"We Muslims Living in America are getting sick of this crap [Archive] - Green Grass Forums

Torog

01-23-2005, 12:16 PM

Hugh Fitzgerald: "We Muslims living in America are getting sick of this crap"
jihadwatch ^ | jan 21 | Hugh Fitzgerald

Fitzgerald: "We Muslims living in America are getting sick of this crap"
Jihad Watch Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald reflects on recent Muslim complaints that they are unfairly suspected and discriminated against: "We Muslims living in America are getting sick of this crap."

There is no Muslim contribution to the American polity, not to the entire edifice of the American political system. The Shari'a flatly contradicts, in every way, the American Constitution. The economic views encouraged by Islam -- a combination of relying on booty from the conquered Unbelievers (attacked purely for that booty, beginning with the inoffensive Jewish farmers of the Khaybar Oasis), and on jizyah (or disguised "jizyah" as in the Bumiputra system in Malaysia, or the way in which non-oil Muslim states such as Egypt have managed to extract from the endlessly naive Western world tens of billions of dollars in Infidel aid, repaid not with gratitude but with ratcheting up the level of hate), and with a heavy dose of inshallah-fatalism, is completely the opposite of American notions of self-reliance, individual effort and achievement.
In social matters, Islam is as absurdly reactionary -- "honor" killings, the oppression of women, the Total Reliance on the Authority of Books Concocted between the 7th and 9th centuries (Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira) possibly in Arabia, possibly to its north, in present-day Iraq, Syria, or Jordan. which, as an ideal to be encouraged, even if it is hardly the whole story -- as it is possible to be. That some people who claim to be Muslims still function in the modern world is a tribute only to their ability to ignore much of Islam.

In intellectual matters, no sculpture, no painting of living creatures save for Mughal miniatures, that were despite, not because, of Islam, no music (hence the attacks in Algeria on those singers of Rai), no real science (weapons technology -- ah, that's a different thing).

And yet this primitive system, simply by dint of the utter foolishness, sentimentality, mental laziness, and above all ingratitude of the inhabitants of the Western world for what they have inherited as a civilizational legacy, could by force of numbers -- sheer overbreeding -- and Daâ??wa appeals to the psychically and economically marginal (always ready to try on anything that may Explain The Universe and Get Back at The System) -â?? conceivably prevail.

Look at how, in the last two days, all sorts of newspapers have fallen all over themselves with pictures of Muslims sweetly celebrated the Eid al-Adha -- in North Dakota, for god's sake, not to mention elsewhere. The word seems to have gone out to the American press: Make Islam Look Good.

And since what is Bad about Islam are the actual tenets, and those, assimilated into the brain, cannot be shown in pictures -- though the murderous results of Islamic beliefs, and the results, too, of Islamic practices over 1400 years, can be seen in the reduction of ancient Mesopotamia, and its once-entirely non-Muslim population to what is now an almost entirely Muslim population -- like what you see? would you like America or Europe to turn into that, over time? it won't take 1400 years, but less than a century to throw out all of Western civilization because "we all want the same thing" and "we all share the faith of Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar" and...oh good god, fill in the rest of the nonsense yourself, culled from the paper, or some idiotic NPR news program, or something on the Lord Haw Haw broadcasts from the BBC, where the likes of Judy Swallow or Robin Lustig, marionetted from above by the sinister John Simpson (#3 at Bush House), have created a special BBC house blend of anti-Americanism, antisemitism, and therefore, of course, islamophilia, that has by degrees helped to mentally disarm tens of millions of listeners.

No, it is we Infidels who are getting "sick of this crap."

Torog

01-23-2005, 12:20 PM

"No, it is we Infidels who are getting "sick of this crap." "

That's a big 10-4 ! I wouldn't trust any muslim at this point in history..nor as far as I could throw one-which ain't very far-with my bad back.

juggalo420

01-23-2005, 12:40 PM

^racist redneck

Libertarian Toker

01-23-2005, 01:00 PM

^racist redneck

Islam is not a race, it's a religion, and Torog is not a redneck, he's a long haired country boy. Only two words and you managed to be wrong with both of them.

Toker

Torog

01-23-2005, 01:11 PM

^racist redneck
Howdy juggalo420,

That may well be-however,at least I know who the enemies of Freedom and civilization are..and right now-that's Islam and muslims. Meanwhile,you'll still be sticking to your bleedin heart,political correctness crap-when a muslim will come up to you-and slash your throat..with a smile..and a Allah Akbar !

You can live under sharia law-if you want and pay the infidel tax-but not me..I will fight to the last drop of my blood-to stop the muslim horde..as the Christian Crusaders did once before-when civilization was in danger of extinction,at the hands of the muslim horde.

Have a good one...Torog :D

Torog

01-23-2005, 01:15 PM

Islam is not a race, it's a religion, and Torog is not a redneck, he's a long haired country boy. Only two words and you managed to be wrong with both of them.

Toker
Howdy LT,

Thanx for them kind words..

Say-did ya git my last pm to ya over at Marihemp ?

Have a good one...Torog :D

NowhereMan

01-23-2005, 02:45 PM

^racist redneck

why is it that he dont see that remark is like the equivelent of'calling him a nigger and meaning it not like "my nigga" as in homey
and is as racist as any remark there is out there
(and no im calling you that dude so chill before ya get all riled up on me)
racism is bullshit
he said as much its crap to be racist
so please stop practicing it and maybe ,just fucking maybe it one day die out.

that is what you want is it not to have no niggers and crackers and towel heads and spick and gooks and whatever stupid fucking name people name those of other colors
we are all just human beings that are simply different by culture and looks and traits and its all DNA,none is better by color or race,
NONE

and that my friend is just my opinion
peace

Libertarian Toker

01-23-2005, 03:55 PM

Yes I did get the PM. I tried to write one back and it got erased on me and I didn't feel like doing it agian just then. I hate it when that happens. I'll get it in the mail monday or tuesday.

Toker

GHoSToKeR

01-23-2005, 05:21 PM

Torog, youve done it again.. and 'it' is nothing to be proud of :(

D3STRUCT

01-23-2005, 09:30 PM

typical american view on islam...its nothing to be proud of...the only enemies of Freedom and civilization is america thinking they can fucking do what they want well they can't an soon enough america will pay the price for being a bully...an too right in my view!..god save REAL americans when korea comes to kick your ass!

Libertarian Toker

01-24-2005, 12:48 AM

GHoSToKeR

01-24-2005, 01:45 AM

LT, why are you sticking up for Torog's blatant racism/prejudism/whatever-the-fuck-you-wanna-call-it?

F L E S H

01-24-2005, 05:08 AM

GHoSToKeR

01-24-2005, 05:32 AM

I'm with you on this one, F L E S H

NowhereMan

01-24-2005, 08:25 AM

LT, why are you sticking up for Torog's blatant racism/prejudism/whatever-the-fuck-you-wanna-call-it?

i assume you think thinks its ok to call folks who live in certian parts
rednecks, and think that aint racist remark?
its as racist as anybody using the name nigger to describe a black man
when you use it as that wanna be a freak uses it

screw all them that think that way and it got shit to do with ya skin
its ya dam attitude towards anyone not your color,
you dont like whites,,,dont expect them like you

so i guess only whites can be racist in your eyes?
this reverse racism is just approved by too many]
oh well back to my jiont

Libertarian Toker

01-24-2005, 12:16 PM

LT, why are you sticking up for Torog's blatant racism/prejudism/whatever-the-fuck-you-wanna-call-it?

Why do you guys hate Torog? People say all kinds of wierd crap about him, and you say nothing except why do I stick up for him. Why do you stick up for people that declare war on democracy? I guess it is OK to be prejudice, just not against muslims, right? I suggest you do away with your own prejudice before condeming another for theirs. Unfortunetly islam is a violent religion, and they do spread hate, at their congragations. Not all of them do, but quite a few do. Yes, other religions do it also. Tell me Ghost, what good does it do to post a prejudice saying to protest a prejudice article? Hate will not cure hate.

Torog is a friend. I don't care much for the article, and I was actualy going to say something about it to him, but changed my mind after the redneck remark. I don't have to hate him, or bash him, to dissagree with him. Same as with anyone, on any subject. I don't hate because someone thinks different then I do.

Toker

F L E S H

01-24-2005, 03:03 PM

Unfortunetly islam is a violent religion

Let's assume for a minute that you're right. But isn't Christianty also a violent religion? It works both ways. You'd be surprise at how many people think it's ok to kill muslims because 'it says so' in the Bible, when God tells the Jews that it's ok for them to kill the Philistines and what not.

Bu the fact remains, Islam is as violent as Christianity, or rather potentially violent. It is violent in the hands of those who misinterpret it the exact same way Christianity is.

Anyone remember Timothy McVeigh?

Torog

01-24-2005, 03:37 PM

This is by far, Torog, the worst thing you have posted on this site. I used to think we just disagreed but were both intelligent, respectful people. I'm sorry to say my view has diminished a little.... :mad:
Howdy FLESH,

I re-read the article,and what it says is essentially true..I realize,that it's hard for you to grasp the reality of this situation-because to do so,would acknowledge that the situation is more dire-than you realized. I have experienced sharia law first hand-in Saudi,and it wasn't pretty-especially when it's backed up by machine-gun toting,ceremonial dagger and sword carrying muslim guards. You do not seem to understand the depth of hatred towards us infidels from the muslims,your liberal psyche believes that you must make friends with everyone - and ignore the crimes that they've committed-you seek to appease the terrorists and muslims,in the hope that they will be your friends and grant you mercy.

As for Christians being violent,the only ones having to commit violence,are those who are under attack from muslims..like the Christians in Sudan and Darfur. 99 percent of all Christians are peaceful and seek to help others-not strap on a bomb belt and kill those who refuse to convert.

My little sister,is a Christian missionary and she has done nothing but help folks-there ain't a violent bone in her body..to claim that Christians are as violent as muslims,is not true..and offends me.

To call me a rascist redneck-is offensive as well-especially when the democrappers are being as rascist as possible,towards Condi and Powell,whose achievements should be lauded and used as role models by Black teachers for their Black students. I'm very proud of their achievements as individuals and American citizens..how can that be-if I'm a rascist redneck ?

Have a good one...Torog

Libertarian Toker

01-24-2005, 04:34 PM

[QUOTE=F L E S H]Let's assume for a minute that you're right.QUOTE]

I am right, islam is violent. Just because christians are also, or have been in the past, doesn't excuse muslims for their campain of violent acts now, as you seem to think it does. If an apple is red, and I say it is a red apple, is that wrong? No, not all muslims are violent, but the religion does produce the hate that starts the violence at it's congragations and schools. Ignoring the truth won't make it go away. Your not only excusing muslims, your hiding from the violent nature of that religion by trying to change the focos to christian violence. You can not deny that islam breeds violence. If you do deny that, then you must deny that christians breed violence also. I don't think it is ok for christians to kill muslims, or muslims to kill christians. It's maddness if you ask me. Both would wipe the other from the planet because of a god that is not even real. To me that is rather stupid. You may need to read up on Mo. He was a theaf and a terrorist. He is the one that inspires the terror and violence. Tell me Flesh, were does Jesus inspire others to hate?

