottom up.

[dejayou30]

Yeah, its going from the bottom up. What I am saying is it has progressed past the bottom leaves. there were some that were curled up and brown when I went in just now. I got some new pictures, check them out. The big leaf looks like its turning back to green, or it at least looks greener than last time I saw it.

First pic is the yellow leaf that looks like its turning back to green, second pic is the other side of the same plant, the third is just a couple pics of the tops of two other plants, fourth is my hand and the top of one for size comparison. :jointsmile:

[dejayou30]

This should probably go in its own thread, but I have one plant that is really scrawny looking. The leaves are thin and saggy with the edges turned down, and I noticed some of the pistils are brown like they are scorched or something. They aren't even close to the light, so I suspected nute burn, but it is the only plant that has it. The other five are looking great aside from a few yellow leaves on the bottom of a couple. Is it possible that this one plant is just a weakling?

[rhizome]

Is it possible that this one plant is just a weakling?


Sure. There's always one or two.

I always budgeted for a start # about 33% higher than room capacity in late flower, so I could toss whatever was underperforming.

It's much easier to cull if you know that yer population is too high to finish anyway. If something's gotta go anyway, you'll look over yer room much more critically.

The great " Jedi mind trick" is not to get emotionally involved with particular plants- You cull the population because it's good for the population. Individuals ( you, me, that scraggley stick w/ leaves in the back corner that is supposed to be a Princess cut) are cheap.

Couple other things-

-for the first couple of runs, try to change your res once a week. This is a long-term hobby- plenty of time to get lazy/cheap later.

- Plants in the first few weeks of flower are actually pretty N hungry. During late stretch/early budset, the plant will be feeding harder than any other phase of growth. Don't starve em.

- Hanna meters are god-awful crap. There, I said it. If your meter won't calibrate, throw it away. You can adjust for a while and it'll work, but eventually it will bite you in the ass.

If you have to use a liquid test once a day, what good is the meter at all? Seriously, if you can't cal the meter, don't even use it- it's known bad data, and likely to color your interpretation of the liquid test result.

[PharmaCan]

DJ - It looks like you have too much red in your stems. If you can, next time the lights go out, put a cfl or two in there and get some good shots of the upper leaves and stems with the cfl's and flash. (You can turn off the HPS five or ten minutes early to take the pics and then not screw up your light cycle... cuz I know you worry about little things like that.) It looks like you might have some kind of deficiency going on there.

PC :smokin:

[dejayou30]

Yeah, the red stems and petioles have been prevalent throughout the grow. It has come and gone, not real sure what I did differently to make it disappear or reappear. I think I read about it being a phosphorus deficiency?

[dejayou30]

UPDATE: MORE YELLOW!

I don't know what to do. The yellow is progressing up the plant. There is also another plant that has a bunch of yellow leaves too. Both plants have a lot of redness in the stems, especially the stems of the big fan leaves. What is the deal???

pH has ranged from 5.8 - 6.1 over the past 24 hours.
PPM from 1500-1900. (added 2 gallons of water and diluted down to 1500 tonight due to low solution level)

First pic is most yellow plant, second is an aerial view of the other yellow plant. I didn't resize them this time for more detail, and they are a lot yellower in person.

EDI: Oops, they are also sideways. :wtf:

Also, the torn leaves look like a bug ate it, but I think its from when my leaves were twisted so they grew kind of weird.

[dejayou30]

There's also a lot of brown crusty spots on the ones that have been yellow for a couple days. I assume that means they are dying. Anyone have any ideas?

[dejayou30]

OK, so after looking the plants for a good while tonight, I have developed a theory, and its up to you experts to tell me if its feasible.

It looks like maybe the plant is consuming the older, larger leaves in light of new leaf growth around the bud areas. The leaves that have grown around the buds are a crisp, green, and look great, and a lot of the yellow leaves are the big single fan leaves, some of which are covering smaller lower buds. The lower bud leaves are just as rich and green as the higher ones. Is it possible that the plant is just eating up the large leaves to make way for buds and new leaves around the bud sites? The only problem with this theory is that it doesn't explain the redness in the stems.

