Myth about tap roots...

[Delta9Haze420]

OK for awhile now I have seen time and again people say "PUT THE TAP ROOT DOWN!!!!" when advising people on how to put a germinated seed to soil. I am curious why so many people seem to think this is such a big issue?

I studied botony heavily as an undergraduate, and during a lab one day I specifically remember the PhD remarking that it makes no difference which way the tap root faces; it will grow down even if initially facing up (there was a lecture about gravitropism). The shoot will likewise grow upward even if "upside down." This is due to a process called gravitropism. Plants can feel gravity, and they know which way is up. Remember, with seeds that grow wild, not all of them were "put in right side up" - they just grew where they fell.

So why do so many people get hung up on which way seeds go in soil? If anyone doesn't believe me, check this out:

Gravitropism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitropism)

Or better yet, get a botony textbook and read it for yourself if you don't trust Wiki.

As a side note, this was my favorite biology prof I ever had. Through my junior and senior years a few select students including myself would go out on weekend expeditions collecting specimens for the herbarium (a library of plants with dried specimens). During these outings, we would most certainly drink (even though 3 / 4 of us were under 21), and listen to quite entertaining ramblings of the good Dr's younger years when he actively grew and partook of both the fine herb and shrooms. Since we had all known him since we were freshmen (we were all biology majors and he taught a freshman bio class we had taken), we had all become fairly close friends with him as we advanced to our major courses, and by the 3'rd year I guess he just felt comfortable enough telling those stories to us. Either way, it sure explains why he always got so animated in lectures about mycology (the study of fungi - ie mushrooms)!!!

[Weedhound]

Because it saves a few days growth time.

[Delta9Haze420]

Oh and one more thing on a personal note:

Stinky - if you happen to read this, I tried to PM you but it says I have insufficient privs to do so. As a mod I'm sure you would be able to tell me why I can't PM, or if there is a requirement to be able to PM, what it is. Also, I like your idea about my siggy (being the IUPAC name for THC), but for the life of me I can't find the signature edit console. I have scoured up and down my User CP a dozen times and clicked every option but to no avail. This is particularly perplexing to me because I have been posting and moderating message boards since the BBS and usenet days. Any help? If anyone else happens to know how to help, it would be appreciated. Thanks!

Regarding gravitropism - it *might* eliminate 36-48 hours of wait time by putting it in a certain direction. *Might*. But in the grand scheme of things, when it takes 2-3 months just to fully flower (I am talking about from the time pre-flowers are visible to harvest), I think that handling the germinated seed just to set it in right side up would cause just as much of a delay through shock, and even if not, two days is not that big of deal. Plenty of other factors contribute far more to the grow time than the tap root placement...

[elway07]

What's this tangent about? Seriously. If I am wrong, I apologize in advance, but it seems to me that you have posted this trying to pick an argument for the mere purpose to share with the group your expertise and knowledgeable skills in Botany. It just seems that way to me.
Some people plant their seeds after germination with the tap root ALREADY in the direction it is supposed to and will be going anyway. I could understand if someone posted a thread to "plant your tap roots UP" Now that would be wierd and something to thread and question.
All of us on here grow plants. Usually more than just one. Some of us are horticulturists. We just share what works and what makes sense.
good luck,
Elway

[socialistpete]

Delta I liked the post let me know that what I had tried several times is true. When I put my tap root pointing up they had the same rate of growth as the others that were pointing down. Thanks for the share bro.:)

[stinkyattic]

I believe that the practice of pointing the tap root down is related to the other practice of letting the seeds germinate in paper towels too long, until the tap root has attained significant length. I don't recommend this actually- paper towel fine, but I've read people advising others to let the root get 1/4-1/2 inch long, and I beleive that is not good at all!!!
That's why I plant my seeds as soon as the husk splits and the tap root is VISIBLE- the earlier you plant, the less time and energy is wasted by the tap root orienting itself properly.
D9, I'm gonna go put that in your siggy- if you go into your user CP, you look on the left side of the screen, and edit profile, options, signature, etc are in there.
You guys can't PM, but my email is in my signature.