Toker

Nullific

01-24-2005, 05:06 PM

There are some muslims in classes of mine, decent people.
Islam extremists are no better, or worse, than christian extremists. Maybe they have some other reason to be pissed, like that we destroyed/corrupted their holy land.
Example: http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=174
http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=4429
http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=3802

We can agree that the "racist redneck" comment was pushing it since we can't blame the entire state of Texas for Torogs post, my friend Juggalo was probably just tripping, in reality hes a nice person...sort of.

The article aside another thing I would like to bring up is:

your liberal psyche believes that you must make friends with everyone
Why the hell is it that anybody who has any disagreement with what you post is dubbed by you simply a liberal? Time and time again I have wondered, and believe even asked you. Somebody disagrees with you, there is nothing indicative of their other political views but because they disagreed with you automatically they are liberal, communist, socialist. What exactly is wrong with liberalism or socialism to begin with? (I wont get into communist since it was never fully established.)

F L E S H

01-24-2005, 09:58 PM

Torog:
First and foremost, I never called anyone a racist redneck, because I'm not the insulting type. Second, don't assume you know anything about my liberal psyche. I don't feel the need the make friends with everyone. I feel the need to treat everybody equally initially and build relationships. I feel the need to correct people when they make gross generalizations about cultures they don't understand.

You say you've been to Saudi Arabia, and I'll tell you this: the only thing worse than making assumptions about people you've never met is making assumptions about people you've barely met. I many muslim friends, some were born here, some immigrated. None of them hate the US (well, not before Bush, anyway...) and none of them believe Islam to be a violent religion.

The only christians to violent are those attacked? Violence does not limit itself to acts. Words can cause far more terror and hatred and pain than actions.

You know, here's problem #1: Americans such as yourself seem to think there's only 2 sides to everything. Just because I don't like what you're saying, doesn't mean I'm supporting the other side. I denounce hatred and misinformation on all sides. If I could talk to one of the terrorrists (assuming I wouldn't seriously injure him first), I'd argue with him a million times more than I do with you.

I don't support propaganda, I support the truth. The articles you consistently put up here are pure propaganda, and are half-truths. That's what's the most frustrating. They always start with something that might be true but then don't reveal the entire concept. Let's take Libertarian Toker's example of the red apple. Sure it's red, nobody can deny that. But it is completely red? Is there a green spot? Is it big, small, round, oval? Is it smooth, bruised, thick or thin skinned?

I'm far from being a bleeding heart liberal. Think hard before you throw that out.

F L E S H

01-24-2005, 10:03 PM

Libertarian Toker:
You do the same thing Torog does. Just because I said Christianity is violent, doesn't mean I don't think Islam CAN be violent.

What I'm saying is that Islamic terrorrists are about as religiously correct as David Koresh. They are equally disturbed and both dangerously misinterpret the Bible or the Koran.

Maybe you should read something written about Islam that is NOT written by an American. Don't you realize that politicians and their journalists will tell you exactly what you want to hear? So many people sadly think as you do, and the media constantly reinforces their view by presenting it as fact. Think outside the box, buddy, you might be surprised at what you find out...

juggalo420

01-24-2005, 10:45 PM

torog hurts my head, so i called him a racist redneck, i doubt he just hates musslims im sure he hates all arabs. and if you cant tolerate someone different than yourself and believes different things than you, you are a redneck, thats what the definition is in my book.

austinpowers

01-24-2005, 10:57 PM

hey torog, dont feel bad just because they are inferring that you are a facist, i can think of plenty great leaders who were facists, Hitler, Mussolini, Bush... its not really a bad thing

GHoSToKeR

01-25-2005, 12:17 AM

"Tell me Ghost, what good does it do to post a prejudice saying to protest a prejudice article?"

I remember asking why youre sticking up for this kind of thing, I dont rememeber making any prejudice remarks.

Secondly, I dont think any kind of prejudism is right, and no, I dont hate Torog, I just hate some of the things he says. Trust me, if somebody came on here saying "All Christians are evil, murderous, blah blah blah" I would disagree with it, also. But they didnt.

Thirdly, why is everyone saying I called Torog a redneck? I think Torog's an alright guy, I just dont like the fact that he hates who hes told to hate, and does it with a passion. Hes probably never even met a muslim, but he hates them all. Hes definately never needed an abortion, but hes against the idea of abortions. He probably has no homosexual friends, and yet he believes theres a big homosexual conspiracy going on. He probably hates black people, jewish people, and people with large feet, too. He needs to start thinking for himself.

GHoSToKeR

01-25-2005, 12:19 AM

"your liberal psyche believes that you must make friends with everyone"

Damn. I'd love to make friends with everyone if I could, and im fucking proud of it. In fact, I cant think of a single reason why anyone WOULDNT wanna make friends with everyone.

Nullific

01-25-2005, 12:51 AM

^Because its easier to blow them up.

Libertarian Toker

01-25-2005, 01:06 AM

[QUOTE=F L E S H]Libertarian Toker:QUOTE]

"Just because I said Christianity is violent, doesn't mean I don't think Islam CAN be violent."

I didn't say what your implying I said or did. I said you were excusing islams violence, not claiming it didn't exist.

"What I'm saying is that Islamic terrorrists are about as religiously correct as David Koresh."

Naw, what you seemed to be saying was muslims are not so bad if ya compare them to christians. You parade your ignorence of muslims, and then do the very thing you claim Torog should not do, and that is to think you know the whole because you have met a few. I don't know about you, but in my book living in a country that is run by islam kind of spanks having a few muslim buddys in Canada.

"They are equally disturbed and both dangerously misinterpret the Bible or the Koran."

Yep, that's true enough.

"Maybe you should read something written about Islam that is NOT written by an American."

Maybe you should not assume I haven't.

" Don't you realize that politicians and their journalists will tell you exactly what you want to hear?"

I understand that a lot of people will do that. It is not confined to politicians and their journalists.

"So many people sadly think as you do"

And what is it that I think?

"and the media constantly reinforces their view by presenting it as fact."

Sorry, but it truely is a fact that islam is violent. Good grief man, wake up and smell the folgers. It's not the media, it's the muslims doing the reinforcing. If islam is not part of the violence, why does the majority not denounce the terroristic eliment in their ranks that use violence? Islam uses violence. If you can't see that, your blind.

"Think outside the box, buddy, you might be surprised at what you find out."

You may want to practice what you preach a little. Propaganda is not limited to just the right. You sound like so many others I have discussed this with. That leads me to believe that your all eating from the same dish. Mind control??? Propagation??? Who is and who isn't effected by it? Do you think your not? I can see the propagation in your words the same as you can it in Torog's. So what does that mean? Am I wrong, and you really do hold the actual truth?

Toker

Libertarian Toker

01-25-2005, 01:15 AM

Your right ghost, I mixed you up with the other guy. My mistake. I apologize for that mix up.

"He probably hates black people, jewish people, and people with large feet, too. He needs to start thinking for himself."

Then you go on to say some hatefull shit like that. Why would you make acusations against someone you don't know are true if you want to make friends with everyone and your proud of it? I happen to know that he doesn't hate his girl friend.

Toker

GHoSToKeR

01-25-2005, 03:21 AM

LT, you know exactly what I meant by what I said. Most of Torogs opinions come from either the Bush administration or his religion.

F L E S H

01-25-2005, 06:42 AM

You got me totally wrong, LT. First of all, as I said in another post, I'm in no way a left-winger, except on social issues. Second of all, yes, I do like to believe that I'm somewhat above petty propaganda, and I'm able to recognize it from all parts of the political spectrum, I don't really care what you think about me. Thirdly, I never said muslims aren't so bad when you compare them to christians. I said that Islam is a religion that is not more violent, or less, than Christianity. Don't take my words out of context.

You seem so sure of yourself when you say that Islam is inherently violent. I wanna know where you got this opinion from, because your argument for everything boils down to "because I say so." If you're gonna convince people, you gotta do better than that.... I've been known to change my mind when I'm thoroughly convinced :D.

Libertarian Toker

01-25-2005, 11:15 AM

"You got me totally wrong, LT."

Maybe, maybe not.

"First of all, as I said in another post, I'm in no way a left-winger, except on social issues."

Yep, and that's kind of a problem since I said nothing about left or right. You are not using preprogramed remarks are you? How can you be in no way a lefty, except on social issues? That would mean that you do swing to the left in some ways. What is not a social issue?

"Second of all, yes, I do like to believe that I'm somewhat above petty propaganda, and I'm able to recognize it from all parts of the political spectrum"

And that's a problem also. Tell me Flesh, what is propaganda, and who uses it? It's been my expirence that those that think they are not, and can not, be propagated are usually the one that are taken in the most by one side or the other of any given issues propaganda. You didn't answer directly, so I will have to assume your answer means you think you hold the truth. Where do you get your truth from Flesh?

"I don't really care what you think about me."

Sure ya do! Why else would you try to explain yourself to me?

"Thirdly, I never said muslims aren't so bad when you compare them to christians. I said that Islam is a religion that is not more violent, or less, than Christianity. Don't take my words out of context."

You go first on the context thing! BTW, what I said was, "what you "seemed" to be saying". That is what it seemed like you were saying to me. Your kind of a picky one ain't ya?

"You seem so sure of yourself when you say that Islam is inherently violent."

I am sure of myself. Are you unsure of yourself?

"I wanna know where you got this opinion from, because your argument for everything boils down to "because I say so."

I thought you didn't care? Oh well, I guess you do care after all. I get my opinion from me. I don't get my opinon from others. I am the only source for my opinion. Who is it that tells you what your opinion is?

"If you're gonna convince people, you gotta do better than that"

I don't do this to change other peoples minds, I do it to change mine.

Toker

Libertarian Toker

01-25-2005, 11:25 AM

"LT, you know exactly what I meant by what I said. Most of Torogs opinions come from either the Bush administration or his religion."

Since he doesn't think like you, you think it's cool to call him racist? Is that what you meant? When you say someone "probable" hates blacks and jews and the like, what is it your doing? I see clearly what it is your doing, I wonder if you do?

