why the future doesn't need us, by bill joy

[pisshead]

a billionaire who's been in the globalist meetings where they discuss massive world population reduction...for our safety...he's a guy with a conscience warning us.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html

[Herbaholic00]

Crazy stuff.... reminds me of The Second Renaissance Parts 1 & 2 from Animatrix. Some one told me the Wachowski brothers were part of some strange cult, u know n e thing about this or is it bullshit?



Peace

[Herbaholic00]

By David L. Ulin


Late last week, in a parking lot in New Jersey, the U.S. Army unveiled what may be the future of war: 3-foot-tall robotic â??soldiers,â?� outfitted with tank tracks, night vision and mounted automatic weapons capable of firing more than 300 rounds at a burst. Known as SWORDS (Special Weapons Observation Reconnaissance Detection Systems), these battle bots are on the leading edge of a new kind of warfare, in which â?? or so the argument goes â?? our troops will one day remain hidden (and, presumably, protected) while engaging the enemy by remote control. The Army intends to deploy 18 SWORDS units to Iraq in the spring, marking the first time robots have been used to fight and kill human beings one on one.

If, like me, you grew up on science fiction, the idea of robot soldiers strikes a chilling chord. Killer droids, after all, have long been speculative-universe staples, potent symbols of the dangers of technology, of what happens when machines go wrong. In Karel Capekâ??s 1920 play â??R.U.R. (Rossumâ??s Universal Robots)â?� â?? which introduced â??robotâ?� to the vernacular â?? automatons rise up to wipe out the human race. In â??Blade Runner,â?� renegade cyborgs stage a bloody mutiny and flee to Earth. Robotic armies rampage by the screenful in George Lucasâ?? â??Star Warsâ?� films.

And then, of course, there is the â??Terminatorâ?� series, in which robots designed to look and smell like people infiltrate human encampments to execute rebel leaders without mercy or remorse. This is the cybernetic future at its most apocalyptic: a world in which our high-tech weapons turn on us, just as we always feared they would.

The fear resonates. Why else would SWORDS designers feel compelled to reassure us, as they did last week, that their robots are not automonous terminators, but function only at the command of humans, , who must identify targets via video before giving the electronic OK to shoot?

On a certain level, the developers of SWORDS make a valid argument: These are not smart weapons, but surrogates for soldiers in the field. Itâ??s hard to quarrel with any tool that might make our soldiers safer, and if nothing else, a robot warrior will never have to worry about inadequate armor or supplies.

Yet something more disturbing is at work, a sense of willful disassociation, as if, with enough distance, we might remove ourselves from what war is. Here too the military mimics Hollywood. For â??Star Wars,â?� itâ??s been reported, storytellers relied on battle bots to take the blood out of the onscreen killing and render moral questions moot.

A similar logic fuels the ban on photos of flag-draped coffins â?? if we donâ??t see them, theyâ??re not there â?? and itâ??s no stretch to suggest that SWORDS, and other high-tech weapons now being developed by the Pentagonâ??s Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, will further sanitize our point of view.

What canâ??t be sanitized, however, is the robotâ??s deadly efficiency; remove the human from the weapon, and problems like recoil and breath control are eliminated, allowing the robot to hit a nickel-sized target at 328 yards. In one test, a SWORDS scored 70 out of 70 bullâ??s-eyes.

Thirty or so years ago, the composer John Cage proposed a different sort of battle strategy: Take the heads of warring nations, give each a 50-pound sack of horse manure, lock them in a room, and let them fight it out. Itâ??s a quixotic notion, but at least it takes into account a human element, the idea that war cannot be waged without a price.

As for the SWORDS units, what does it say about us that this is how we use our creativity â?? to invent robots that offer more efficient ways to kill? How can we be so disconnected that we refer to people as â??targets,â?� whether they are enemies or civilians, too indistinct to identify through the garble of a video display? Surely we lose something by all this disengagement.

Itâ??s easy to be ruthless from a distance; less so when you see the whites of someoneâ??s eyes. If thereâ??s no potential for human cost, how do we calculate our humanity, how do we show anything resembling restraint? And without restraint, are we even fully human anymore?





Peace

[Torog]

Howdy Herbaholic,

As a veteran,I like the idea of using the SWORD bots,especially in a situation,where the enemy blends into the civilian populace. I'd like to see the concept expanded to include large battle bots,the size of a main battle tank. I also believe that most of our uav's,should be armed as well,and that we should use them more often . An uav managed to capture those responsible for the US embasy attack,on video and lead us to their hide-out.

Are you one of those who believe that fighting from a distance-is cowardly ? If so,why is it,that you think that the forces of evil and tryanny,should be given any advantage ? Using ied's against our forces,is fighting from a distance,ain't that cowardly ?

So..who do you support ? Americans liberating folks from tryanny..or those who seek to re-impose it ?

Have a good one...Torog

[F L E S H]

Sure Torog, use US robots to kill humans in other countries, and Americans won't feel as bad about it because there's no American casualties.

I have a better idea. Why don't we implant chips in all humans all over the world so that the US can kill anyone they want at the flick of a switch. Wouldn't you like that? You could kill 'dirty muslim scum' just by thinking about it!

[Torog]

Sure Torog, use US robots to kill humans in other countries, and Americans won't feel as bad about it because there's no American casualties.

