What exactly am I buying into?

[Ganj]

A thought occurred to me as I struggled to deny them. Can I accept Jesus Christ as the divine being he is portrayed as in various religions? And my answer came with ease--yes, I can. What exactly am I buying into?

I believe in many things. I am influenced by man on a grand scale, much greater than I am willing to accept. Then I asked myself, "what am I really buying into?"

I suppose my greatest concern is the thought that my lifestyle (what I like and what I do) would fade as I submit to the word of God. As it is, my lifestyle is not one of praise and I do not condone it to anyone--but my obsession for a hedonistic way of life has more strength that I give it credit for. I like to think that I am in total control of my life. When the truth is, no matter which way I go, which God I turn to, I am still merely following principles of someone else's beliefs. Of course, the control there is choice--my choice. So despite the path--I take it. I choose it. The way I see it: no one should be persecuted for choosing the path of self-improvement. If it will make you a better person--a righteous person--then by all means, your decision should be supported.

[jdmarcus59]

I think what you had to say was very good.but I was wondering, are you looking for a
relationship with Him, are do you just want to be a good man. PEACE

[angry nomad]

The problem I have with the bible is that their god condones slavery, genocide, oppression of women, and says gays are going to hell. The problem i have with christianity is the whole religion is based on fear of hell. I see fear in my mother's eyes when she looks at me, because she believes I might be going to hell, and that is very sad.

[snowblind]

jd if a man lives a good life, but doesnt have a relationship with god, with they still be allowed into heaven ?

just curious

snow

[jdmarcus59]

well I can only tell you what jesus said, " in less a man becomes born again he can not see the kingdom of heaven" and Ganj was talking about jesus so I refered to Him. and becoming born again is a personal relationship.

[Ganj]

No, it's not that, jd. Forgive me if my post is misleading but it just seems to me that those who deny religion are blind and confused. How can something so vital to our species be a lie? Religion is not some grand scheme to coerce you into submission. And those who think that need to realize they are submitting to a more subtle evil without even knowing it.

[Coelho]

Religion is not some grand scheme to coerce you into submission. And those who think that need to realize they are submitting to a more subtle evil without even knowing it.

AMEN, bro. I agree whole-heartedly with that.
The evil is in the eye of the beholder, so if they see evil in the religion, they are just seeing their own evil reflected, they are only seeing the evil that appears when reality passes through their evil-stained eyes.

IMPORTANT NOTE: When i say "religion" i mean rather spirituality, the belief in another realities beyond the material and physical realm, and not what is commonly called "religion", like Christianism, Buddhism, Islamism, and so.
I agree that many "religions" today are so corrupted that they are indeed schemes, for profit, submission or whatever. But it doesnt mean that all spirituality is for evil purposes, like domination, coercion, or whatever.

[mfqr]

Coelho, I agree with spirituality, and what you have said in your above post. Like you said, religion is corrupt. But I do believe in the possibility of an afterlife, but I do not think that it will be hell or heaven.

Spirituality is indeed different than religion. I don't really understand how Ganj can say that if you don't believe in religion that you are submitting to a more subtle evil. But there is some truth to it, in a way. No matter what way you go, no matter what you do, you are submitting to something. Call me paranoid, but there is a scheme in just about everything we believe in - good or evil. Our world is filled with deception, and in my opinion, if someone doesn't think that religion is deceptive, then they are oblivious to what is happening.

Although I don't really believe in God, and believe that if he does exist then he is evil, I am a spiritual person. I am very open-minded. I used to frequent Untitled Document (http://www.astralsociety.com), and practice the techniques there. Haven't done it much lately, but I do not doubt that there could be an astral plane. That, and it's very interesting, unlike the bible (in my opinion).

[Coelho]

Coelho, I agree with spirituality, and what you have said in your above post. Like you said, religion is corrupt. But I do believe in the possibility of an afterlife, but I do not think that it will be hell or heaven.

Well... as you said in the end of your post, you have no doubt about the existence of an astral plane. Me too. So, lets suppose that there is where we go when we die.
From what ive read about it (Robert Moroe - Journeys out of the body), in the astral plane we have not the "protection" of some part of our mind, so our deepest thoughts, fears, desires and such are "unburied" and comes to the surface.
So, imagine an "evil" people, who didnt knew about the existence of the astral plane, going there after death. Being an evil people, it would have all kind of fears, distrusts, hatreds, and so, which would surface. I think the mere fact of being confronted with all this negative "load" would be the Hell...
Now, imagine a "good" people going to the same place. If the people were really good, it would have overcame all this negative things, and would be full of good thoughts, of love and peace. Being confronted with all this things, what would be? I think it would be Heaven.