Toker

F L E S H

01-25-2005, 04:01 PM

GHoSToKeR

01-25-2005, 06:01 PM

You're right, LT, Torog doesn't think like me. I dont spread hate and fear and anger. The only thing I hate is blind prejudism. Period.

pisshead

01-25-2005, 07:32 PM

You're funny. You ask me "where do I get my truth from" yet when I ask you, you won't tell me. I never said I didn't care, in fact, I'm extremely curious about where you hear these things, since you act as if you hold the key to this argument.... Don't keep it to yourself, share the knowledge! I told you, I can change my mind, if your case is good enough. Nobody tells me what my opinions are, I try to see the facts, and I form my own conclusions.

good luck with that. he's the same way to me. nothing i provide is ever good enough (even when it's congressman, congressional reports, executive orders, recognizing spin, articles from around the world, ap, upi, reuters, legislation, etc...), yet it's like pulling teeth to find out his hidden knowledge that refutes everything and is propaganda free...

toker's all talk. he can ask a thousand questions, but can't answer any himself. check out his responses to my posts on the politics board, it's always semantical or nonsensical, and never addresses any of the issues. he is a good double thinker though.

Libertarian Toker

01-25-2005, 07:37 PM

You're right, LT, Torog doesn't think like me. I dont spread hate and fear and anger. The only thing I hate is blind prejudism. Period.

So what your saying is that your blindly prejudice against people that probably are prejudice??? If someone probably hates, you feel the need to hate also? Is that what your saying? What are you spreading when you claim Torog is probably racist? Hate? Fear? Anger?

Toker

Libertarian Toker

01-25-2005, 07:48 PM

I do hold the key! Didn't you know? So, you act as if you hold the key, and I act as if I do. Now what? Who does hold that key man? Is it you, or is it me? Maybe it's neither one? The evidence is all over that proves islam is violent. Why do you ignore it? You want me to change your mind for you. I say change it yourself.

Toker

pisshead

01-25-2005, 07:55 PM

i know muslims, they aren't violent. i know christians who aren't violent as well. there are violent muslims and there are violent christians.

i could care less what people half way around the world are doing when my republic is being dismantled and a technological dictatorship is emerging. why should we cheer on the destruction of our country while our great officials claim to want to spread freedom all around the world?

evil muslims didn't pass the patriot act and give us homeland security and the new freedom initiative and national id cards. they didn't force homeland security to hire ex stasi and KGB chiefs to work out our internal passport system. they didn't force the put options on the airlines or call people government 'officials' and tell them not to fly...

but wait, i forgot, i'm supposed to be looking at the other hand...

GHoSToKeR

01-26-2005, 01:58 AM

So what your saying is that your blindly prejudice against people that probably are prejudice??? If someone probably hates, you feel the need to hate also? Is that what your saying? What are you spreading when you claim Torog is probably racist? Hate? Fear? Anger?

Toker
LOL

If somebody comes out with blatantly racist or prejudist remarks, then calling them out for what they are does not classas prejudism. And even if being anti-racist IS prejudism, then i'm definately prejudist in that respect. Stop trying to twist my words, because I dont care enough to argue with you anymore.

Delta9

01-26-2005, 04:18 AM

yea we'll not a single muslim on this planet would even turn their head if I was lying bleeding to death in the street.

F L E S H

01-26-2005, 08:09 AM

Libertarian Toker

01-26-2005, 12:11 PM

Prove it to me. Right now. No more talk, I wanna see the evidence!

Your kind of demanding ain't ya? What, are you unable to find opposing facts and opinions on your own? I guess you must be. Start your search in the Sudan. See if you can figure out whats been going on there for a long time. We can move on to other things like islams treatment of woman, slaves, and other such things when your done in the Sudan. Try to keep in mind that we are not comparing islams violence to christian violence, only that islam is violent. Just because others have done it does not excuse the violence. If your going to close your eyes and not look for yourself, then you will never see anything for yourself. You will only see what others show you. That seems to be what you want. Let's talk some about that Van gogh guy in Amsterdam. The people that targeted him did it for what reason? Because of what he said about their religion! I'm sure you will say that was just the act of one person, but it wasn't. He was connected to a lot of other people bent on violence. Guess what the connection is? There is a lot of organized violence by muslims, and it seems to start in the church. Islam produces violence. Over all the years it has been around, violence has been it's way. BTW, since your going to be so demanding of me, then I feel I should make a demand of my own. Prove to me right now that islam is not a violent religion? Right now, show me what makes it so you think islam is so peacefull and non-violent. Without talking, prove your peacefull religion really is peacefull! I wanna see your evidence. You have complained that I do not give evidence, where is your evidence?

Toker

Herbaholic00

01-26-2005, 01:27 PM

Talking about Sudan................... http://www.gnn.tv/articles/article.php?id=1093

Peace

juggalo420

01-26-2005, 01:29 PM

Your kind of demanding ain't ya? What, are you unable to find opposing facts and opinions on your own? I guess you must be. Start your search in the Sudan. See if you can figure out whats been going on there for a long time. We can move on to other things like islams treatment of woman, slaves, and other such things when your done in the Sudan. Try to keep in mind that we are not comparing islams violence to christian violence, only that islam is violent. Just because others have done it does not excuse the violence. If your going to close your eyes and not look for yourself, then you will never see anything for yourself. You will only see what others show you. That seems to be what you want. Let's talk some about that Van gogh guy in Amsterdam. The people that targeted him did it for what reason? Because of what he said about their religion! I'm sure you will say that was just the act of one person, but it wasn't. He was connected to a lot of other people bent on violence. Guess what the connection is? There is a lot of organized violence by muslims, and it seems to start in the church. Islam produces violence. Over all the years it has been around, violence has been it's way. BTW, since your going to be so demanding of me, then I feel I should make a demand of my own. Prove to me right now that islam is not a violent religion? Right now, show me what makes it so you think islam is so peacefull and non-violent. Without talking, prove your peacefull religion really is peacefull! I wanna see your evidence. You have complained that I do not give evidence, where is your evidence?

Toker
your fucking ignorant, how can you label a whole group of people evil cause the actions of a few.

the koran has no more violence in it than the old testament, death was the punishment for almost everything in leviticus.

who started the crusades, the holocaust, okc bombing, the inquisision, salem witch trials. christians did, so is it fair for me to label all christians as violent.

F L E S H

01-26-2005, 02:47 PM

who started the crusades, the holocaust, okc bombing, the inquisision, salem witch trials. christians did, so is it fair for me to label all christians as violent.

LT said he didn't want comparisons of how Christianity is also violent, I guess because it weakens his arguments, right?

Start your search in the Sudan. See if you can figure out whats been going on there for a long time.

What I see in the Sudan is a civil war which uses Islam as an excuse.

There is a lot of organized violence by muslims, and it seems to start in the church. Islam produces violence

That is the faultiest logic I have seen in a long time. Have you noticed which countries are the ones that harbour terrorist organizations and are generally 'anti-American'? Do you know anything about the history of the Middle-East? Fact is, this kind of violence did not start until the British and the French decided to set up colonies and create states that didn't exist before, like Syria, Iraq, Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. Of course, today they have 'independence', but they aren't really independent at all, and the damage done by colonialism and imperialism will take years to heal. These people are oppressed, both by their own governments and the American government.

Did you know that before the age of Empires in the 18th-19th centuries, Middle-Eastern society was quite tolerant of other people practicing their religion, including Christianity and Judaeism? There were no suicide bombings, no killings, nothing of that sort.

How can you label an entire religion as being violent when throughout its 1,400-year history it has been one of the most tolerant out there? The events of the second half of the 20th century do not change the fact the Islam is NOT violent, but terrorists will use it as a means to co-opt other people to make them believe that their struggle is sanctioned by Allah.

That is my argument. I still don't know what yours is, besides "I say so."

Libertarian Toker

01-26-2005, 03:58 PM

"how can you label a whole group of people evil cause the actions of a few"

I'm not doing that. I am labeling the religion as starting the violence in the people. The people would not be as violent without the religion. Same with christians I would imagine.

"the koran has no more violence in it than the old testament"

Well that's quite a bit, is it not? So by comparing them your saying that the koran does contain violence?

"so is it fair for me to label all christians as violent"

Not really, but it is ok to say that christianity produces violence in humans. Religion in general causes violence. Islam is not the peace as is claimed it is. It is terror, hate, deception and yes, violence!

Toker

Libertarian Toker

01-26-2005, 04:16 PM

F L E S H

01-26-2005, 04:18 PM

Goddamn it, Islam is NOT violence! Don't you understand the concpet of using something to get people to support you? Terrorism has NOTHING to do with Islam, except superficially. It's an excuse, a scapegoat, a way to get more people to join their cause. It's the oldest trick int he book, and everybody's done it at one time or another in history.

F L E S H

01-26-2005, 04:22 PM

You know what, you have absolutely no concept of history and cause and effect. If you can't understand the concept of using religion as a rallying cry, as a means to an end, if you can't see beyond the surface of world events, then I'm sad for you, because you will never be able to understand what's REALLY going on anywhere.

Nothing is what it seems to be on the surface, absolutely nothing. You insist on using the logic of a 5-year-old "terrorists are muslims therefore all muslims are violent."

GHoSToKeR

01-26-2005, 04:26 PM

Libertarian Toker

01-26-2005, 04:26 PM

I'm talking about violence. Islam gives the extremist the motivation to kill in the name of their god. Islam creates violence. Whether it be a few, or a great many makes no difference to me, it still creates violence. In the name of allah no doubt.

Toker

GHoSToKeR

01-26-2005, 04:27 PM

So does Christianity, soccer, and alcohol. Whats your point?

F L E S H

01-26-2005, 04:28 PM

"That is my argument. I still don't know what yours is, besides "I say so"

That's it? That is all your argument has? No wonder you think islam is not violent. You had better find out a little more, you seem to be lacking in the info department when it comes to islam. You have no evidence at all, and it looks as if you to are relying on the "I told you so" tactic your blaiming me for. You have not convinced me that islam is not violent with your arguement.

Toker

What more do you want? That's more than YOU can give me, because you don't know jack. You still haven't supported your view with any evidence. What I wrote before is not everything that helped me make up my mind, it's just a part. I'm a historian, I look to History for explanations, and it usually works.

Fact is, modern civilization as we know it is deeply indebted to the Islamic cultures of the Middle-East because they preserved the knowledge and philosophy of ancient Greeks and Romans, which were destroyed in the West by fanatical Christian movements that wanted to destroy everything deemed 'non-Christian'.

What's happening today is a direct consequence of colonial rule and American imperialism, and NOTHING to do with religion. If you cn't comprehend that, that's your problem. I'm through wasting my time on this topoc.

Libertarian Toker

01-26-2005, 04:33 PM

LT, Islam is no more violent that Christianity. Just as you get Christiam extremists, you get Islamic extremists. People use this to get people to do horrible things sometimes, but its not always the fault of the religion. Surely you agree with that?