I have a better idea. Why don't we implant chips in all humans all over the world so that the US can kill anyone they want at the flick of a switch. Wouldn't you like that? You could kill 'dirty muslim scum' just by thinking about it!
Howdy FLESH,

I'm just curious..why is it that you want the jihadists to succeed ? Why do you continue to excuse and ignore the monstrous brutalities that they commit ? Why is it that you're making any excuses for islamofascism ?

I think that we should use these SWORD bots against gangs in the US-do you think that's wrong ? Why should 'known' drug houses,that sell hard drugs,be allowed to continue to operate and git our children hooked on hard drugs ? You see it all the time,on the tv show"Cops",the cops are always busting folks that have been seen leaving a 'known' drug house..why don't they ever shut down the drug house ? A SWORD bot would be able to take out the crack,meth and heroin dealers,without risking the lives of cops..and if the dealers resist and perish-then the tax-payers will be saved many dollars in re-habilitation and incarceration expenses.

If a muslim wishes to live in peace with their neighbors,I ain't got a problem with that..it's up to the muslim to decide which way they will interpret the koran..using it's verses for violence or finding a way to live in peace with us 'infidels'.

Have a good one..Torog

[F L E S H]

I'm just curious..why is it that you want the jihadists to succeed ? Why do you continue to excuse and ignore the monstrous brutalities that they commit ? Why is it that you're making any excuses for islamofascism ?

I really resent these rather stupid assumptions you make about me. I'm not excusing anything they do, because in my eyes they're the scum of the Earth. For fuck's sake, I shouldn't even have to defend myself from stupid accusations like these.

I'm not making excuses for Islamofascism, or whatever you wanna call it. You're the one, actually, making excuses for Americanofascism. You see? I can throw out poiltical terms that don't make sense too.

My point is that making killing other human beings easier is amoral and just plain disgusting.

You want to make killing people easy, and you wanna ease the public's conscience by saying that we can make it so much easier by sending automated robots to do our dirty work. That's my problem, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Islam or anything else for that matter.

If anyone is amoral on these forums, it's you. You preach nothing but violence and death, and you wanna make it easier. Yeah, sometimes war is inevitable, I can accept that. But it's an ultimate resort, not the solution to all of life's problems, like you think.

Kill all dem bastards! yee haw!!

[pisshead]

hey torog, why is it that you don't care about the destruction of your constitution and bill of rights?

why do we have to turn into a dictatorship in order to be safe from terrorism? and how does having a wide open border keep us safe?

you blindly support socialism and fascism at home...

[Libertarian Toker]

Howdy FLESH,
I think that we should use these SWORD bots against gangs in the US-do you think that's wrong ? Why should 'known' drug houses,that sell hard drugs,be allowed to continue to operate and git our children hooked on hard drugs ? You see it all the time,on the tv show"Cops",the cops are always busting folks that have been seen leaving a 'known' drug house..why don't they ever shut down the drug house ? A SWORD bot would be able to take out the crack,meth and heroin dealers,without risking the lives of cops..and if the dealers resist and perish-then the tax-payers will be saved many dollars in re-habilitation and incarceration expenses.

What??? Your kidding right? How can you support the war on drugs Torog? I find that to be rather odd. I have done plenty of coke in my time. I quit doing it on my own. No one had to kill the guy I got it from to stop me. One of the guys I used to get it from was a good friend, and still is. He is one of those people you think should perish to save the life of a useless drug cop. Me, I would be extremely pissed to hear that he had been killed that way, not pleased that he saved the tax payers some change. I wonder Torog, what would happen if they used your sword bot on suspected weed dealers? Would you approve of that also? If they sent a bot to slay me in my patch, would it make you happy that some taxes had been saved? You may want to rethink your support of drug war tyranny Torog. It's way wrong for you to be supporting that type of action. If you can change your head with beer and weed, why can't the next guy do a few lines, or eat some mushy's to change his head? Freedom should be for all Torog, not just a few.

Toker

[F L E S H]

Nah, LT, you got Torog all wrong... weed is ok because HE says so. Appaarently, he's wise enough to decide for us what we should and shouldn't be doing, and even who we can and cannot kill...

[Herbaholic00]

Ok before I answer your questions Torog i'll just say that I havn;t really read or heard much about these Sword bots things, i just came across the article and stuck it onto this thread because it is kind of relevant.




Are you one of those who believe that fighting from a distance-is cowardly ?
If so,why is it,that you think that the forces of evil and tryanny,should be given any advantage ? Using ied's against our forces,is fighting from a distance,ain't that cowardly ?

I dont really think it cowardly to use robots or fight from a distance, its clever... if I had an army then I would rather be using robots than people, after all the aim is to complete your goal with as little casualty for your self as possible.




So..who do you support ? Americans liberating folks from tryanny..or those who seek to re-impose it ?

Whilst I do believe that everyone should enjoy the freedoms that I do I dont really believe that the U.S. governments main goal is 'liberating folk', more like they want to instal puppet governemnts and open up and exploit markets aswell as put military bases in strategic posistions.