[twoguysupnorth]

i know nothing about hydro, but two weeks into flowering they shouldnt be eating themselves already. if your ph isnt low then you need a small source of nitrogen. they have another 6 weeks to go.

[dejayou30]

Well its definitely not low pH. I have kept my pH more around 6 because I have been using the liquid test kit and its easier to tell yellow (6) than yellow-orange (5.7-8ish) without getting too lorange (5.5). I think I am just going to wait it out and see what happens. The new leaf growth around the buds has been rich and green and the buds are starting to pack on the pounds. Its pretty much just the old monster fan leaves that are cashing out.
What is the best way to add a small amount of nitrogen (in hydro) if needed?

[rhizome]

OK, so after looking the plants for a good while tonight, I have developed a theory, and its up to you experts to tell me if its feasible.

It looks like maybe the plant is consuming the older, larger leaves in light of new leaf growth around the bud areas. The leaves that have grown around the buds are a crisp, green, and look great, and a lot of the yellow leaves are the big single fan leaves, some of which are covering smaller lower buds. The lower bud leaves are just as rich and green as the higher ones. Is it possible that the plant is just eating up the large leaves to make way for buds and new leaves around the bud sites? The only problem with this theory is that it doesn't explain the redness in the stems.


Umm- that's not how it works. Yer plant is cannibalizing N from older growth to put toward new growth. Plants will do this w/ any of the " mobile" nutrients.
The early loss of your fan leaves will cost you yeild, and dearly.

If you want to add N, just use whatever your grow nute is- I RELIGIOUSLY use the grow nute through the first two weeks of 12/12. Prevents a lot of problems.

I have to ask- yer not letting ANY mylar come in contact w/ your nute solution, are you? Seeing mylar tucked under those net cups makes me worry- Aluminum oxide/nitrate/phosphate are not things you want in your res.

[dejayou30]

Umm I don't think so, because the water level doesn't get high enough, but I haven't really looked I guess. Ill try adding some of my grow fert tonight and see what happens.

[dejayou30]

Just to be clear - do you supplement with the grow fert or do you use it by itself. Also, if the mylar is touching the water, is it harmful to me in terms of smoking the final product or will it just kill my plants?

[wicker]

Hey, first post here at Cannabis.com. I'm with Rhizome, you are short on nitrogen. Your old growth is dying to support the new. This is way to early in 12/12 for this to happen and I wouldn't consider it healthy untill the last two weeks at the soonest. Heck, organic dirt farmers tend to not worry about it at all. You need to get your N up for the stretch. Depending on the strain, you may find you will need more N in bloom than most info would lead you to think, IMHO. Also consider getting your ph closer to 5.5/5.6.
Best of luck.

[dejayou30]

5.5 locks out a lot of stuff from what I've read, so I usually keep it around 5.7 or 5.8. Since my meter took a crap on me, I have to rely on a liquid tester so its harder to get it right at 5.7 or 5.8 so I usually just settle for around 6. I am going to add some of my veg nutes once the lights turn on and I can get in there.

[dejayou30]

So I added 100 mL of my veg nutes, which took my PPM up to 2300. I'm pretty nervous about nute burn, but more nervous about my plants dying. Everything was going great up until a couple days ago!

[rhizome]

Hmm- the thought was that you'd swap out some of the mixed flower nute and replace with mixed veg nute- should have been clearer.

That res is kinda hot- ya might wanna dump it and start over.



I maintain my veg nutrient regimen through the first couple weeks of flower. Stretch growth has a nutrient use profile much more similar to veg than to later flower, but much higher/hungrier. I look for the highest EC of veg nute to be applied during first week of 2/12, with a similar dose week two. If a quicker flowering cultivar, might run the veg 10 days then go to a 50/50- depends on how things look.
(I know I said religious- but I'm Catholic- God's laws have exemption clauses. :wtf:) Would have to be like a six week done typa thing, though.



Really, I would get that mylar out from under the cups- even root contact is going to cause weirdness. You're not saving that much light. Metal toxicities will do all kids of weird things in a plant- and I have absolutely no idea what the combustion by products of carbon-bound aluminum are gonna be.