I'm an athiest. Religion is nothing but mind control to me no matter what the religions name. If the US goes off to war, does it send everyone? What happens when islam goes off to war, does it send everyone? Creating the illusion of wanting peace while stoking violence is not an unheard of tactic. Religion has been corrupted from it's inseption by man. All the more reason to think Islam is violence prone. Even their prophet Mo was violent.

Toker

Libertarian Toker

01-26-2005, 04:34 PM

So does Christianity, soccer, and alcohol. Whats your point?

That it is not a peacefull religion as some seem to think it is.

Toker

Libertarian Toker

01-26-2005, 04:38 PM

"What more do you want?"

I want to see who gave you your opinion!!!

"You still haven't supported your view with any evidence."

Where is yours?

"I'm a historian, I look to History for explanations, and it usually works."

Another one living in the past. Great!

"What's happening today is a direct consequence of colonial rule and American imperialism, and NOTHING to do with religion."

You could't be more wrong. It has everything to do with religion. Your right, you are wasting your time if you want me to believe islam is totally innocent.

Toker

F L E S H

01-26-2005, 04:48 PM

It has NOTHING to do with religion. Just as the Crusades had very little to do with religion (90% politics), just as the Reformation had almost nothing to do with religion (95% politics, Martin Luther didn't want to give money to the pope in Rome, Henry VIII wanted a freaking divorce), just as the Inquisition had nothing to do with religion (again, politics), just as missionaries in the Americas and Africa had nothing to do with religion (politics, they wanted to make the indigenous populations more subservient to European rule)

You know, you can call me whatever you want, but I take offense to you saying that I live in the past because I'm a historian. Again, you miss the deeper significance and only see what lies on the surface. Don't you understand that by finding out what causes the status quo in the world today, we can help solve it? History is extremely relevant to the present, and I would go so far as to say that you haven't studied much history at, if any, written outsidde the sphere of influence of your government.

braindead

01-26-2005, 08:37 PM

Islam is not a race, it's a religion, and Torog is not a redneck, he's a long haired country boy. Only two words and you managed to be wrong with both of them.

Toker

Youre a racist too, a fat white racist.

braindead

01-26-2005, 08:43 PM

"god save REAL americans when korea comes to kick your ass!"

How are they going to "come" kick our ass? Are they flying, or taking a boat trip. Do you really believe NK would stand any kind of a chance against the US military? If you do, then you might want to re think that for a bit. NK would not last any longer then Iraq did. We would walk over them just as easy as we did Iraq's military. What is it about NK that makes you think they can make the US pay a price? Are their troops and pilots battle hardened? Are they well equiped? Well funded? Do they have the ability to project their power to anywhere in the world? What may be right and wrong for the US is not importent in this claim of NK kicking the USA's ass. What is importent is the falseness of the statement you have made and what it means that you would do that. Deny it all you want, but what that statement by you says is that you don't care for the truth, you just hate the US. The truth is that the US would kick NK's ass rather quickly. Why do you lie to yourself? Does it do something for your ego to bash the US with lie's to yourself?

Toker

The US military is full of the most inbred backwards hillbillies the world has ever known, i cheer every time one goes home in a bag. One less piece of human garbage. In the america vs islam i am cheering for the muslims. And you opinion means nothing fatso, you said the war would be a calkwalk, you think the americans are seen as liberators. Fuck you just wrote here that america won in iraq. Was it because its not on TV anymore, you think its over? The american military are baby killing cowards, NK would whoop your ass, like you lost every other war you tried to go alone, including iraq. You have no heart, thats the problem. Go get that high school diploma.
krackbaby

GHoSToKeR

01-27-2005, 03:35 AM

Iraw is being occupied by America. Iraqs government have been put in place by the American government, but alot of Iraqi people dont want America there, so they fight back in any way they can, ie, kidnappings, suicide bombings, shootings, etc.

Im not condoning it, because its horrible, but why is a suicide bombing on an American convoy any worse than an American plane bombing a residential complex in Iraq? Christianity and Islam can both be as violent as eachother, it just depends whos holding the strings, if you get what I mean. Man, I hate religion and politics :(

Libertarian Toker

01-27-2005, 04:12 AM

"You know, you can call me whatever you want, but I take offense to you saying that I live in the past because I'm a historian."

Can I? I haven't called you anything yet have I? What ever shall I call you? History is great, but you won't find all your answers in dusty old thought. Some thought needs to be new to keep up with the times. Why would you take offence at me saying you live in the past? Seems to me that your a little sensitive in some areas.

"It has NOTHING to do with religion."

It has EVERYTHING to do with religion. You claim I only see what's on the surface, and then you say things like the crusades had almost nothing to do with religion. You may need to study up on that some more.

"I would go so far as to say that you haven't studied much history at, if any, written outsidde the sphere of influence of your government."

You know I know several people from Canada and they all seem to have the same "I am smarter then you" thing going for them. What makes you so much more of a historian then me? Do you have any idea what I have studied? No, you do not. Yet here you are making your claims anyway. Do you do that when your figuring out your opinion on everything, or is that reserved for just me.

You seem to think religion is completely free of any violence. Your wrong man. Religion is the root cause of a lot of the worlds violence past and present. I'm sorry you can't see it. I guess it is easier to blaim the US for it. I suggest you reread some of the history of the middle east if you truely believe the violence there started because of US imperialism. What is so hard about seeing the violence in religion for you? Is it really so far fetched for me to think that religions cause violence? When a man kills in the name of his god, what has influenced that person to kill? Religion has. Islam is no different then christianity as you have said many times. They are both violent by nature. Islam, at this point in time, is using terror for it's own reasons. It's not just one or two lone wolfs out there causing problems as you would like me to believe. It is a world wide network of terror and violence, with islam being the guiding hand. So when the muslim is cutting the head off a contractor, it's not really religious violence to yell god is great while chopping, it's American imperialism? I see! Thanks for the history lesson oh wise and all knowing one. What will you treat me too next, a run down of how hitler didn't really kill jews? Maybe a thrilling story of how Japan never really attacked pearl harbor?

Toker

Libertarian Toker

01-27-2005, 04:21 AM

Iraw is being occupied by America. Iraqs government have been put in place by the American government, but alot of Iraqi people dont want America there, so they fight back in any way they can, ie, kidnappings, suicide bombings, shootings, etc.:(

Is that why they are attacking their own people on a daily basis? It is not the US that the terrorist hate, it is the thought of their religion losing power that is their diving concern. The sunni have been in power for a long time, and they don't want to give it up. Any way they can is a lame arguement. Them killing and terrorizing their own is not to remove the US, but to terrorize the people of Iraq. Religion, politics, and violence are having a fuck fest over there. I wonder what the offspring will look like?

Toker

F L E S H

01-27-2005, 05:39 AM

"It has EVERYTHING to do with religion. You claim I only see what's on the surface, and then you say things like the crusades had almost nothing to do with religion. You may need to study up on that some more. "

I'm sorry, but I have to say this. You goddamn idiot, find me a single book written by a scholar for academia that don't say the same thing I do about the Crusades. I dare you.

You are so goddamn arrogant, you impersonate what people dislike about Americans. You think you are so superior, that only you have the philosophical right to start a war, that you have the only valid reason to invade other countries.

"What makes you so much more of a historian then me?"

Five years of studying History at a major Canadian institution. I don't care what you studied, cause apparently it didn't do much. Your best argument against me is constantly repeating that I don't know what I'm talking, I'm lacking in the knowledge department, I should read up on my history. Yet you're not able to support anything you say except with 'that's the way it is because I say so'. Are you a lawyer?

I know I said this before, but I'm outta here for real this time, as intelligent as you might be, you still argue like a 5 year old.

NowhereMan

01-27-2005, 09:32 AM

GHoSToKeR

01-27-2005, 10:06 AM

your a young ass piece of shit for even saying that

u are condoning it
fuck you for every troop in danger
u need a soul.You didnt answer the question

Why is a suicide bombing on an American convoy any worse than an American plane bombing a residential complex in Iraq?

And, for fucks sake, im not condoning it at all. BUT, I do think that the American troops are just as bad as these 'insergants' that they are fighting. They use suicide bombers, and America uses napalm. Whats the difference? Theyre both just as fucking disgusting as eachother. Nobody should be killing anybody, and killing for a cause is still killing. Anybody that kills anybody is wrong in my eyes

Goddam nationalists.

Just because you come from America doesnt mean that you should stand by your troops when theyre doing wrong, or your president when he is doing wrong.

America should never have gone in to Iraq. So when you blame these people for the death of American troops, consider the fact that if they had never entered Iraq none of them would be dead, and neither would thousands of Iraqis, innocent or otherwise.

The point I was trying to make in my last post was what I said earlier:

Anybody that kills anybody is wrong. It doesnt matter what country you come from or what reason you have for doing it, you still should never kill anybody. Soldiers are murderers. Period. And I dont care if I offend anybody by saying that, because im offended by the blatant disregard for human life that so many of you show. Later.

NowhereMan

01-27-2005, 10:18 AM

You didnt answer the question

Why is a suicide bombing on an American convoy any worse than an American plane bombing a residential complex in Iraq?

And, for fucks sake, im not condoning it at all. BUT, I do think that the American troops are just as bad as these 'insergants' that they are fighting. They use suicide bombers, and America uses napalm. Whats the difference? Theyre both just as fucking disgusting as eachother. Nobody should be killing anybody, and killing for a cause is still killing. Anybody that kills anybody is wrong in my eyes

Goddam nationalist.

Just because you come from America doesnt mean that you should stand by your troops when theyre doing wrong, or your president when he is doing wrong.

America should never have gone in to Iraq. So when you blame these people for the death of American troops, consider the fact that if they had never entered Iraq none of them would be dead, and neither would thousands of Iraqis, innocent or otherwise.

The point I was trying to make in my last post was what I said earlier:

Anybody that kills anybody is wrong. It doesnt matter what country you come from or what reason you have for doing it, you still should never kill anybody. Soldiers are murderers. Period. And I dont care if I offend anybody by saying that, because im offended by the blatant disregard for human life that so many of you show. Later.

the difference is
we dont say hey look there is a bus full of kids,shoot it
dum ass

and the ones there (insurgents) aint but hired guns by osama's ass and a recriuts of a religion being used wrongly

they want you dead,deny it it till they cut ya throat

and they are there becuase its the job of the troops to go die and kill where ever the goverment says ,i dont see where you support them ,you act like they should just quit" say no man i wont do it,?

and your free lil punk ass rides the ride for free so shut the fuck up before ya really piss somebody off
you dont know shit about anything,your "wet behind the ears"
i dont got no us flag sticking out my ass ,i just know iraq is so in need of a change,and its costing us lives,
and to those who say what about this place and that place
well hell now ya want us to go invade other places for REASONS you think
need it?

this thread is a downer

Herbaholic00

01-27-2005, 10:21 AM

GHoSToKeR

01-27-2005, 10:39 AM

the difference is
we dont say hey look there is a bus full of kids,shoot it
dum ass

and the ones there (insurgents) aint but hired guns by osama's ass and a recriuts of a religion being used wrongly

they want you dead,deny it it till they cut ya throat

and they are there becuase its the job of the troops to go die and kill where ever the goverment says ,i dont see where you support them ,you act like they should just quit" say no man i wont do it,?

and your free lil punk ass rides the ride for free so shut the fuck up before ya really piss somebody off
you dont know shit about anything,your "wet behind the ears"
i dont got no us flag sticking out my ass ,i just know iraq is so in need of a change,and its costing us lives,
and to those who say what about this place and that place
well hell now ya want us to go invade other places for REASONS you think
need it?

this thread is a downerWow. You guys sure get pissed off when somebody else has a different opinion.