I bleive the terror threat is totally exagerated and the order out of chaos thoery is being putinto play. Immagine if 9/11 hadn;t of happened , the world would be such a different place, I am skeptical about the real agenda of the war especially as there are still so many unaswered questions from 9/11. To me 9/11 seemed to be the point that the government really started to move on there long term plan...............dare I say New World Order or is that just too way out...I always wondered why its writtern on the $ bill in latin tho.......maybe you know?




Peace

[Torog]

What??? Your kidding right? How can you support the war on drugs Torog? I find that to be rather odd. I have done plenty of coke in my time. I quit doing it on my own. No one had to kill the guy I got it from to stop me. One of the guys I used to get it from was a good friend, and still is. He is one of those people you think should perish to save the life of a useless drug cop. Me, I would be extremely pissed to hear that he had been killed that way, not pleased that he saved the tax payers some change. I wonder Torog, what would happen if they used your sword bot on suspected weed dealers? Would you approve of that also? If they sent a bot to slay me in my patch, would it make you happy that some taxes had been saved? You may want to rethink your support of drug war tyranny Torog. It's way wrong for you to be supporting that type of action. If you can change your head with beer and weed, why can't the next guy do a few lines, or eat some mushy's to change his head? Freedom should be for all Torog, not just a few.

Toker
Howdy LT,

You're right,of course..I don't know what I was thinking..I guess I had this image in my mind of hard-core ,hard drug dealers that sell drugs to little children..can you agree that those kind of dealers should be eliminated ? Instead of having LEO's take the dealer out-it should be done by other dealers that don't sell to children..some vigilante action. I'll try and be more clear on what it is that I want to do in the future,because I don't want to be percieved as supporting the WOD in any way.

However,I still believe that communities should drive out the gangs in their midst,if possible..not because they sell drugs to adults,but because they sell or give drugs to children,to git them hooked as future customers. My intent,is more to declare open season on gang-bangers,than it is an effort to bust drug dealers down.

Thanx for pointing out the error of my ways,LT..lol..sometimes I git a little bit carried away.

Have a good one...Torog:o

[Libertarian Toker]

I have known a lot of drug dealers in my time Torog. I have never known one to target young children. I think maybe your falling for some BS spread by the drug war. It's for the children don't cha know. Say Torog. how many liquor stores do you know of that target young children? It's the illegal thing that makes hard drugs available to young people. You can bust people until you turn blue in the face, but you will get nothing done unless you end the prohibition that's causing the availability to children. Everything you have said has been said about weed also. We both know it is not true about weed. Nor is it true about other drugs.

Teach Your Children

( Crosby, Stills and Nash )

You, who are on the road,
Must have a code that you can live by.
And so, become yourself,
Because the past is just a good bye.
Teach your children well,
Their father's hell did slowly go by.
And feed them on your dreams,
The one they picks, the one you'll know by.

Don't you ever ask them why, if they told you, you will cry,
So just look at them and sigh and know they love you.

And you, of tender years,
Can't know the fears that your elders grew by.
And so please help them with your youth,
They seek the truth before they can die.
Teach your parents well,
Their children's hell will slowly go by.
And feed them on your dreams,
The one they picks, the one you'll know by.

Don't you ever ask them why, if they told you, you will cry,
So just look at them and sigh and know they love you.......

[NowhereMan]

i ve known a few in my day
some stand on the corners they dont care about age

if it was legal it can be managed better than it is now
thats a fact





I have known a lot of drug dealers in my time Torog. I have never known one to target young children. I think maybe your falling for some BS spread by the drug war. It's for the children don't cha know. Say Torog. how many liquor stores do you know of that target young children? It's the illegal thing that makes hard drugs available to young people. You can bust people until you turn blue in the face, but you will get nothing done unless you end the prohibition that's causing the availability to children. Everything you have said has been said about weed also. We both know it is not true about weed. Nor is it true about other drugs.

Teach Your Children

( Crosby, Stills and Nash )

You, who are on the road,
Must have a code that you can live by.
And so, become yourself,
Because the past is just a good bye.
Teach your children well,
Their father's hell did slowly go by.
And feed them on your dreams,
The one they picks, the one you'll know by.

Don't you ever ask them why, if they told you, you will cry,
So just look at them and sigh and know they love you.

And you, of tender years,
Can't know the fears that your elders grew by.
And so please help them with your youth,
They seek the truth before they can die.
Teach your parents well,
Their children's hell will slowly go by.
And feed them on your dreams,
The one they picks, the one you'll know by.

Don't you ever ask them why, if they told you, you will cry,
So just look at them and sigh and know they love you.......


great song btw love that one

[Torog]

Howdy LT,

What can I say ? ..'cept that you're right..and I'm wrong..when ya put it that way-for sure..I don't know what I was thinking..thanx for pulling me back from the madness !

It's so easy to git drawn into wanting to legislate behaviour and coercing others into conforming to what we think is right for everyone-when clearly it is not. I apologize for being guilty of such..and I hope that I can be more mindful in the future.

Have a good one...Torog

[Herbaholic00]

Why is it that people can see through the governments war on drugs for the bull shit that it is yet when the same government tells you that there is a war on terror and that each and everyone of you is in immediate danger etc you follow blindly....................
Isn;t it basicly the same line for both terror and drugs, how we are in danger from it etc



It doesn;t make sense to me, the governemnt will lie and blow things out of proportion about the war on drugs to gain advantage so why would they tell the truth about the war on terror?

Hopefully you can help me understand your point of view.