OK, man, so -

Take a deep breath
Pump out your res
Refill with veg mix or a 50/50 veg/flower mix, if that'll make you more comfortable. Mix by label volumes- it sounds like you've got a pretty good feeder there.

I'm still wondering about your pH- When you do the color test, do you use a non-hps light source? Do you hold the chart and the vial next to each other, in the same bright non-hps light, with a white background behind the vial? These tricks wil help you to get a more accurate colormetric.

Hang in there, don't panic... you'll get it back under control.

[dejayou30]

I am checking this board like every 2 minutes, so keep the help coming! Things are really going downhill fast. One of my clones died, so I'm down to three, and turns out my veg pump didn't turn on, so I came home to a droopy mother! On top of this problem, things are really turning into one big shit storm!

I usually take the pH sample into the veg room and check it there; the HPS light makes it hard to see what color it really is. I used to be a lifeguard, so I'm pretty familiar with the pH color test. The mylar doesn't touch the solution, but I'll think about taking it off when I start the next grow. Its too much hassle right now. I'm gonna go change my res now.. :(

[dejayou30]

FUCK! The absolute worst thing imaginable just happened. Somehow, when I was putting my res back, it got a crack in it, and it started leaking water everywhere. At first I thought it was splash back,It leaked at least 2 gallons of water onto the floor and it ran everywhere. Also, one of the intakes of one of the bins snapped off in the commotion, so one of my bins is fucked. My partner is heading to Wal Mart for replacement as we speak, but I'm about ready to shit can this whole thing! :cursing::mad:

[dejayou30]

Oops, double post. I'm still pissed!

[dejayou30]

Got it figured out. I added nutes according to the label (675 mL total) and I'm still sitting at 2200 PPM. On a more positive note, the plants are starting to produce crystals!

[PharmaCan]

but I'm about ready to shit can this whole thing! :cursing::mad:

Yeah, right. The only way you'd shit can your grow at this point is if god himself came down and told you to do it.

...and even then you'd argue with him about it. :D

PC :smokin:

[dejayou30]

Once I saw that tube hanging after it had been ripped out of the bin, I almost called it quits, but luckily I didn't throw my old bins away and was able to use them. They just don't drain completely, so the plants are back to sitting in 3/4" of water at all times. How long will it take the plants to bounce back and turn back to green?

[dejayou30]

I diluted down to 2000 PPM. How long will it take for the plants to turn green again?

[dejayou30]

Can anyone please tell me how long it will take for my plants to start turning green again? I was also wondering what to do if they DON'T start turning back to green. I promise if you answer this, it will be my last post in this thread! :jointsmile:

[PharmaCan]

Can anyone please tell me how long it will take for my plants to start turning green again? I was also wondering what to do if they DON'T start turning back to green. I promise if you answer this, it will be my last post in this thread! :jointsmile:

DJ - The plants should start showing improvement within a day or two. I had a problem that I discovered this Monday - a clogged sprinkler head. I fixed the problem but by Wednesday the yellowing was worse so I flushed. Thusday I could see the green coming back just a little. This morning the plant looks a lot better - not back to normal but considerable improvement.

PC :smokin:

[dejayou30]

Well, its been 2 days and they look the same. Not really worse or better, just the same. The one that was really bad has lost a lot of lower fan leaves and is still pretty yellow, but the others look alright.

[romdog11]

i think you can totally up your ppms. my plants are on a 1200-1100 ppm diet and they LOVE it. when i was doing around 800-900 ppms they showed signs of slight defeciencies. i also agree hanna meters are shite. totally utter shite. get a blue lab truncheon ph meter or an oakton meter. also for my feeding schedule this is what i do. my first feeding in flower i do a mix of bloom and grow. half way thorugh my flowering period i do another feeding of a mix of bloom and grow so far my plants really like it.

[dejayou30]

My res was at 1800-2200 PPM so I don't think upping the nutes is the answer. In fact, I think I figured out that the PPM was probably too high and lowered it to about 1700. I will look into those meters though, the Hanna sucks!