Maybe Iraq is in need of a change. But why the fuck should your corrupt ass be the one to change it? America is in need of a change, too. Hell, the whole world is in need of a fucking change.

"i dont see where you support them"

You're right. There is no way in hell you will EVER find me supporting a war, or supporting troops. NEVER. I find it sickening that ANYBODY can support troops. Theyre people that get paid to kill other people over little bits of land. And theyre supposed to be heroes? Im supposed to look up to them? BULLSHIT! fuck that, and fuck all this nationalism bullshit that you so proudly display, but under the name of 'patriosm'. I'll tell you something for free. Patriosm is just another tactic dreamt up by the government to control people, to make us do what they want. If youre stupid enough to believe in all this patriosm bullshit, then youre probably the type of person that would be sitting in front of your TV, with a beer in one hand, shooting your gun in to the air with the other, and screaming 'Yeeehaaaaw' every time you hear of another apartment block full of Iraqi men, women and children being blown up.

Oh, and thanks herbolic.. at least one person agrees with me lol

Herbaholic00

01-27-2005, 10:47 AM

Its mad, immagine if some other country invaded yours, u got the soldiers raping your mom and beating your men and your losing family members becuase of the bombings.
What if france had just decided to liberate the us from britain. The uprising has to come from within.
Its no wonder the people dont trust the us military, the only thing a uniform meant to them during sadams dictatorship was fear and now the supposed liberators are acting in the same way....we've all seen the pics.

The usa is just a big fucking company with a president and board of directors calling the shots, its a joke.

Its like a big game of chess and the every day people are the porns and we all know porns are only valuble under certain circumstances and are frequently sacrificed to gain and advantage.

Iraq will be liberated by the US's deffinition of the word and nothing else. The markets will be opended up and be exploited..........fuck it, i cant b bothered..........

Peace

juggalo420

01-27-2005, 12:55 PM

LT- if you think the koran is violent in nature, i suggest you actually read it, and not just nod your head to wat the 700club says about it. i read it, no where it does it sanction the killing of innocent people, they are only suppose to use violence as a last resort, as in war and in some instinces of breaking the law. of course theres different interpretations of it, theres a distorted violent one used by terrorists, and one used by the rest of the worlds 1 billion musslims. do you think 1 billion people are out to get you?
also before you start pointing fingers i suggest you re-read your bible, the old testament is littered with passages of god ordering the genocide of complete nations, death was used for a wide variety of crimes, in the book of revalations in the new testament jesus and the saints appear to be a bunch of sadists getting pleasure from other peoples torments in hell.

Libertarian Toker

01-27-2005, 01:11 PM

"I know I said this before, but I'm outta here for real this time, as intelligent as you might be, you still argue like a 5 year old"

Running away so soon? Awww, don't go man, your arguement ain't so bad that you need to run off just yet. I guess your saying is "if you can't beat em, run away".

"I'm sorry, but I have to say this. You goddamn idiot"

Beaking point! Cool! So now your down to name calling are ya? Who was it that was acting as a 5 year old again? Oh ya, me! LOL! Your hypocray is amazing. Everything you want from me your unwilling to do yourself, and most every label you try to pin on me is exactly what your doing yourself.

"You are so goddamn arrogant, you impersonate what people dislike about Americans."

Ahhhhh, the truth comes out again. As with a lot of people, your envy of the US is causing you to feel inferior, and that in turn is causing the anger and need you seem to have to bash the US, that we see here today.

"find me a single book written by a scholar for academia that don't say the same thing I do about the Crusades. I dare you."

Why the rules? Why does it have to be from "a scholar for academia"? A single book? But what if I formed my opinion by reading a lot of stuff, from a lot of sources, over a long piriod of time? I have a better idear, why don't you show me a few books that do say what you have claimed. It should be an easy thing for you to do since all academic's that have wrote books on the subjet think the same as you do. If your the adult your claiming to be while stomping off in a hissy fit, you will do what it is you want me to do first. You know, lead by example. Of course if your still having a hissy fit, you won't even reply I will be forced to leave it at that. BTW, if your really through this time, why did you ask me questions?

"You think you are so superior"

Have a look at yourself man, your trying despretely to prove your better then me.

"You are so goddamn arrogant, that only you have the philosophical right to start a war, that you have the only valid reason to invade other countries."

Where did that come from? If you say stuff about me that I know is untrue, what is it your doing? Do you really think you know what I think? Why would you say that I think something like that? What evidence do you have that would cause you to say that I think the US is the only one with a right to start wars? If you have to resort to this type of thing to feel superior, then it is as I said before, you do it because you feel inferior.

"Five years of studying History at a major Canadian institution."

Well there ya go! Five years of brainwashing. I like the way you call it what it truely is. It's an institution alright. Did you ever stop and wonder if it might be you that has had his mind controled?

"I don't care what you studied, cause apparently it didn't do much."

Well, ok then! I guess you win the "I studied more then you did" thing by default, as you have already made up your mind without evidence of anything to back up your opinion. You do that quite a bit. It makes me wonder if your able to draw any conclusions on your own that are actually correct.

"Are you a lawyer?"

Antique/junk dealer.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/dv-4-34-shafaat.html

Really man, if ya can't find your own "evidence" out there from both sides of the issue, then your just plain not looking for it. Find out for yourself man, don't continue to let others "change" your mind. Change it for yourself.

Toker

Libertarian Toker

01-27-2005, 01:15 PM

Wow. You guys sure get pissed off when somebody else has a different opinion.

Need I remind you of what started this thread? You guys attacked Torog because he thinks different then you do. Nice try at turning it around, but I ain't buying it.

Toker

Libertarian Toker

01-27-2005, 01:25 PM

"also before you start pointing fingers i suggest you re-read your bible"

I suggest you re-read this thread before you spout your pre programed BS. It is not my bible, and your own words say what I have been saying the whole time. Islam creates violence. I guess for you every last muslim has to be violent in order to say that islam is violent. It's an all or nothing world out there ain't it?

Toker

NowhereMan

01-27-2005, 01:34 PM

Wow. You guys sure get pissed off when somebody else has a different opinion.

Maybe Iraq is in need of a change. But why the fuck should your corrupt ass be the one to change it? America is in need of a change, too. Hell, the whole world is in need of a fucking change.

"i dont see where you support them"

You're right. There is no way in hell you will EVER find me supporting a war, or supporting troops. NEVER. I find it sickening that ANYBODY can support troops. Theyre people that get paid to kill other people over little bits of land. And theyre supposed to be heroes? Im supposed to look up to them? BULLSHIT! fuck that, and fuck all this nationalism bullshit that you so proudly display, but under the name of 'patriosm'. I'll tell you something for free. Patriosm is just another tactic dreamt up by the government to control people, to make us do what they want. If youre stupid enough to believe in all this patriosm bullshit, then youre probably the type of person that would be sitting in front of your TV, with a beer in one hand, shooting your gun in to the air with the other, and screaming 'Yeeehaaaaw' every time you hear of another apartment block full of Iraqi men, women and children being blown up.

Oh, and thanks herbolic.. at least one person agrees with me lol

your a ignorant selfish ass
you wouldnt support anything that may risk your precious lil ass
you wouldnt be able to say a dam thing about a dam thing if not for those that serve the nation
you want iraq better
get your ass over there and fix it

oh thats right you probly go to college on some grant money
or gotta go ask mommy if its ok,

nobody celebrates no people getting blew up with no beer and gun shooting in the air, thats racist shit agianst southerners but i guess since you dont say nigger and spik and camel jockey its cool
well its not ,your the fucking reason this nation can be so bad people like you who expect others to die for your rights to be a big mouth

yehaaw suck a turd ya punk
ya pissing me the fuck off
sissy ass wouldnt fight for anything
you would let ya grany get raped and say oh,,,,,its ok granny he didnt mean it he just sick and well we gotta except it

grow a set of balls when you ever get a soul

you pompus ass ,your so much better than me and anyone here
used to think you was just dum ass kid
now i can see your a racist towards all americans especially non city dwellers

fuk it tellin ya this is a wiaste

Torog

01-27-2005, 01:41 PM

Need I remind you of what started this thread? You guys attacked Torog because he thinks different then you do. Nice try at turning it around, but I ain't buying it.

Toker
Howdy and Good mornin,LT,

Yeah..it's the same old ,same old..I'm a traditional values feller,in a sea full of amoral relativists...lol. In the brave new world of liberalism-there ain't no room for dinosuars like me,I should just git with the 'program'-and stop making waves...NOT !!

I believe that Delta9 said that if one is lying bloody and dying in the street-that a muslim would not sop to help-that's actually true..one of the our rules was-when I was in Saudi,was that even if we saw a traffic accident happen in front of us,and folks were injured-that we must not help them-because in Islam,the plight of the victims-is to be left up to Allah's Will..if we interferred with Allah's Will-then we could be thrown into jail.

Christians ain't strapping on bomb belts and blowing up school buses full of children..nor are we cutting people's heads off-either..yet these fellers claim with a straight face-that Christianity is no more or less-violent than Islam--HOGWASH !! The facts speak for themselves..in the Sudan and elsewhere-Christians are buying folks out of slavery-Islam is taking Christian slaves..the fact is-is that Islam is responsible for almost evry conflict taking place in the world at this time.

Well..I think it's time to wake and bake-I'll probably go into chat for a bit..Have a good one...Torog :D

Herbaholic00

01-27-2005, 02:10 PM

Yeah..it's the same old ,same old.. If your not republican your liberal.............bullshit, they are like coke and pepsi. Skull and bones...............does that mean anything to anyone?

Some people just wanna see thru the bullshit, juggalo said that he's read both the bible and koran...........

Peace

pisshead

01-27-2005, 03:14 PM

Howdy and Good mornin,LT,

Yeah..it's the same old ,same old..I'm a traditional values feller,in a sea full of amoral relativists...lol. In the brave new world of liberalism-there ain't no room for dinosuars like me,I should just git with the 'program'-and stop making waves...NOT !!