[Chronisseur]

Stinky, Im sorry but I have to put this out there!

YOU are certainly the pro here, so I obviously value your opinion, BUT, I've had a 98% success rate using Bounty paper towels and pulling them at 1/4 inch.
The remaining two percent were thick husked seeds that I didnt wait for!

[stinkyattic]

Chron you are probably less clumsy than me, lol... I've broken many a tap root that way.
Oh wait, Hose Master, you ARE clumsy... maybe you just have fine motor skillz? :D

Oh edit, D9, I put in a sig for you but I think you just need a few more posts to hit the magic # (50) before it starts appearing on your info.

[Chronisseur]

OHHHHHH........:D

...I am pretty good with my fingers;)

PS: Can I EVER live that down?

[stinkyattic]

:D Nope!
But it's okay, because now we know you are good with your fingers, and honestly you can make up for hose deficiencies with finger skills.... HAHAHAHA

[Chronisseur]

...there's only ONE thing MY hose has be deficient of lately;)

[Help_Needed]

I studied botony heavily as an undergraduate, and during a lab one day I specifically remember the PhD remarking that it makes no difference which way the tap root faces; it will grow down even if initially facing up (there was a lecture about gravitropism). The shoot will likewise grow upward even if "upside down." This is due to a process called gravitropism. Plants can feel gravity, and they know which way is up. Remember, with seeds that grow wild, not all of them were "put in right side up" - they just grew where they fell.

Ya know, book learning is great and all, but then there's the real world.......

I "knew" about gravitropism when I planted my first batch of seeds in Jiffy Pellets, so I didn't worry too much which way the seed went in. I just pushed it down and and covered them up and waited for them to sprout.

Apparently, my little darlings skipped class the day that Mom Nature taught them the difference between up and down. Out of the five seeds I planted THREE of them grew completely upside down. The tap root shot straight up out of the soil, completely exposed to the air while the top of the plant coiled helplessly against the soil just under the seed. When the first root showed up I didn't worry about it, since I figured it would turn over on it's own as soon as it hit the air. When the other two poked through, and the first one stretched to 2.5 inches in length I realized I had a problem, so I a manually opened the pellets and replanted each of the seedlings.

So much for gravitropism lol.

[psteve]

I use the 'germ jar' method. I've always had better success letting the tap go longer before planting. About 3/4" seems to work best for me. I've never broken one yet!
Here's a pic I just took of some Kali Mist and Pez seeds that I popped yesterday. They're going in the dirt right now.

[the image reaper]

not just a matter of 'breaking' the taproot, the taproot is VERY sensitive to light, best to get it into the soil ASAP ... since the seed has a genetically predetermined amount of rooting 'energy', it's best to have that energy directed at it's surrounding soil ... and, with newbie growers, you have to be specific, or they will grab the ball and run with it ... like "hmmm, if it's OK to have 1/4" of taproot showing, maybe 6" will be better!" ... :wtf:

[psteve]

with newbie growers, you have to be specific, or they will grab the ball and run with it ... like "hmmm, if it's OK to have 1/4" of taproot showing, maybe 6" will be better!" ... :wtf:You're right. Never wait for more than an inch.:thumbsup:

[the image reaper]

right now, I'm like "hmmmm, if that first bowl felt so good, perhaps I should have another" ... :S5:

[Delta9Haze420]

Oh dear Jah - I only wanted to know why so many people thought it would hurt the plant if it wasnt planted tap down. I don't care about how much experience I have and just delete that if it's such a big deal. My point is - gravitropism is a scientific known. I am a scientist, that means unless proven wrong (in a scientific way), I believe what science has proven. Science has proven gravitropism. Science has proven the positive values of the herb. etc etc... Without science, the herb would never stand a chance of being legalized. I feel bad for your plants, help needed, but there is a logical reason as to why that happened, and it isn't that gravitropism doesn't exist. It means one of the other natural reactions plants have overtook gravitropism. Plus, it takes a little room for gravitropism to allow the root to turn down. Pellets aren't that big, and were probably too small to allow the root to fully turn down... Anyway nevermind, I am not looking for a flame war or a fight, everyone is so on edge all the time around here! You'd think a bunch of stoners would be more relaxed lol...