Spirituality is indeed different than religion. I don't really understand how Ganj can say that if you don't believe in religion that you are submitting to a more subtle evil. But there is some truth to it, in a way. No matter what way you go, no matter what you do, you are submitting to something. Call me paranoid, but there is a scheme in just about everything we believe in - good or evil. Our world is filled with deception, and in my opinion, if someone doesn't think that religion is deceptive, then they are oblivious to what is happening.

I like to think he meant spirituality, not religion, like me... And i think that the evil in not submitting to spirituality comes from the fact that (i believe) we will face the "spiritual", "astral" (or whatever) world when we die. So, if you dont believe in spirituality, you dont believe in the existence of this "another world", and so, dont prepare yourself for the day you will enter there. So, you come there unprepared, with all your negative things with you, and so dooms yourself to eternal suffering, suffering created by your own evil.


Although I don't really believe in God, and believe that if he does exist then he is evil, I am a spiritual person. I am very open-minded. I used to frequent Untitled Document (http://www.astralsociety.com), and practice the techniques there. Haven't done it much lately, but I do not doubt that there could be an astral plane. That, and it's very interesting, unlike the bible (in my opinion).

Well... i think the Bible is a practical thing. If you follow it rightly, and frees yourself from every evil, then you go to the "Heaven". It doesnt explain why, or what is this "heaven" or "hell", or the laws of the astral plane, or whatever. It only says "do it.".
It seems very authoritary, i know. But in the time the Bible was written, people were more adept to following rules without much questioning... today we ask more questions, we dont want just obey, we want to know why to obey. In my opinion, that why much people ask answers in other "religions"...
In my own case, almost every answer i obtained in another places that not the Bible were not contradictory to it, i almost always could make a link between the two. So, i could say im a "Mystical Christian" or somewhat like that...
Anyway... thats a very personal thing, of course.
BTW, thanks for the link... i will visit the site, and maybe i start to trying astral project again...
And, if you will try it too, good luck! May The Force Be With Us! :p:thumbsup:

[Ganj]

My point is that religion should not be the target of people's disparaging comments. Many of you would agree that the bible is an imperfect, contradictory text, as it is written by man through "divine inspiration." If such a thing exists is irrelevant. None of us know the true path our spirits must take, just as none of us know what worlds await us in our afterlife. Logic simply doesn't apply, and our only hope to unearth the truth is through deep, circuitous speculation. Even in thought--we are limited to what our senses have gathered. And beneath it all, the whole purpose of it all is to have an enriched life. Half my mind thinks that someone who is wholly devoted to God's Word must be a kook. Remember the pasty guy from the DaVinci Code? How much more devoted can you be? And still, even he succumbs to the weakness of flesh! I realize it's only a movie but there were puritan, God-fearing people who'd punish themselves for the mercy of God.

Now, the bible doesn't demand your blood for the sins you have committed. It asks for merely your faith. Suspicious how such an ancient text has remained convenient for a changing society, is it not?

[beachguy in thongs]

This could be because our World lost our second saviour, and missed out on a second edition.

[Nailhead]

The problem I have with the bible is that their god condones slavery, genocide, oppression of women, and says gays are going to hell. The problem i have with christianity is the whole religion is based on fear of hell. I see fear in my mother's eyes when she looks at me, because she believes I might be going to hell, and that is very sad.

lol.....what bible are you reading? My new testament doesn't have that in it lol

oppression of women? Where does it say that? It mentions how a woman should submit to their husband, but it also says a man should never talk down to his wife and honor her, how exactly does this condone oppressing women?

Gays going to hell? Where does it even talk about gays? it mentions "lustful" acts and whatnot, but doesn't clearly say "homosexuality is a sin", that's just what the republicans tell you :P

Overall, the main thing the bible is telling you to do is to love everyone, even your enemies. That was, after all, the commandment Jesus himself said was the most important of all commandments, if you aren't following that simple commandment, you aren't a true Christian.


Now to get back on the topic, I don't believe anybody can be anything other than what they are. You can lie to yourself and pretend not to be tempted by things you love, but you are only fooling yourself and living a lie. I hate quoting a cross dressing musician, but I'm always reminded of that quote from manson's song: "You cannot sedate, all the things you hate".

True Christianity doesn't come from following guidelines, but how you conduct yourself with others. Many of the people from the bible were certainly not perfect people by any means, and that alone is supposed to remind us that you don't have to be perfect to be accepted by God, it's how faithful you are.