I believe that Delta9 said that if one is lying bloody and dying in the street-that a muslim would not sop to help-that's actually true..one of the our rules was-when I was in Saudi,was that even if we saw a traffic accident happen in front of us,and folks were injured-that we must not help them-because in Islam,the plight of the victims-is to be left up to Allah's Will..if we interferred with Allah's Will-then we could be thrown into jail.

Christians ain't strapping on bomb belts and blowing up school buses full of children..nor are we cutting people's heads off-either..yet these fellers claim with a straight face-that Christianity is no more or less-violent than Islam--HOGWASH !! The facts speak for themselves..in the Sudan and elsewhere-Christians are buying folks out of slavery-Islam is taking Christian slaves..the fact is-is that Islam is responsible for almost evry conflict taking place in the world at this time.

Well..I think it's time to wake and bake-I'll probably go into chat for a bit..Have a good one...Torog :D

brave new world...funny you mention that. kind of like bush's forced psychological testing of everything that already passed your congress? that's a hallmark of a dictatorship...did you hear about the new freedom initiative on fox news torog? does it even exist? yes, it does, but i'm willing to bet you have no clue what it is. ignorance is strength.

and you rely on this let/right paradigm, why don't you check voting records torog? it's democrats that are voting for all o bush's big tyrannical government policies, and most of those who vote against bush in our congress, are republicans...

it's not a left/right issue. why do you deny the destruction of the bill of rights and constitution? we're turning into iraq.

F L E S H

01-27-2005, 04:38 PM

brave new world...funny you mention that. kind of like bush's forced psychological testing of everything that already passed your congress? that's a hallmark of a dictatorship...did you hear about the new freedom initiative on fox news torog? does it even exist? yes, it does, but i'm willing to bet you have no clue what it is. ignorance is strength.

and you rely on this let/right paradigm, why don't you check voting records torog? it's democrats that are voting for all o bush's big tyrannical government policies, and most of those who vote against bush in our congress, are republicans...

it's not a left/right issue. why do you deny the destruction of the bill of rights and constitution? we're turning into iraq.
Thank god there's other people who make sense in here....

Just a warning Pisshead, don't argue with LT, you can't win :D

I also heard about the forced psychological testing. That is one of the scariest things I have ever heard. Believe me, they will prescribe drugs to anyone who's not how the government would like them to be. The US will become a nation of brainwashed government puppets, much like Torog, LT and NowhereMan...

So much for your freedom, soon, you won't even have the freedom to think on your own, without your head being filled with chemicals. Congratulations, 4 more years.

pisshead

01-27-2005, 04:47 PM

Thank god there's other people who make sense in here....

Just a warning Pisshead, don't argue with LT, you can't win :D

I also heard about the forced psychological testing. That is one of the scariest things I have ever heard. Believe me, they will prescribe drugs to anyone who's not how the government would like them to be. The US will become a nation of brainwashed government puppets, much like Torog, LT and NowhereMan...

So much for your freedom, soon, you won't even have the freedom to think on your own, without your head being filled with chemicals. Congratulations, 4 more years.

many a time we've 'argued' on the other politics board here. it mainly consists of him saying no one can know anything for sure, i'm wrong, everything i say is bullshit, blah blah blah...history doesn't even matter, even when it's repeating to a T, yadda yadda yadda...no facts or information. he has no discernment and doesn't know how to "read" news, even mainstream, which doesn't lie all the time, they spin.

they'll call torture 'abuse' and say it's not that bad, even while describing the horrible acts of 'abuse'. well i'm here to say torture is bad.

history is full of political conspiracies. it's full of people wanting more and more and more power and control, nothing is ever enough. but it can't be happening today. let's just let the giant electronic control and tracking and taxing grid be placed all around us, because we can trust the loving government. this world empire will be a lot different from those in the past, it'll be even more difficult for it to fall if we allow it them to further wall themselves off from the public and horde the suppressed technology.

it's also important to note that this would be going on regardless of which puppet is in office. kerry voted for the war and the patriot act and the police state and clinton started a lot of the programs that bush is continuing. there has been bascially one plan in this country for a long time, for a one world government. 20 years ago you were nuts to even insinuate that idea, now it's all over the news, but i'm still weird for talking about it...

F L E S H

01-27-2005, 05:05 PM

It's not about left vs right, democrat vs republican, and it never was.

This is the time to begin worrying about the future, about REAL freedom, freedom of thought, expression and decision. What is most troublesome is the complete and utter disconnect between what the government tells us and what is actually happening. Their rhetoric is all about freedom, liberation, salvation, but they don't give a fuck about that, they care about the big dollar.

Remember how everyone was complaining about rising gas prices? We all assumed it was because of the war and what not. Well, this week Imperial Oil released their financial statements, and reported RECORD PROFITS! There's your liberation, my good Americans.

pisshead

01-27-2005, 05:09 PM

yeah, it's not so much about the dollar as it about control and power. these people print the worthless money they buy up the planet with. controlling the oil isn't about letting more of it get to us so we get less prices, it's about controlling it and then jacking up the prices.

i was watching some of the inauguration and when bush came out, there was this weird orweillian voice on a loudspeaker saying shit like "wave to your leader, he loves america. cheer for him and show him that you love america too..."

it was really fucking creepy.

aldoux huxley's, author of brave new world, brother was the first head of unesco. he gave speeches before his death of laboratories with people hooked up with wires to computers and a lot of other weird stuff. you can hear the speech, it's online. it gets very strange.

Libertarian Toker

01-27-2005, 05:45 PM

[QUOTE=pisshead]many a time we've 'argued' on the other politics board here. it mainly consists of him saying no one can know anything for sure, i'm wrong, everything i say is bullshit, blah blah blah...history doesn't even matter, even when it's repeating to a T, yadda yadda yadda...no facts or information. he has no discernment and doesn't know how to "read" news, even mainstream, which doesn't lie all the time, they spin.QUOTE]

And many a time I showed you for the lier you are. I have also given you the evidence you asked for. All you ever do is ignore it, or act as if it is dissinformation or some such thing. If AJ didn't plant the thoughts in your head, you wouldn't have them. Your the most brainwashed person I havet meet yet PH. Step back and look at what it is your doing. You might see that your being led around on a leash if ya actualy open your eyes to try and see.

Toker

pisshead

01-27-2005, 05:58 PM

ahhh, the old alex jones created all of this...it's getting old. and you know it's not true. i'm looking at about a hundred books on my mantle, 1 of them is written by alex jones. most of them were written before he was born.

but you might think about calling his show. if he's truly the fraud you think he is, give him a call, discuss something, prove his listeners that he's all wrong...how about 911? i'll be listening. think about it, you could change so much. millions of people listen to the show...think of all the good your non-propaganda information could provide...

i didn't even bring him up. you're the one who always brings him up. unless you're trying to say that alex jones created the library of congress and the congressional record and the cfr rag foreign affairs and executive orders and upi and reuters and the ap...and hundreds of papers around the country and world??

he's created a parallel internet where he wrote everything so he could make it all up and then sell stuff? is that it?

GHoSToKeR

01-27-2005, 06:51 PM

your a ignorant selfish ass
you wouldnt support anything that may risk your precious lil assI support what I believe in. I dont believe in war. Its that simple. I 'support' the use and legalisation of Cannabis, and its got me put in jail. Just because I dont like war, doesnt mean I dont support anything. You just want everybody to be blood-thirsty and war-loving like yourself. Sorry mate, no can do.

you wouldnt be able to say a dam thing about a dam thing if not for those that serve the nationWhat the fuck is that supposed to mean? Thats complete bullshit. In fact, I think the correct term would be 'brainwashed bullshit'

you want iraq better
get your ass over there and fix itI didnt say I want Iraq better. I only said that American troops are just as bad as anybody else who takes a human life for a 'cause'. Human life is human life.. Killing somebody is killing somebody. It shouldnt be done, for any reason. You know the German people thought they were doing the 'right' thing when they supported the genecide of all Jewish people? They would have said exactly what youre saying if I had said the same thing to them. Wake up and smell the bullshit, or are you too ignorant to see it? And would you even admit it if you did?

oh thats right you probly go to college on some grant money
or gotta go ask mommy if its ok,
Fuck you. I work and pay taxes like everybody else. You know why im working? Im saving to go to college in September so I dont have to get a grant or borrow money. Anyway, I dont have to explain my situation to you.

nobody celebrates no people getting blew up with no beer and gun shooting in the air, thats racist shit agianst southerners but i guess since you dont say nigger and spik and camel jockey its cool
Racist? Thats not the first time youve unjustly called me racist. Maybe I was stereotyping, but i'm definately not racist. And trust me, i'm sure there are a ton of people that celebrate Iraqis or Americans being killed. There are some sick people in the world. But I guess, when you celebrate your troops victory, youre celebrating the death of other people. So why are you any different?

well its not ,your the fucking reason this nation can be so bad people like you who expect others to die for your rights to be a big mouth
Sorry, bud. I live in a different country. And I dont expect anybody to die for anybody. I dont want anybody to die for anybody (can you say the same? I doubt it) but theres not much I can do to stop the government from sending people to their deaths.

yehaaw suck a turd ya punk
ya pissing me the fuck off
Good. Maybe if enough people piss you off for the same reason, you might actually stop and THINK about something for a change.

sissy ass wouldnt fight for anything
you would let ya grany get raped and say oh,,,,,its ok granny he didnt mean it he just sick and well we gotta except it
Who the fuck are you to say that kind of shit to anybody? You fucking prick.

grow a set of balls when you ever get a soul
I have balls, and I dont believe in souls. So what exactly the fuck are you talking about

you pompus ass ,your so much better than me and anyone here
used to think you was just dum ass kid
now i can see your a racist towards all americans especially non city dwellers

fuk it tellin ya this is a wiaste
Again, im not racist. And yes, this is a waste.

GHoSToKeR

01-27-2005, 06:57 PM

Need I remind you of what started this thread? You guys attacked Torog because he thinks different then you do. Nice try at turning it around, but I ain't buying it.

Toker
Dude, LT, this is futile. My first post in this thread was "LT, why are you sticking up for Torog's blatant racism/prejudism/whatever-the-fuck-you-wanna-call-it?".

I wasnt attacking Torog, I was merely shocked at what he said. Torogs cool, and so are you (from what I can tell). Im not attacking anybody, except maybe Nowhereman, but thats a different story. Debating stuff is the best way to learn, or at least the best way to strengthen your arguements. :)

Libertarian Toker

01-27-2005, 07:49 PM

"Debating stuff is the best way to learn, or at least the best way to strengthen your arguements."

I agree! You will get no arguement from me on that one. Wait, does that mean we won't learn anything from this? No really though, you won't learn much from agreement. Now a good heated arguement, that is another story. That is as long as it isn't just an insult fest. I find a lot of the time people don't realize that they are doing the same things they claim to be against when trying to win an arguement. They tend to say and do things just to try and win, the truth be damned. Who really cares if you win or not anyway? The main thing should be finding the truth about the issue at hand. If people distort that issue and it's facts to promote an idear, and exagerate everything about it out of proportion, then what good has come of it? If attacking that which is different, while claiming not to like people being attacked for thinking different happens, then what does that make the attacker? Sometimes, even though it is hard to do, you have to let go and look at things from a differnet view no matter where your standing on the political field. Left, right or in the middle, if your only looking at one side, that is all you will see. Same is true for most all issues.

Toker

F L E S H

01-27-2005, 10:00 PM

Libertarian Toker

01-28-2005, 02:14 AM

Awwww, you poor thing, reduced to mindless chatter. It must be a drag for you to feel your arguement is so bad that you feel the need to run off with your tail between your legs. I see your still barking as you run though. Maybe this time you will finally do what you have been promising to do. Or maybe you can stick around and try some more one liners to boost your ego with.

Toker

GHoSToKeR

01-28-2005, 02:18 AM

"The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a bowling ball wouldn't."(Russell Beland, Springfield)

Thats my favourite one-liner.

Forgive me, for I am stoned.

Encatuse

01-28-2005, 02:35 AM

That may well be-however,at least I know who the enemies of Freedom and civilization are..and right now-that's Islam and muslims.

Ha-fucking-hahahahahahahahahaha

I know who the REAL enemy of freedom is. General Torog, leader of Troop Prejudice.

juggalo420

01-28-2005, 03:23 AM

Torog

01-28-2005, 12:15 PM

some people are to ignorant to argue with, they refuse to even consider they are wrong and your one of those sorry people my friend.
Howdy juggalo420,

An example of ignorance is this:" some people are to(too) ignorant",an example of stupidity is you-chugging dxm like soda-pop..that's sheer stupidity..in my opinion.

An example of contradiction-is you calling LT your friend..friends don't call friends 'sorry people'..don't ya think ?

Until you've reached LT's age and life experience-it is you-that is ignorant and not really worth argueing with..not that being ignorant,is a bad thing,because ignorance can be solved through education and experience..there' still hope for ya !

Have a good one...Torog :D

Libertarian Toker

01-28-2005, 02:05 PM

some people are to ignorant to argue with, they refuse to even consider they are wrong and your one of those sorry people my friend.

You know, you may be right! Then again, you may be wrong!

Toker

psychocat

01-28-2005, 05:38 PM

You know, you may be right! Then again, you may be wrong!

Toker

Doesn't all that sitting on the fence give you splinters in the arse??

The ignorance that promotes the idea that all Muslims are "evil" is so stupid it is right up there with the idea that the moon is made of cheese , what friggin century are you guys living in??

Extremists exist in all groups and they are all as mad as each other.

Delta9

01-28-2005, 08:56 PM

You don't support getting rid of Saddam Hussein. Why the fuck not? He's a fucking murder, he killed his own son. Someone had to put and end to that ass-hole at least George Bush was not afraid to do something about it. Wether you wan't to believe it or not there are people who dedicate their lives to the destruction of the United States. They should give those Terrorist prisoners Burgmansia to get them to talk the tropane alkaloids have been said to induce a trance-like state in which the user is open to suggestion. Misha has been repoted to have been used in some incidences inSouth America by theives to rob tourists in which their victims have been slipped the scopolamine and they will actuall help the person commit the crime against themselves with no memory of the incident afterward.

Delta9

01-28-2005, 09:17 PM

"Some Brugmansia species are used in black magic."

"It is interesting to underline that in the European Middle Ages, the witches used Solance species, rubbing these plants on their broomsticks before climbing upon them."

GHoSToKeR

01-29-2005, 12:27 AM

Until you've reached LT's age and life experience-it is you-that is ignorant and not really worth argueing with
now that is ignorant! Ignorance isnt like acne, you dont grow out of it once you stop being a teenager. You, Torog, are certainly one of the most prejudice and ignorant people i've seen.

Delta9

01-29-2005, 01:17 AM

You know suicide Bombings are hip thing in Arabia nowadays, especially for the girls now too.

They'er like those goddamn Japs, the kamakazi. Banzi!!!!!!!!!!

Libertarian Toker

01-29-2005, 01:21 AM

Doesn't all that sitting on the fence give you splinters in the arse??

The ignorance that promotes the idea that all Muslims are "evil" is so stupid it is right up there with the idea that the moon is made of cheese , what friggin century are you guys living in??

Extremists exist in all groups and they are all as mad as each other.

Who is it exactly that said all muslims are evil, and who is it exactly that you think is sitting on a fence? I never once wrote the word evil. I have said violence quite a bit though. If your going to join in, you should at least try to understand what is being talked about before you spout off.

Toker

psychocat

01-29-2005, 02:08 AM

Who is it exactly that said all muslims are evil, and who is it exactly that you think is sitting on a fence? I never once wrote the word evil. I have said violence quite a bit though. If your going to join in, you should at least try to understand what is being talked about before you spout off.

Toker

If the cap fits wear it!
The sitting on the fence remark was directed at you because of the could be this could be the other comment.Having every opinion and no self opinion.
Most of Torogs posts are about the "evil" muslims , I'm almost convinced he's a fabrication comprised of all the Good Ole USA backwood stereotypes . LMAO.
You should at least realize not everything is directed at you.

Libertarian Toker

01-29-2005, 11:48 AM

If the cap fits wear it!
The sitting on the fence remark was directed at you because of the could be this could be the other comment.Having every opinion and no self opinion.
Most of Torogs posts are about the "evil" muslims , I'm almost convinced he's a fabrication comprised of all the Good Ole USA backwood stereotypes . LMAO.
You should at least realize not everything is directed at you.

When you quote me, then reply to that, yes, I do think your talking to me. I also realize that it was directed at me, you just couldn't find any other way out when I called you on it but to blaim Torog. One lie to cover another.

As for the fence sitting, whatever! If you wish to think that, go ahead. I guess it makes me less human or something if it was actualy true. Of course sarcasim may have been at work, and your whole bitching at me about it thing may be due to your inability to comprehend what you read.

Toker

Torog

01-29-2005, 12:18 PM

When you quote me, then reply to that, yes, I do think your talking to me. I also realize that it was directed at me, you just couldn't find any other way out when I called you on it but to blaim Torog. One lie to cover another.

As for the fence sitting, whatever! If you wish to think that, go ahead. I guess it makes me less human or something if it was actualy true. Of course sarcasim may have been at work, and your whole bitching at me about it thing may be due to your inability to comprehend what you read.

Toker
Howdy and good mornin,LT-

I want to clarify,that I don't believe that I said that all muslims are evil,maybe something along the lines of a troubling percentage,are dong evil acts-but not all muslims..at least,not yet.

Who was it who said that they think that I'm a fabrication of USA backwoods types ? LMAO...that's a good one..I assure who ever wrote that about me-has no clue..I am who I am-a long-haired country folk,not some pretender or wannabe..I'm genuine because honesty is my policy..and puttin on airs..is for liberals and snobs,city-slickers and limp-wristed men.

LT, I surely do thank ya,for that wonderful treasure.. :D , I think that I'm just about ready to go into chat and wake and bake..and boy-howdy-it's going to be fun !!

Have a good one...Torog :D

Libertarian Toker

01-29-2005, 12:32 PM

I gotta go to the flea this morning. I'm outa here in just a few minutes. I am waked, and done got baked. Off to work I go.

Toker

pisshead

01-29-2005, 03:57 PM

Howdy and good mornin,LT-

I want to clarify,that I don't believe that I said that all muslims are evil,maybe something along the lines of a troubling percentage,are dong evil acts-but not all muslims..at least,not yet.

Who was it who said that they think that I'm a fabrication of USA backwoods types ? LMAO...that's a good one..I assure who ever wrote that about me-has no clue..I am who I am-a long-haired country folk,not some pretender or wannabe..I'm genuine because honesty is my policy..and puttin on airs..is for liberals and snobs,city-slickers and limp-wristed men.

LT, I surely do thank ya,for that wonderful treasure.. :D , I think that I'm just about ready to go into chat and wake and bake..and boy-howdy-it's going to be fun !!

Have a good one...Torog :D

no no no torog, you're wrong. it's the jews. they're the scourge of society and must be dealt with. all the jews are bad, very bad. evil jews. hate them, hate the jews. they're bad. hate them, hate them, bomb them while liberating them and then proclaim how evil they are while you hate them.

what do you think about the new freedom initiative and the model state emergency health powers act torog? congress is passing unconstitutional tyrannical and dictatorial bills, do you read those? does it matter to you that your country is turning into iraq while claiming to want to liberate the whole world? where in the constitution does it give us that authority?

what about the FTAA and the wide open borders and our ever eroding sovereignty...does cameras everywhere, being taxed to drive and national id cards and lrad sound weapons and military on the streets sound like freedom?or are you too focused on perpetual wars for liberation?

what about UNESCO? clinton didn't dare sign us back on, because of people like you, and now bush has done it, and you're asleep? this is how the left/right paradigm works. why do you not care about this?

i know, being pro 2nd amendment, wanting to protect the wide open border (while being told the terrorists hate us and want to attack us), anti-forced drugging of kids in school, being against forced roundups and vaccination....that makes me a liberal right? bush is a 'liberal'...he's only expanded every police state measure clinton started...

freedom starts at home. there is no left or right.

google "p2og"

psychocat

01-29-2005, 07:47 PM

When you quote me, then reply to that, yes, I do think your talking to me. I also realize that it was directed at me, you just couldn't find any other way out when I called you on it but to blaim Torog. One lie to cover another.

As for the fence sitting, whatever! If you wish to think that, go ahead. I guess it makes me less human or something if it was actualy true. Of course sarcasim may have been at work, and your whole bitching at me about it thing may be due to your inability to comprehend what you read.

Toker

Are you blind??
Called me out on what ?? The belief that you will have an opinion as long as it isn't your own? Get used to the fact that it is impossible to keep everyone happy all of the time.
Why would I want you to be less human when I already dislike a lot of humans , human or martian doesn't mean a thing.
My ability to discern what this post is about is not in any way limited.

I can imagine the bullshit that is happening right now in the states because of Bush's "righteous" war , the sideways glances at anyone with a bit of an arab appearance , the taunts by racist rednecks (not everyone from the middle east is a muslim), the paranoia not equaled since McCarthy's communist witchhunts.

I can well believe there are those among the muslim communities who are fearfull of what a bunch of moronic dickheads with guns can do if they suddenly take it into there heads to start dispensing they're own version of justice .

Libertarian Toker

01-29-2005, 10:16 PM

My ability to discern what this post is about is not in any way limited.