Peace

[pisshead]

yeah, and just like the CIA ships in the drugs, which is fully documented...guess who's responsible for the major terror attacks...

and who stands to gain...

as the police are militarized, and the cashless society control grid is being put in place, and the mechanisms to tax us all by the miles we drive and have a national id card with cameras watching us everywhere...this is not freedom.

there's 2.4 trillion missing from the pentagon, the government is looting the people and preparing to steal our pension funds. the feds changed the rules that now companies own the pension funds and can take them away, for our safety.

total despotism is being put in place, while we're told we need to liberate the world. the world sees what we're doing, but here in the belly of the beast, we cheer it on.

[Herbaholic00]

the police are militarized, and the cashless society control grid is being put in place, and the mechanisms to tax us all by the miles we drive and have a national id card with cameras watching us everywhere...this is not freedom

This is kinda much the same for the UK, we are always a l;ittle behind the U.S. but we are always there. Interesting point about the taxing of miles we drive they have been on about it for a while in the uk now, i'v never really thought about it that way before...

As for the pension funds........ditto again.



Peace

[Libertarian Toker]

Howdy LT,

What can I say ? ..'cept that you're right..and I'm wrong..when ya put it that way-for sure..I don't know what I was thinking..thanx for pulling me back from the madness !

It's so easy to git drawn into wanting to legislate behaviour and coercing others into conforming to what we think is right for everyone-when clearly it is not. I apologize for being guilty of such..and I hope that I can be more mindful in the future.

Have a good one...Torog

Right on man, I'm glad to hear your thinking a little differently about it now. I'm sure that you would do the same for me if I went loco for a bit also. Say, hows that car coming along??? PM me and let me know your progress. Nothing like a small car with a large engine to make ya go fast.

Toker

[moomoo]

[B]i think torog is a cop

[Libertarian Toker]

[B]i think torog is a cop

Really? What makes you think that? I have personaly toked up with the guy, trust me on this one man, he is not a cop. No way, no how is Torog a cop!

Toker

[Torog]

[B]i think torog is a cop
Howdy moomoo,

First off-I ain't no daggum cop..but what I am-is a veteran and a father..that means that I hate those dealers who git children hooked on hard drugs,and if those dealers aren't American citizens,then as a veteran-I want them out of our neighborhoods..is that so hard to understand ? If you had children,how would you feel about them being approached by some dealer that gave em free drugs,to git em hooked ? It happens everyday to kids at school.

I've taken all the hard drugs,cept for heroin,I've always had the sense to stay away from that - I know the consequences and I want,as a father,for children to focus on school and make this a better country..my intentions are good..but not practical..one cannot legislate morality or ethics..and not all dealers are bad. Adults should have access to whatever they want,unless it causes harm to another. Also,as LT pointed out,it's a trap,to do things for the sake of the children..no matter how appealing it is,it's usually just trying to force good behaviour.

So moomoo,what do you think ? Is it okay for drug dealers to sell drugs to children as young as 10 years old ? Do you think those kind of dealers ,are okay and have a 'right' to sell to whom they please ? I dont-because I'm a father and a veteran,who wants a better,safer country..to that end,I've voted for Libertarian judges and intend to vote for them every chance I git..so that we can stop the WOD and take away the profits that lure dealers into selling to little children.

Gangs are usually the ones that are guilty of selling to children and gittin them hooked on hard drugs. They then take those same children,and either pimp em out or make them sell drugs to other children..it's only natural,as a father and a veteran,that I oppose such..it doesn't make me a cop.

Have a good one....Torog

[Herbaholic00]

I think some of you war on terror supporters must have missed my question from before.....this is it again.



Why is it that people can see through the governments war on drugs for the bull shit that it is yet when the same government tells you that there is a war on terror and that each and everyone of you is in immediate danger etc you follow blindly....................
Isn;t it basicly the same line for both terror and drugs, how we are in danger from it etc



It doesn;t make sense to me, the governemnt will lie and blow things out of proportion about the war on drugs to gain advantage so why would they tell the truth about the war on terror?

Hopefully you can help me understand your point of view.



Peace



Peace

[Libertarian Toker]

I think you may be over reacting just a bit Torog. The "pusher" is a figment of the drug wars imagination. No one is handing out free drugs at schools to get kids hooked. I understand your concern, but reality is quite a bit different. Maybe in Texas they do that type of thing, but it's very rare here for it to happen that a ten year old would get free hard drugs at their school. Your fear of gangs is way out of proportion with reality also. I hate to be harsh, but it's the way I see it man. To much fear is unhealthy Torog. The drug dealing gang members are not about to pull a drive by on you. You can't restrict their Freedom of association because of a label called "gang". A board meeting could be called a "gang" meeting too. My guess is that a lot of the larger corp's around dabbled in the drug trade in one form or another. They are the ones selling to the "gangs" or unaproved drug dealers that are selling to "10 year olds in schools" if anyone is doing that type of thing for real. Hell, they more then likely get the shit from the CIA. Some where along the way you have decided that gangs cause the problems, when all along it is the drug war that is causing the problems. End the drug war, and the gangs will evaporate into nothing. Gangs are not the problem Torog, the drug war is.