Thanks for the siggy stinky, I owe you one! :)

[PharmaCan]

Oh dear Jah - I only wanted to know why so many people thought it would hurt the plant if it wasnt planted tap down. I don't care about how much experience I have and just delete that if it's such a big deal. ... Anyway nevermind, I am not looking for a flame war or a fight, everyone is so on edge all the time around here! You'd think a bunch of stoners would be more relaxed lol...


D9 - No one is flaming you; just tossing around ideas and experiences - very typical for this forum, actually.

Relax and enjoy the ride. :thumbsup:

PC :smokin:

[elway07]

D9- I did say "that I apologized in advance if I was wrong." And if I was, I apologize. It just seemed like you were off on a tangent. Of course we are usually really laid back here, that is why I was curious to your post. Sometimes it is hard to determine tone and ones intentions in text. I am not at all suggesting that I couldn't have been way off.
I am a scientist as well and obviously wouldn't disagree with you on the positive and medicinal use of cannabis.
It just seemed to me when I read your posts on this thread that you seemed you had a lot to say about how most people on here that are saying "make sure to place the tap root down" were wrong and you were ready to back up scientifically there was no purpose to that. It seemed to bug you. example: "OK for awhile now I have seen time and again people say "PUT THE TAP ROOT DOWN!!!!" when advising people on how to put a germinated seed to soil. I am curious why so many people seem to think this is such a big issue?

I studied botony heavily as an undergraduate, and during a lab one day I specifically remember the PhD remarking that it makes no difference which way the tap root faces; it will grow down even if initially facing up (there was a lecture about gravitropism). The shoot will likewise grow upward even if "upside down." This is due to a process called gravitropism. Plants can feel gravity, and they know which way is up. Remember, with seeds that grow wild, not all of them were "put in right side up" - they just grew where they fell.

So why do so many people get hung up on which way seeds go in soil? If anyone doesn't believe me, check this out:

Gravitropism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or better yet, get a botony textbook and read it for yourself if you don't trust Wiki.

I just thought it was a huge tangent about something that doesn't really matter and you kept saying things like "if you don't believe me then... and better yet check here if you still don't believe etc..... I was just pointing out that it seemed a bit aggressive over a topic that I doubt too many people would be apprehensive to believe you. I guess I was just saying, put in your opinion and let others do it how they do it without being so aggressive by (for lack of a better word) shoving it down their/our throats. That's all.
Seriously, I was not trying to pick a fight by any means and I hope we are all cool. I/we are not on edge, I just found your post a bit aggressive, and I commented on it.
take care,
Elway

[elway07]

thanks PC I am glad that someone understood me:thumbsup:

[Delta9Haze420]

elway - I didn't mean to target you specifically, sorry if it came off that way. I in no way meant it as agressive, and certainly wasn't trying to push it down anyone's throat. But since I have only been here a few weeks, I feel like I have to back up my claims with evidence for people to believe me (ie - I feel like I haven't been around long enough to earn anyone's respect or trust, so I need to provide references and citations for the info I provide to justify to everyone it is legit info). I just want people to know that even though I am new around here, I am sincere in what I post, and don't just post BS answers - that there is a rhyme and reason to what I say. In time, I think many of you will (whether you like me or hate me) at least realize I know a few things (not everything by any means). But I do feel like I know much more than a typical n00b that may join the boards who could be 16 or 17 years old and not know the difference between a cotyledon and an internode. I just provided links to back up my claims since I am new. The prose and presentation may have been poor, but as you said it is very hard to detect tone via text. My apologies if anyone thought I was ranting. The only thing I rant about is the BS laws in the US and the pure evil of Harry Anslinger and the DEA. Now THAT will get me ranting until the sun comes up (or goes down).