Sure it isn't limited man, I believe you.

"Are you blind??"

Why, do you have something against blind people?

"Called me out on what ??"

So your saying your limited now? I see! well, ok, I'll try to open your mind so you can see a little better. You made the claim

"The ignorance that promotes the idea that all Muslims are "evil" is so stupid it is right up there with the idea that the moon is made of cheese , what friggin century are you guys living in??"

Then I said,

"I never once wrote the word evil."

Then you said it was for Torog but you quoted me. I called you out on your trying to say I said all muslims are evil, when clearly I never did. You also said I was fence sitting, when clearly I am not. That should be your first clue that I am being sarcastic with what I said. Are you getting all this, or should I slow down a little more for ya?

"Why would I want you to be less human when I already dislike a lot of humans , human or martian doesn't mean a thing."

You have a problem with sarcasim don't cha?

"I can imagine the bullshit that is happening right now in the states because of Bush's "righteous" war , the sideways glances at anyone with a bit of an arab appearance , the taunts by racist rednecks (not everyone from the middle east is a muslim), the paranoia not equaled since McCarthy's communist witchhunts."

The human imagination is something is it not? I could imagine a lot of things about you, but that wouldn't make them true now would it?

"I can well believe there are those among the muslim communities who are fearfull of what a bunch of moronic dickheads with guns can do if they suddenly take it into there heads to start dispensing they're own version of justice ."

I can believe that too.

Toker

psychocat

01-29-2005, 11:46 PM

Sure it isn't limited man, I believe you.

"Are you blind??"

Why, do you have something against blind people?

"Called me out on what ??"

So your saying your limited now? I see! well, ok, I'll try to open your mind so you can see a little better. You made the claim

"The ignorance that promotes the idea that all Muslims are "evil" is so stupid it is right up there with the idea that the moon is made of cheese , what friggin century are you guys living in??"

Then I said,

"I never once wrote the word evil."

Then you said it was for Torog but you quoted me. I called you out on your trying to say I said all muslims are evil, when clearly I never did. You also said I was fence sitting, when clearly I am not. That should be your first clue that I am being sarcastic with what I said. Are you getting all this, or should I slow down a little more for ya?

"Why would I want you to be less human when I already dislike a lot of humans , human or martian doesn't mean a thing."

You have a problem with sarcasim don't cha?

"I can imagine the bullshit that is happening right now in the states because of Bush's "righteous" war , the sideways glances at anyone with a bit of an arab appearance , the taunts by racist rednecks (not everyone from the middle east is a muslim), the paranoia not equaled since McCarthy's communist witchhunts."

The human imagination is something is it not? I could imagine a lot of things about you, but that wouldn't make them true now would it?

"I can well believe there are those among the muslim communities who are fearfull of what a bunch of moronic dickheads with guns can do if they suddenly take it into there heads to start dispensing they're own version of justice ."

I can believe that too.

Toker
Torog obviously has a problem with muslims.
You obviously feel offended (tough)
I never said the words I wrote were a quote from anyone it was a generalisation of the feeling I believe torog would like us all to feel.
It is also true that the attitude towards muslims is colored by the media.

"The ignorance that promotes the idea that all Muslims are "evil" is so stupid it is right up there with the idea that the moon is made of cheese , what friggin century are you guys living in??"

Again I say if the cap fits.

You know, you may be right! Then again, you may be wrong!

I call that sitting on the fence.

As for my other statements about the muslims feeling threatened , the fanatics don't just wear headscarfs and praise allah , they also take shape in the klan and others like them .

And this is just propoganda ??
http://www.christiansciencemonitor.com/2003/0410/p01s03-ussc.html

And this too I suppose.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2488829.stm

Now if you can forget your petty little beef with the way you interpret everything that is said that you don't like maybe you can stay on topic instead???
Pedants are ever so boring.

Libertarian Toker

01-30-2005, 01:55 AM

GHoSToKeR

01-30-2005, 02:00 AM

I think the point psychocat is trying to make, is that you shouldnt single-out one minority as violent, when just as much violence comes from other people and places.

Libertarian Toker

01-30-2005, 02:23 AM

I think the point psychocat is trying to make, is that you shouldnt single-out one minority as violent, when just as much violence comes from other people and places.

Islam produces violence. So what should I say about that so as to not offend sensitive people, that humans produce violence? Is that a broad enough stroke not to offend? I don't believe singling things out is such a bad thing. It helps to understand that singled out thing better. It doesn't make me hatefull to want to be spicific. What I have been saying is that islam creates violence. Without islam, there would be less violence. How many would blow themselves up to kill innocent people without islam? We can't say no to religion, but we can't let it rule us either. Will you stand up for Torog when he is singled out? Would you stand for his right to say those things you don't like? I would stand for a muslims right to worship, but I won't stand with their violence towards the innocent for any reason. Nor will I decieve myself into thinking islam is peacefull, when it's violence is all around us.

Toker

psychocat

01-30-2005, 03:31 AM

Sure thing boss, I'll try to stay on topic for ya. What was that topic anyway? My fence sitting, or Torogs hate? Maybe it was the sarcasim you still seem to be missing?

"Now if you can forget your petty little beef with the way you interpret everything that is said"

Well ok, but only if you promise to be a good boy also. Your first reply to me was an attack, if you attack me, I will defend. BTW, every time you claim I am sitting on some fence, you show how much you don't comprehend what you read.

"As for my other statements about the muslims feeling threatened , the fanatics don't just wear headscarfs and praise allah , they also take shape in the klan and others like them ."

And so you think what, that this somehow excuses islams violence? I don't get the whole comparing thing. Do you really feel if others do it too, that it is ok to do? That is a strange way of thinking, and it has been around a lot lately.

Toker

My first comment was a light hearted comment which you chose to be obsessed with , you're obviously incapable of escaping your prejudices about muslims , and at no point did I advocate violence in any form perpetrated by anyone.You certainly have made no attempt to answer the charge that muslims in the US are afraid of what can only be described as religious persecution.

http://gbgm-umc.org/Response/articles/USMuslim.html

If I wanted to attack you personally I would do so but since you are really only guilty of pettyness it would be equally petty of me to carry this any further , so I will put this in as plain a manner as possible.
Go away little boy !!

GHoSToKeR

01-30-2005, 05:42 AM

Will you stand up for Torog when he is singled out? Would you stand for his right to say those things you don't like? Yes, I would. If you take a look at the thread entitled "this is not a porn site", you will see that i'm the only person standing up for free-speech, when everybody else is asking for certain people to be banned for talking about a very taboo subject.

I don't like some of the things that Torog says, and i'm sure he - among many others - doesn't like some of the things that I say; such is life. But, there are a number of subjects that i'm sure Torog and I, and you and I, agree on. Just because i'm saying I dont like what Torog posted at the beginning of this thread, doesn't mean I have any hatred, animosity, or anger towards him, and I still think he and you are valued members of this community.

Many of the discussions i've had with Torog have ended in one of us saying 'Let's agree to disagree', and that's probably the best thing to do in this circumstance. We're all human, and we all have opinions and egos, so no two persons are ever going to completely agree, especially when we're talking about opinionated people such as ourselves. lol :)

Libertarian Toker

01-30-2005, 11:54 AM

"My first comment was a light hearted comment which you chose to be obsessed with"

Really??? Your story seems to change a bit as you go. Are you sure it was "light harted" as you say? If it was, why wait until now to say it was?

"you're obviously incapable of escaping your prejudices about muslims"

Calling islam violent is not being prejudice. It's being truthfull.

"and at no point did I advocate violence in any form perpetrated by anyone."

Did I say you did? I said you were excusing it. Maybe your not able to keep form making untrue statements because the truth won't work for ya! If you change the words, you change the meaning. If you have to change the meaning of what I say, then there might be something wrong with your arguement in the fist place.

"You certainly have made no attempt to answer the charge that muslims in the US are afraid of what can only be described as religious persecution."

http://gbgm-umc.org/Response/articles/USMuslim.html

You have one article that your basing your "religious persecution" claim on? To bad for you that it is not like that here. It does show that your belief system is based on what you want to think is happening here, much more then it is truth.

If I wanted to attack you personally I would do so but since you are really only guilty of pettyness it would be equally petty of me to carry this any further , so I will put this in as plain a manner as possible.
Go away little boy !!

Go away??? Awww, do I have to? Come on man, can't I stay a little longer? You being the big man you are, surely you could spare me over to another day?

Toker

psychocat

01-30-2005, 03:02 PM

http://www.progressiveaustin.org/atakmusl.htm
This is all untrue??
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter1.htm
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/5427525.htm?1c
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/sep2001/atta-s15_prn.shtml

Hysteria was always my least favourite human trait.
The truth is the negative imprinting (media brainwashing) is so wrong , the US born japanese were locked away after pearl harbour , how long will it be before the idiots decide "well we better lock up all the muslims now before they do anything"?
I don't believe all americans are racist bigots but nor do I believe they're all nice guys , I know how some folk just can't think for themselves and the evidence is there showing that incidents of persecution are occuring.

Libertarian Toker

01-30-2005, 07:05 PM

Your articles are rather outdated don't you think? And they are struggling to find things in them to claim are racialy motivated attacks. If you think what we did a few days after 9/11 is bad, have a look at what Amsterdam did a few days after the muslim killed the movie director van gouh. What's untrue about your claim of religious persecution in the US is that in order for your claim to be true, it would have to be orginized, which it is not. Islam is orginized hate that produces violence. It's not hard to understand, but you do need to be trying to understand.

"The truth is the negative imprinting (media brainwashing) is so wrong , the US born japanese were locked away after pearl harbour , how long will it be before the idiots decide "well we better lock up all the muslims now before they do anything"?"

What good does it do you to exagerate things so far out of porportion? There is "imprinting" in all forms of media. Do you have a certain form of media that you find truthfull, and unbiased? If so, what is that form of media? No one is wanting to "lock all muslims up now". Your view is obviously bent in some strange direction for your own personal resons. Can you find me a more recent list of muslims being "persecuted" in the US just for being muslims?

"I don't believe all americans are racist bigots but nor do I believe they're all nice guys , I know how some folk just can't think for themselves and the evidence is there showing that incidents of persecution are occuring."

You know there is a difference between what islam is doing, and what happened in responce to 9/11. There is no ongoing systematic persecution of muslims in the US, and your very own "evidence" is proof of that. You have very few, very isolated cases, that popped up after a very very bad attack on the US. That should be cause to praise US for the restraint and understanding of our people, yet people like you demand perfection. If they don't get it, they claim persecution. Did you check to see what became of the cases you dug up? Charged with a hate crime one of them was. More then likely he's still in jail. Pesecution??? Yeah right! Does Islam produce violence? It sure does.

Toker