Toker

[moomoo]

ive been smoking weed since the middle 60s and ive never been on a website like this before ,but everyone that ive hung out with or have run into that smokes weed(ive lived all over the USand canada )during this 40 year period, and ive never come accross some one as right wing and as negative as ,what he writes on these boards. in fact 99% of all the TRUE potheads that ive met are really caring ,trying to be positive people. i hope im explaining this ok ,i really dont want to piss anyone off

[Libertarian Toker]

ive been smoking weed since the middle 60s and ive never been on a website like this before ,but everyone that ive hung out with or have run into that smokes weed(ive lived all over the USand canada )during this 40 year period, and ive never come accross some one as right wing and as negative as ,what he writes on these boards. in fact 99% of all the TRUE potheads that ive met are really caring ,trying to be positive people. i hope im explaining this ok ,i really dont want to piss anyone off

A virgin are ya? Well let me welcome you to this wonderfull world called weed message boards. Climb aboard and open your mind. All sorts of people smoke pot here. Thats what makes these types of places so interesting. If you only hang around people that think like you do, eventualy you will look back at 40 years of weed toking and think all pot heads are the same as you. Man, you just couldn't be more wrong. Torog is, well, not exactly a young-un himself. Lol! Sorry Torog, but you know it's true. Me, I was born in 66. It was 76 before I first toked up.

"TRUE potheads"

I'm sorry to be so ignorent, but could you explain to me what a true pothead is a little better? I don't think I am getting what your saying. It seems as if your saying "true pot heads" are lefty's. Is that what your trying to say? I have always been under the impression that a pothead can be of any political leaning, just as long as he or she tokes the hell out of some weed. Are you saying that if you smoke a lot of weed, but your political leanings are to the right, that your not a pothead?

Toker

[NowhereMan]

ive been smoking weed since the middle 60s
and that means what exactly
and ive never been on a website like this before
only thing i really think your clued in on about

,but everyone that ive hung out with or have run into that smokes weed(ive lived all over the USand canada )during this 40 year period,

so you never really settled down and met any as outspoken is all.

and ive never come accross some one as right wing and as negative as ,what he writes on these boards.

she may have ya there torog, u can depress a mofo like none other. :D

in fact 99% of all the TRUE potheads that ive met

i wont even ask what that means ill just say i except your apology

are really caring ,trying to be positive people.
i hope im explaining this ok ,i really dont want to piss anyone off

not really and nobody gonna get mad
least off not too many anyway
u did make me luagh about torog and that cop shit
did you see his picture,?

[moomoo]

thanks for replying. i have 2 young grandchildren and ,of course im against that type of thing. i smoke pot only. i did lsd in the 60s and liked it very much. i did try herion once and i hated it. i passed out and then threw up,i dont like booze either. i think pot is the best! i was just surprised at some of your comments thats all-not necessarily about drugs but other things-like Choice- and you seem to like bush-who would put us in jail in a NY minute if he could catch all of us pot smokers,stuff like that. i really dont mean to critsize you but i guess i wasi can you explain Libertarianism?(if you feel like it,of course.)i hear about it a lot and in fact in my state i heard that 20,000 libertarians are or have moved here(NH) do you know anything about that.? sorry for calling you a cop!!

[moomoo]

I agree with you totally. i dont belive a word bush says. why hasnt he gotten osama? why does he keep on trying to connect 911 to Iraq? do you know ive met e few people who fall for that bait-that they actually think that Binladen and sadam are the same person??thats what bush and co. would like us to believe. please check out this website:www.911truth.com (i am originally from nyc so you can imagine how i felt)

[moomoo]

where do they tax miles and how can they figure it out.? do they look at your speedometer? man tht really sucks!

[pisshead]

check out www.austintollparty.com for the austin toll road scam currently being sold to us...

it's a giant privatized/fascist/socialist scam. it's tyrannical and unnecessary, and most people are against it. the politicians laugh at us, they know we can't vote them out, they own the voting machines.

and then do a google search for 'mileage tax' or for similar things...

this has been given federal funding around the country to test, and most cars for at least a decade get the plugin for the mileage tax and have data recorders.

i posted an article from NH a while ago about license plate reading cameras that could check to see if you had paid all your taxes. i've read mainstream articles from england too where this is going on. this is one purpose of the cameras going up all around the country. you'll even find them in small middle of nowhere towns in texas.

it's all about your freedom.

[Torog]

thanks for replying. i have 2 young grandchildren and ,of course im against that type of thing. i smoke pot only. i did lsd in the 60s and liked it very much. i did try herion once and i hated it. i passed out and then threw up,i dont like booze either. i think pot is the best! i was just surprised at some of your comments thats all-not necessarily about drugs but other things-like Choice- and you seem to like bush-who would put us in jail in a NY minute if he could catch all of us pot smokers,stuff like that. i really dont mean to critsize you but i guess i wasi can you explain Libertarianism?(if you feel like it,of course.)i hear about it a lot and in fact in my state i heard that 20,000 libertarians are or have moved here(NH) do you know anything about that.? sorry for calling you a cop!!
Howdy moomoo,

I think it's great-that you have 2 grandchildren-in fact..I'm a little jealous,my daughter turns 25 next month,and she still hasn't had any children yet..maybe some day !