I know it has backfired (for lack of a better term) - but I actually intended for the references to help identify me as someone who *doesn't* come out of nowhere acting like they know everything and not have any reputation or way to back themselves up in their knowledge. Instead of helping prove my sincereness, it seems like it has come off as me blowing my horn on how great I am etc etc. For that I truely apologize. My intention was the complete opposite. I hope some of you can at least see where I was coming from, even if you don't agree. Again, sorry - I just have the natural urge to need to include references (working in science for so long it beomes more than habbit - an addiction, almost, to provide citations).

May Jah shine on everyone and their ladies :)

***Edit

And I'd like to say PC and elway (and everyone else who was cool), thanks for being groovey about it and giving me the benefit of the doubt, much appreciated. :)

[Delta9Haze420]

I use the 'germ jar' method. I've always had better success letting the tap go longer before planting. About 3/4" seems to work best for me. I've never broken one yet!
Here's a pic I just took of some Kali Mist and Pez seeds that I popped yesterday. They're going in the dirt right now.

Nice Kali Mist, ps. That's what I've been posting pics of while it is flowering. My personal favorite strain for sure out of everything I've had so far :thumbsup:. It definitely lives up to it's reputation of being a growers favorite, and if I were in business it would surely be the personal stash strain of choice IMO.

[Weedhound]

What's the jar technique? I've never heard of it.

And I'm afraid I have to agree...my understanding of the tone of the thread was from somone new here popping in to tell us that we're all wrong about things. Yeah, we are normally a relaxed crowd. Until, perhaps, something like that happens. ;)

[psteve]

What's the jar technique? I've never heard of it.
Take a small jar, and line it with a folded paper towel.
Wad up another paper towel and put it inside to fill the space.
Put some water (with or without a drop/pinch of your favorite root growth stimulator, I used soluble micorrhizae) in the jar, enough to soak the paper towel, the drain the excess.
I've also seen people use a wet T-shirt.
Pull back the edge of the folded paper towel just enough to drop a seed halfway down, then replace the towel.
Repeat this all the way around the jar (see photo), as close as 1 seed per 1/2 inch.
Put the lid on, but not tight.
Put the jar in a warm place without too much light, and wait until the sprouts are the desired length for your preferred rooting method.

[Weedhound]

Cool, had terrible issues with last couple sets of seedlings so am looking for new ideas.....one that I don't have touch (read: drop, squish, ruin) are more my style for some reason. Do you guys use tweezers or what to move the seeds from one spot to the other....that's the part I'm really afraid of.

Thanks.

[elway07]

Delta- well your practically proved and admitted in your last post what I was accusing you of in the first place. Instead of just coming on here and post an opinion or begin a thread about something you felt you had the need to prove yourself because you are new in this community. I picked up on that right away. We take everyone's opinions here into account and try to learn what we can, but a rant about something that is of no consequence like a tap root, isn't going to alert people to your knowledge, I think it just raises an eyebrow. It did come across as a rant and a un-necessary drive to prove your worth. Yes you are new around here, and no I don't hate you. I have no beef with you whatsoever. We are laid back here, but you will find that we are a VERY honest community.
I guess what I was trying to say from the get go and it's been dropped, is that coming into a new community knowing that you must know more than some of the growers on here and finding a way to prove it in a hurry is not the attitude to have on here. We can smell it a mile away. Your knowledge of horticulture and botany will be helpful to others on here, and people that are more advanced than you will gladly help you when you are needing it. THAT is what this community is for. We make friends and combine our knowledge so we all have ALL the knowledge and help we need to be better and happier growers COMBINED.
That's it. we are cool, I was just being honest. I appreciate your reply and honesty on your last post to me. I hope all goes well with your plants.
oh BTW did you adding more nute decrease the yellowing on your girl?? Just curious and I haven't heard an update on that..
good luck,
Elway

[stinkyattic]

Oh dear Jah - I am a scientist, that means unless proven wrong (in a scientific way), I believe what science has proven. ..