Now I no longer consider myself a Christian, however, I have read enough of the bible to understand the main idea behind what a Christian should be. Also remember that Jesus rarely spoke about hell, and when he did it was usually referencing tossing out the bad garbage from the pure, he never played the fear game and scared people into believing him, rather, he was more focused on meeting up with the Holy father.

So basically, don't worry about minor things such as having sex, being gay, or any other minor crap that has little effect on those around you. Just try not to be an ass to others and don't be greedy is basically what the bible is telling you to do.

[delusionsofNORMALity]

How can something so vital to our species be a lie?
and why is it vital? it seems that we have made it so. aside from its moral teachings, most of spiritual ideology deals with things other than the day to day business of living. it concerns itself with our origins and our destinations and does so at the cost of our one great gift - logic. logic in the abstract seems to be all that separates us from the rest of creation and to abandon it seems such a waste.

how can it be a lie? why should it not be? the dogmas we grasp so greedily seem nothing more than a short-cut to the answers our logical minds push us toward. the creation of the universe, the design of the universe, our place in the universe; these are all questions for which most of us will never have answers. they are the ultimate questions and they are totally beyond our understanding. religions have always given us an easy answer and a way to feel more in control of our reality. for some, any answer is better than none.



Religion is not some grand scheme to coerce you into submission. And those who think that need to realize they are submitting to a more subtle evil without even knowing it.

isn't religion all about submission? giving over control of your destiny to the whims of magical beings or forces seems the ultimate form of submission. the creation of god figures (kings and emperors, as well) allows many to deny responsibility for the directions of their society and follow a predetermined path without having to think too hard about the reasons behind their actions.

good and evil are the constructs of a society attempting to control its own mad urges. is there evil in recognizing the transgressions of the church? is it evil to live a righteous life outside of the blessings of religious hypocrisy? is it evil to see the unjust elitism inherent in most religious institutions and deny the power of fairy tales over your life? i know that our religious members here will claim that there is no elitism and that their deity's blessings are given freely to all who submit to its omnipotence and perform the necessary rituals. isn't that statement alone proof enough of the true nature of their faith?

[Nochowderforyou]

The bible once stated that the world was flat, and that was proven wrong, they removed it and put it under the rug. The bible has been changed so much over the years it is hard for me accept any of it. The bible was meant to be used as a guide, not to worship.

I can safely say I am not a believer, but that doesn't mean I am not a believer as well. I have a very open mind, and the bible is very narrow minded. I prefer to find answers myself to how the earth and galaxy came about, and just because these answers aren't right in front of me, doesn't mean I am going to turn to a book and think, "oh, this must be true." Unanswered questions is what keeps me living in life to seek and find out for myself.

Dr. Seuss wrote about a Cat in a Hat. It must be true though, because afterall, it says so as it's a book. ;)

[thcbongman]

The way I see the Bible, it stories of humanity. Despair and triumph.

I think everyone has a purpose. We all go through it, struggling to find who we are, why we are here, we are we suppose to go?

The path is paved for us, through these scriptures of any religion. The experiences of this path are different, and that's why everyone fights. It's the lack of understanding of how ones embarks on this path, what is the right way, what is the wrong way.

You are simply buying into a viewpoint of struggles from a certain perspective. But we all feel them. We all experience it, just in our own way.

When you are 'buying' into something, you only buy into a perspective of those who experiences are different, but still traveling on the same path.

[Coelho]

The bible once stated that the world was flat, and that was proven wrong, they removed it and put it under the rug.

Does it really? From what i remember, the Bible was the first text to talk about the roundness of the earth, and about the fact that it floats in the space.
Another texts, from the same time, but from another religions, would say that earth was flat, supported by elephants, turtles, and such.

"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing."(Job 26:7)

"And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth." (Job 37:12)

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth (...) "(Isaiah 40:22)

[imitator]

lol.....what bible are you reading? My new testament doesn't have that in it lol.

I know it is common to dismiss the Old Testament, but it too was a book that was written by God. Just because the New Testament exists as well, doesnt mean that we should ignore everything God said and wanted us to do per the Old Testament. Its a record of how ... different... God is now in the new testament.

Personally, the Bible to me is the same as almost any religious document. Its a book that is there to give us stories on how to live a good life. Its not meant to give you exact answers... its a bunch of anecdotes and short stories to give us insight into how to be good people, and how to live a good life. It doesnt matter if any of its real, as long as it helps those who read it live a better life, then the book has served its purpose.

I personally dont worship a Christian God, or any gods at all to be frank. That doesnt mean I dont believe that they could exist, it just means I havent found any reason to follow anyone specific at this time.

I know this is going to lead to a misunderstanding, but I personally think those that follow with certainty to be... idk, a bit foolish. Now that is NOT to say that they are stupid or anything else. I just have always found it slightly foolish to believe in something with certainty, if there is no certainty available for such a thing outside of yourself. And its not even the certainties regarding jesus and God and all of that, its the certainties such as the bible being the only correct religious document, all other religions leading to you burning in hell, and that there are no other Gods ever ever ever, just the christian God.

If I had a gun to my head, and was asked to describe what I subscribe to... Id say its something like a pantheon. I have no way of disproving anything about any religion, nor any way to prove any of them. But I am ok with accepting that gods could exist, but that if a god did exist, others must exist as well. There is no reason they couldnt, but also no reason they could, so in abscence of anything to prove one way or another, I accept the possibility of either gods existing together in a pantheon setting, or that no gods exist at all.

[Nailhead]

Hmm, what if Gods were spread out throughout the universe and each one takes care of it's own section and plays a game to see which ones can kill themselves off the fastest heheh

kinda reminds me of that southpark episode where they have those little tad pool lookin things that built statues of Kenny and Cartman and started going to war with eachother...all in a little fish tank haha I guess that could be what's really going on up stairs. We are the play toys of infant Gods growing up haha

[snowblind]

turtles and elephants ?? thats disc world not the bible.

depends what version your reading but most likely the king james version which the most currently revised veriosn.

i am a spiritual person and believe in many theologies from many diferent religons, beliefs and teachings. i dont not accept one religon as being absolute as i personally see them all as being derivitive of each other and these in turn being derivitive of much older teachings.

but in turn i accept they have alot to offer. yet lacking in other respects

peace

and they are not to be taken as literaly as some people do

[jdmarcus59]

The bible once stated that the world was flat, and that was proven wrong, they removed it and put it under the rug. The bible has been changed so much over the years it is hard for me accept any of it. The bible was meant to be used as a guide, not to worship.

I can safely say I am not a believer, but that doesn't mean I am not a believer as well. I have a very open mind, and the bible is very narrow minded. I prefer to find answers myself to how the earth and galaxy came about, and just because these answers aren't right in front of me, doesn't mean I am going to turn to a book and think, "oh, this must be true." Unanswered questions is what keeps me living in life to seek and find out for myself.

Dr. Seuss wrote about a Cat in a Hat. It must be true though, because afterall, it says so as it's a book. ;)
the bible did not ever state that the world was flat

[palerider7777]

something about being luke warm does'nt sit well with me.iv'e never been one to ride the fence so to speak.theres nothin says i love u god more than being luke warm. well i don't want to say i believe in anything BUT, im not gonna say i don't either but god if u are real and i do die and go to heaven to be judged by my works i want u to know how loyal i was when i said i did'nt dismiss u or accept u either way im here now so i believe u now so see how loyal i am to u now !!!

[palerider7777]

No, it's not that, jd. Forgive me if my post is misleading but it just seems to me that those who deny religion are blind and confused. How can something so vital to our species be a lie? Religion is not some grand scheme to coerce you into submission. And those who think that need to realize they are submitting to a more subtle evil without even knowing it.

funny u should say that as most people that don't believe in god believe religion is a man made thing to make the masses submit unto there gov. but the funny thing is the christians "the ones who believes in jesus and god" were the ones being killed and punished by the govs/rulers for not going with how they wanted them to be.

and the churches were the ones that were corrupt and sold out to the rulers of the day. so for people to say it's all made up to control u really should look at the history of it all. just because a corrupt church took religion and molded it to work for them, does'nt mean the religion is bad, but the ones using it to trick people to believe something thats not meant to be read that way.

[texas grass]

i feel i am a spirtual person, but im not a religious person
i believe something created what we know today
i dont believe if your retarded/cant think for yourself or have never seen other races of humans that you will go to hell when you die because you DONT KNOW ABOUT their god, or if a baby dies BEFORE IT ACCEPTS god, it will go to hell
i believe religion is the worst thing in the world, but spirtuality is the best thing in the world

[palerider7777]

i feel i am a spirtual person, but im not a religious person
i believe something created what we know today
i dont believe if your retarded/cant think for yourself or have never seen other races of humans that you will go to hell when you die because you DONT KNOW ABOUT their god, or if a baby dies BEFORE IT ACCEPTS god, it will go to hell
i believe religion is the worst thing in the world, but spirtuality is the best thing in the world

well if u read the bible it says just that babies don't go to hell who ever said that??

[texas grass]

in the bible you have to accept god and be a true believer to go to heaven thats what i have been taught

i have never read the bible or will I, but i was brought up in a baptist background

but my family is very religious and hate how i question the bible or archealogical evidence against the bible