Yup..I voted for Bush,because I want a president that won't make excuses for terrorists and the countries that support and export them,like Kerry would have done. I don't like the fact that Bush would lock me up in a new york minute,for smoking weed..but at least he understands that American ideals and principals,must survive-in order for the world to survive.

As for libertarianism,that's not me you should ask to explain,Libertarian Toker,is the one you should ask.

I'm the one you called a cop-not Libertarian Toker.

I was raised in a very conservative household of conservative Christians,I can't help but to be steeped in conservatism and traditional,conservative Christian values. My mind-set is more akin to a conservative soldier,with Christian values ..I am a Navy vet. However-in '71,I grew out my flat-top hair-cut and started parting my hair down the middle,and I joined the hippy culture,in rebellion to my dad's ultra-conservatism,and started smoking weed and experimenting with drugs. I ain't looked back since then and have enjoyed smoking weed ever since. Once I got married and we had a child,my conservative family values came back and served me well-in terms of being a reponsible father and husband. I have good intentions,they just come out a bit heavy-handed and I apologize for that.

Have a good one...Torog :D

[Herbaholic00]

i posted an article from NH a while ago about license plate reading cameras that could check to see if you had paid all your taxes. i've read mainstream articles from england too where this is going on

This is going on quite alot by me, i've seen it several times. The police call it A.N.R.P - automatic number plate recognision. the police hav a moblie camera unit thing they flash u with, if you got outstanding fines, no tax etc they pull you down the road.



Peace

[moomoo]

i also agree with you on that, too the cia gave lsd to people(including their own) in -i think-the 50s. thats a known fact. the history channel had a doc on it. in the 60s the best lsd around, was called Owlsey acid. it was rumored that Owlsley was cia. someone took a pic of him and he didnt look to hip (circa-1967) times are really scary and im afraid that bush and company is the "bugyman"

[pisshead]

i know, the same government that plants fake newsletters from troops all around the country, the same government that prescribes hallucinogens and speed to kids but will put you in jail for decades for growing a plant...a government that perpetuates an endless drug war that eviscerates the bill of rights and contistutiton...that treats protesters like 'terrorists'...these aren't the actions of a benevolent government upholding the bill of rights and constitution, it sounds like a mass of elite (many of whom share close bloodlines) consolidating wealth and power into their hands while they maniuplate the economy with a fiat currency. sounds like classical tyranny.

it would take at least 100 pages, single spaced to just scratch the surface of the level of government corruption we have, as we liberate the world.

and somehow everything is alright.

[moomoo]

holy shit i had ni idea! i work w/ special needs and we do a LOT of driving. that would really suck if it took over, especially with the gas prices the way they are now. i get a lot of mail from progressive sites and this is the 1st ive heard. any thing to nmake life a little more stressful, GOD!!

[moomoo]

do you mean tickets and/or outstanding warrents ,or taxes.? so much for LIVE FREE OR DIE

[pisshead]

they've come out and said publicly here in austin that for most people, the annual tax will be about $1500, and it'll either be debited from your account on a yearly or semi-yearly basis automatically through your "EZ tag" or mailed to you.

chicago just upped the amount for the tolls if you don't take the transponder. this is to force people onto the system. it's the reason there aren't sales in grocery stores anymore unless you get the card. people are practically forced to get the card and be trained to swipe it. this is so homeland security and fema (when martial law is declared) can control and tax people individually based on health factors and a range of other things...total micromanaging of peoples' lives,

to keep us safe from terrorism? how does all of this tyranny keep me safe from terrorism?

katherine albrecht found notes from Walmart meetings where they talk about RFID being sold to the public as inevitable and to just accept it, there's no stopping it...she went through legal hell even though they were on a public website available to billions. i'll have to find the link for that...but it's probably at www.nocards.org and www.spychips.com

it's the reason you have a grocery card and RFID is going into all products. a total electronic control grid is being put in place, and it will be solidified with RFID, the national ID card, and the national sales tax. you will officially be a technological serf.

everything you buy will be tracked back to you through "readers" that can be set up all around a city. this makes what Anne Frank's family did impossible. this makes it impossible to hide, even if you're hiding from your own government that wants to ship you to a camp so they can kill you.

even if our government is angelic and wonderful, why on earth would we put these systems in place where a suave dictator wanna-be gets into office and uses it against us? is that really smart? do we want to go down this road? does history matter?

just think of it like you're paying for your well deserved freedom, it's the least you can do, you aren't a terrorist, right? this is freedom. the whole world needs this freedom.

[moomoo]

Man what a scary picture but you are right. i havent seen any sign of that stuff, other than those grocery card things and not all of the big grocery stores here have them. i dont think this is happening in mass. yet either-any one else from new england area out there that has heard of this? i guess we are going into orwellian times and [probably our govtment isnt so great. i feel for all the young soldiers fighting over there-for what-and the ones that do make it back-oh, viet-nam doesnt seem so long ago-on the ligher side- wasnt paul m awesome at the stupid eh super bowl? hes DEFINATLY one of the good guys of the world

[moomoo]

what can we do about this we all have computers-maybe if we all banded togther- any ideas, anyone? i still dont get the tax mile thing. i really have to ask people arond here if they have heard of that-slipped my mind today. what a fucked up world we live untryI wish canada wasnt so dam cold!!

[moomoo]

i understand exactly what you mean, now please check out this website:www.911truth.org sorry it didnt link up(how did you do that?Link up that Austin site? im new at this computer stuff and not a great typist either

[moomoo]

but kerry would have gone after the real terrorists. dont you find it a little wierd that bin laden is still on the loose and that they are tying binladen and saddam hussein together ?ive run in to some peole who think they are the same person! i come from a military family. i have a cousin who just made brig gen. half of his battalion is now in iraq, hes still the last ive heard, still in korea where hes been for the past 6 years. my parents met in ww2 and my father was a sea captain with the msts after the war until his death. my mom was an army nurse. and i was brought up lutheren. i think there pretty conservative. i was against Veit -nam my father and i became estranged after that until he was there for a year. he came home and sided with me and the whole anti-war movement. we are making more terrorists with this iraq war we should get out and go after the real p eople that did 911 . i dont trust bush one bit. I know Kerry personally, and i knew he would be better. in fact i toked up with Cam, his brother, back in the 70s , believe me they really are the good guys, im telling you the t

[Libertarian Toker]

Man what a scary picture but you are right. i havent seen any sign of that stuff, other than those grocery card things and not all of the big grocery stores here have them. i dont think this is happening in mass. yet either-any one else from new england area out there that has heard of this? i guess we are going into orwellian times and [probably our govtment isnt so great. i feel for all the young soldiers fighting over there-for what-and the ones that do make it back-oh, viet-nam doesnt seem so long ago-on the ligher side- wasnt paul m awesome at the stupid eh super bowl? hes DEFINATLY one of the good guys of the world

Fear is what he is looking for in a response from you. PH wants you to fear, it's how he sells his messages. It's the same tactic the government uses for things like the drug war, and the war on terror, to get support from scared people. Fear is a powerful tool when trying to get others to think and do certain things.

Paul did a fine job for half time in my opinion. I can't help but wonder at why he would do the super bowl though. Rubbing elbows with Daddy bush and clintoon seems a little odd to me. But whatever, I'm sure there is no conspiracy or tyranny involved with the super bowl and paul, ain't that right PH??? Military and sports make a great show don't they? Say, didn't nazi germany mix military and sport with the olympics? Well there you have it, paul must be a nazi if we are to use PH's logic about the past. Sorry to be so outrages, but PH's logic would have Paul as a nazi because in the past nazis mixed sport with military, and anyone involved with such a thing now is a nazi. Or at the very least nazi like. I mean all one has to do according to him is look to see what happened in the past to know whats going to happen in the future.

Toker

[Libertarian Toker]

"fact i toked up with Cam, his brother, back in the 70s , believe me they really are the good guys, im telling you the t"

Kerry the good guy was somehow going to be different and better then bushy??? How so? Was he going to end the drug war? No! Was he going to end the war on terror? No! was he going to end the war in Iraq? No! Was he from the same skulls puppy mill??? Yes! Get the real terrorist? And who might that be? I don't trust bush, or kerry. They are twins if ya ask me.

Toker

[Herbaholic00]

but kerry would have gone after the real terrorists.

Bullshit...........Bush and Kerry are both members of the skull and bones society, once a member of a society like this the goals of the society become paramount, they are baiscally the same person.

http://www.parascope.com/articles/0997/skullbones.htm

I'm not saying all the info on that site is correct but it will give you an idea of what these societys are about.



Peace

[XTC]

Hmm I dont know..... Using these Sword Bots seems more risky than helpful. Robocop anyone? T3: Rise of the Machines? What if one these bots "malfunctions" near a school and shoots a bunch of children? What then.

[pisshead]

what can we do about this we all have computers-maybe if we all banded togther- any ideas, anyone? i still dont get the tax mile thing. i really have to ask people arond here if they have heard of that-slipped my mind today. what a fucked up world we live untryI wish canada wasnt so dam cold!!

according to 'libertarian' toker, you shouldn't do anything. just let whatever happens happen.

if you're the take no action anti-free speech and free market capitalism libertarian like LT here.

[pisshead]

"fact i toked up with Cam, his brother, back in the 70s , believe me they really are the good guys, im telling you the t"

Kerry the good guy was somehow going to be different and better then bushy??? How so? Was he going to end the drug war? No! Was he going to end the war on terror? No! was he going to end the war in Iraq? No! Was he from the same skulls puppy mill??? Yes! Get the real terrorist? And who might that be? I don't trust bush, or kerry. They are twins if ya ask me.

Toker

so who's causing the fear then? me? for repeating what walmart and the RFID companies and the FEDS have said publicly what their plans are for RFID?

what exactly am i scaring him for? to do what? i'm not the one forcing RFID on everyone.

maybe it'll scare him enough to do something about it locally, which you think is bad and ineffective.

fear that forces people to do nothing while their government destroys the constitution and bill of rights is one thing. saying saddam can unleash hell on britain in 45 minutes in order to start a world war...and fear that causes action are different. if people are afraid they're going to lose their access TV, and it forces them to act...is that bad? or if HEB is going to put thumb scanners in around TX, and people in Austin refuse to accept it and fight back...you think that's bad too.

you can't tell the difference because you have no discernment.

are you sure you're a libertarian?

[Libertarian Toker]

according to 'libertarian' toker, you shouldn't do anything. just let whatever happens happen.

if you're the take no action anti-free speech and free market capitalism libertarian like LT here.

Anti-free speech????? Why do you lie so much PH? What purpose does it serve you to lie about me, or anyone for that matter? Please, by all means show me how it is that I am anti-free speech!

"according to 'libertarian' toker, you shouldn't do anything."

Can you please show me where I have ever said anything that could be taken to mean don't do anything? How is it that you can say something is according to me, when i never said anything like that? So far your post is nothing but made up BS. Do you ever wonder why you have to make things up? I mean you have to know your doing it. Then again, maybe you really don't know your doing it.

"are you sure you're a libertarian?"

Yep!

Toker

[pisshead]

sure, just explain how and why it is that i'm trying to scare people? what do i have to gain from saying what the RFID companies and the FEDS and Walmart have said they're going to do?

what's my motive for scaring people?

if i hear bob say he's going to kill martha, should i not go to martha and say, hey martha, bob said he's going to kill you...or would i be scaring her?

i'm not the one saying, give up your rights martha or bob's going to get you.

[moomoo]

[why dont you guys lighten up and smoke a big fat joint. the way your all yelling at each other ,god!it seems to me the way the country is going its a big class thing and if your not of the rich elite- which is me-and im sure most of you out there i really think that they are out to screw us really bad.the way things are going there wont be any decnt jobs left with all the budget cuts what happens when no one has a job or you have to work 2 or 3 (which it now happening to a lot of people ) shitty ones. i just heard on the news that they are outscorceing mcdonalds drive thrus! ( to states that have lower min wage) how much money do these people need anyway

[pisshead]

there will be plenty of jobs for homeland security, watching security cameras, running highway checkpoints...you'll get credits on your national id card...kinda like a 1984/brave new world...all to keep you safe from the terrorists who hate that kind of freedom.

i'll stop, i wouldn't want to scare anyone by saying what the FEDS say they have planned for us, that's public.

it's not so much about money. the FED prints the money out of nothing and then buy up the world with it. it's more about power and control. elites throughout history have done this. but you don't want to know about history, do you?

[Libertarian Toker]

"why dont you guys lighten up and smoke a big fat joint"

Thank you for your advise, it was a good bowl though, not a big fat joint. I don't like tokin paper. Damn fine weed though, and it set me lopsided for a bit.

Toker

[moomoo]

i LOVE history

[moomoo]

i just smoke from a bowl now too, mines ok but the last batch was much better, its a bitch adjusting,then hope that the next score is good. i live in NH and about ayear ago on the news they said that 20,000 Libertarians were moving to northern nh(i live on seacoast) Do you know anything about that? i know a littlebit about libertarians but not a whole lot. what basically is a Libertarian?

[pisshead]

you are truly evil. ignorance is strength.

are you an al-qaeda member? you're probably one of them 'readers' too...all knowing how to read and stuff.

[Libertarian Toker]

i just smoke from a bowl now too, mines ok but the last batch was much better, its a bitch adjusting,then hope that the next score is good. i live in NH and about ayear ago on the news they said that 20,000 Libertarians were moving to northern nh(i live on seacoast) Do you know anything about that? i know a littlebit about libertarians but not a whole lot. what basically is a Libertarian?

The Libertarian Party home page
http://www.lp.org/

NH LP home page
http://www.lpnh.org/

This is a link to what your talking about with the free state project. I hope this helps you.
http://www.freestateproject.org/

What is a Libertarian? Well, they can be many things really as each individual is different from the next. I will have to let you decide for yourself on that one. Use your search engine to find more on Libertarians if you can not get a good feel from the sites I have left links for. Explore the LP page really good, and you should understand better what a Libertarian is.

Toker

[moomoo]

who are you talking about and what do you mean by evil. and whats this about al quiada?

[moomoo]

well i took the small quiz and they said im a left liberal 40 degrees. one step down from being a libertarian. its too bad that other parties cant really take hold in this country. when it comes right down to it the smaaller parties take away votes from the 2 big ones. ive considered voting green at times but when i get to the polls its aways one of the 2. i remember when i lived in canada.they had a lot of different parties. now i think its libs/vs cons. the have a small green party and the ndp which is left but small. they dont have winner take all which i wish we didnt have i think most of europe is like canada too. even teddy roosevelt couldnt do a 3rd party. i wish it was different.

[moomoo]

well i took the quiz and im a left liberal 40 degrees. one step down from being a libertarian. i wish smaller parties had more say in this country. i remember when i lived in canada. they have a bunch of parties. they dont have winner take all . i wish we didnt have winner take all, id probably vote green then. even teddy roosevelt couldnd do a third party. most of europe i think is like canada. i guess herbaholic could tell us a lbout engands system which im sure is like canadas since canada bases there system on the english. i wonder how many parties england has and what they stand for and how much power they get within the system??

[pisshead]

who are you talking about and what do you mean by evil. and whats this about al quiada?

i was talking to you, and i was being sarcastic.

[moomoo]

OH ok its weird when your "talking" to someone on a computer. no voice sounds you know ? im just getting used to all of this(computer stuff) im a phone talker. im definaetly NOT al whatever -in fact my family is pretty military oriented. i have a cousin who went to west point and is now a brig gen .he is in korea but headed to good ol mess o patamia. half of his battalion is already over there. im a patriot not a hatriot