PAGING D9!!! PAGING D9!!!! LOGIC NEEDED IN THE SPIRITUALITY FORUM!!!!

:D

[stinkyattic]

Oh wow... I posted that last bit before reading through the rest of this thread...
We've got a lot of brainiacs chiming in on this thread, with a lot of collective experience, can we all keep our egos on a short leash? Not to say I haven't been guilty of the same... but... this WAS an argument about gravitropism and now it's about whether any of us are trying to write the next definitive text on which direction to plant the fucking seed. This doesn't bode well for more complicated subjects, lol!!!

Can I say for the record, the tap root down thing is good to have posted as part of nOOb instructions- a lot of beginning growers DON'T have to scientific background to make judgements as to whether their tap is too long to just stick in the dirt any which way. Obviously we all know our shit here and can judge better. I'm going to continue to tell the nOObs to plant tap down, and I will also continue to plant my personal grow with teh tap, barely emerged, preferentially down, but I'm not gonna stress it if it's sideways!!

Excuse me while I return to my pesto avocado bagel. It is too early to argue about this any more.

[elway07]

sorry, I was just bugged. Shoulda left it alone.. Cheers!

[stinkyattic]

Oh I don't blame anyone in the least for wanting to argue the subject, really.
It's a good one.
No worries all around.

[Delta9Haze420]

PAGING D9!!! PAGING D9!!!! LOGIC NEEDED IN THE SPIRITUALITY FORUM!!!!

:D

LMAO haha *NICE* Stinky!!!!

[HARDDON]

To answer the original question without all the bullshit arguing or discussion...

THe tap root is placed DOWN for one reason only...

It reduces the stress on the plant.

It gets no more simple than that.

Less stress = more females.

Have fun.

[Delta9Haze420]

To answer the original question without all the bullshit arguing or discussion...

THe tap root is placed DOWN for one reason only...

It reduces the stress on the plant.

It gets no more simple than that.

Less stress = more females.

Have fun.

This is actually one of the best arguments I have heard for the issue.

However two things remain questioned: First - How much stress is a seedling really under with its tap root facing sideways or up? I am guessing not nearly as much stress as other factors like poor pH balance or moisture control create. Second - Is sex even determined by environmental conditions in Cannabis, or is it predetermined by chromosomal traits (as is the case in humans with the X-Y chromosome). Sex can be determined via one of those ways - genetic inheritance, or environment. I don't know which is the case for Cannabis, but I would say sex is much more dependent on genetics. Why, you ask? Because it is possible to genetically breed plants to produce "feminized seeds." If sex were determined environmentally, it would be extremely difficult to impossible to create a "female" seed type, because a bunch of them would go hermie or male based on the environment. Thus, there must be a very strong genetic component to what sex a seed will produce, and indeed every seed is probably already either male or female before it even germinates. This is just my "face value" take on the situation though...

I like Stinky's take on the matter though. Simple instructions for simple tasks. If it makes it easier to understand for n00bs to say place tap root down, then stick with a single method uniformly when teaching technique. We wouldn't want some prospective grower to think the tap root was the shoot and plant it so the root is above ground, now would we? I think this reason (avoiding n00bs mistaking the tap root for a shoot) is probably the best reason to promote planting tap roots down, and it follows along some of the same ideology as what stinky said.

Bottom line to someone who knows what they are doing though: direction of tap root when put to soil is probably one of the least influential things in growing, all other factors considered. Well discussed topic though...

[palerider7777]

im a big fan of letting people say what they want

[HARDDON]

Hey...

Just stick the fricking seeds in the fricking dirt and let them at it.

What a collective waste of time over something as simple as sticking a seed in the dirt.

Give them the ultimate in temps water and light and you get 75% females everytime.

Problem solved.

[Divestoned]

Im gonna let loose a secret.....i take a coffee cup w/a lil water and a splash of "b1" or "thrive alive",toss in the beans,set it under the kitchen sink and a day or two later.....sprouts.
As far as the tap root discussion goes.....better to start your root headed the right way if you have the option.

Dive:stoned: