does the believe in god

[timbell000]

destroy the concept of free will?

[stinkyattic]

the belief, you mean?
I don't think so. Teh concept of God the Clockmaker (divine design, the rest is up to us) does not preclude free will.

[jdmarcus59]

to belive in God is an act of free will, God has given man free will so that we could chose
to have a loving relationship with him. if God did not give man free will then we would be
nothing more then robots, and you cant have a loving relatoinship with a robot who is only
doing what he has been programed to do.

[Hardcore Newbie]

It depends on your definition of God, really. If you believe there is a being that knows everything and is all powerful, then free will can't exist. Even if an all knowing being wasn't a god of sorts, then it's still impossible to have free will, we'd all just be acting out what this being already knows.

[jdmarcus59]

It depends on your definition of God, really. If you believe there is a being that knows everything and is all powerful, then free will can't exist. Even if an all knowing being wasn't a god of sorts, then it's still impossible to have free will, we'd all just be acting out what this being already knows.

what you just said makes no sence, but you had the free will to say it, and you have the free will to belive it. now you have the free will to read this are not read this. what are you going to do?
are you going to respond and say what ever you want, or is somone going to come up behind you and put a gun to your head
and make you do somthing YOU dont want to do. as in making you
do somthing aganist you FREE WILL.:)

[Hardcore Newbie]

I can't do anything that hasn't already been written, if there is an all knowing being. If i did anything else, then that being would be wrong. God is supposedly an all knowing being. I can't do anything else besides what god already sees. It'd be different if this apparent god weren't infallible, then we might be able to change our destinies.

If god sees me die a certain way, wouldn't it be impossible for me to die in any other way?

If god sees what meals I will eat next week, can I magically choose different ones or not eat all together?

[delusionsofNORMALity]

the idea of an omniscient deity would imply that the future is predetermined (how could god know the future if it didn't already exist?) and that would mean that your choices are merely an illusion. this leads to the conclusion that life is futile, as all of your decisions are already made.

[Hardcore Newbie]

If you want to see it that way, it doesn't necessarily mean that our paths are set. God may know what we're going to do, but that could change at any given moment, and he can keep up with the change.
This does not compute :p

Wouldn't that mean that God saw that we wanted to eat pizza, and knew exactly when we'd change our minds to have some burgers? because if he didn't know that we were going to change our minds, he does not see all. If it was already laid out that we were going to change our minds, did we really change them? No, we did exactly as we were supposed to.

[Oneironaut]

If there is an omniscient God, then he knows you better than you know your best friend. Better than anybody has ever known their best friend. He knows every little nook and cranny of your psychology, how your mind works down to the last detail. He's monitored your every action throughout your whole life, and done a thorough analysis of your behaviorisms and decision-making skills. He knows exactly how to put himself in your shoes. How could he not know what you're going to be up to in the future?

Of course, there is no God, and I still believe there's no such thing as free will. The way I explain it is like this. Everything either has a cause, or is completely random. That's basic logic. Every event that ever happens is the result of a chain of causes, except for quantum things which are completely random and can't be predicted. If something is not random, it must have a cause, and if something has no cause then it must be random. Our thoughts are no exception to this logical tautology.

A lot of people think we make decisions in our heads that don't have causes in the real world. That is, it's not just a chemical reaction in your head; it's not something that's just inevitable given your perception of reality and the structure of your brain. However, they fail to realize that it cannot be this way unless your thoughts are random. If one decision was not chosen over another for some definable reason, then it was chosen at random.

The brain is nothing more than a complex computation device that tries to calculate what the best decisions are based on the information that's already in the brain and the new information that is streaming into the brain all the time. Your thoughts have definable causes: your experiences with the real world, your memories, your genetically programmed instincts, whatever chemicals might be affecting your brain at the time, etc. If there were no causes which resulted in your stream of thought, it would be completely random, and you'd go psychotic.

Human thoughts are no exception to the chain of causes and effects (plus quantum randomness) that has been going on since the Big Bang. As far as I'm concerned, "free will" is an incoherent concept. How can something not be random and not have definable causes that makes it predictable ahead of time? It's not logically possible.

[Hardcore Newbie]

You didn't understand what I said I guess... he could know exactly what we're going to do, but then if er change our mind, then what he sees will change at that moment.I'm not sure if your contraction means "we were" or "we are". usually it wouldn't matter, but since we're talking about supposed futures and tenses are getting switched, it's a big deal :p

In any case, if God didn't know that I was going to change my mind, then he doesn't know everything. If god doesn't know exactly how my life will transpire, that means he is not the all knowing. it wouldn't matter to us on earth (the ones that can't see the entire future) what we perceive as a choice. if I ever change my mind about something, god knew of that change before i was born. Even my supposed choices are made before I was born.

If god can only see the choices I make as I make them, then he isn't all knowing. How can he be all knowing if he didn't know my 'choices' before they're made?

====================
Actually, come to think of it, an all knowing being and anall powerful being can't even coexist. If a being is all powerful, then it can do whatever it wants. If a being is all knowing, then it knows everything in the past present and future. How can the future be defined to an all powerful being? The all powerful being should have the power to change the future. If the all powerful being could do so, the all knowing being would be wrong, and therefore, not all knowing. The fact that these two ideas are supposed to belong to a single entity makes it worse, as the being can't exist.
====================

Man I love weed, I have to read this tomorrow. I put it in equal signs because I love it :D

[Hardcore Newbie]

I got to thinking on this, and I've drawn a conclusion that even the idea of an all powerful being itself is an impossibility. All powerful would include the power to see the future, yes?

Anyone care to rebut or are we all in agreement :D?

[jdmarcus59]

I can't do anything that hasn't already been written, if there is an all knowing being. If i did anything else, then that being would be wrong. God is supposedly an all knowing being. I can't do anything else besides what god already sees. It'd be different if this apparent god weren't infallible, then we might be able to change our destinies.

If god sees me die a certain way, wouldn't it be impossible for me to die in any other way?

If god sees what meals I will eat next week, can I magically choose different ones or not eat all together?

God works through your free will.

[Hardcore Newbie]

God works through your free will.
What does that even mean? He's controlling me?

[jdmarcus59]

What does that even mean? He's controlling me?

no he is not controling you, you have free will to do what you want
if you did not have free will then you would be nothing more then a programed robot, destened to do only what you have been programed to do, but God has given you free will so that you can choses to belive in him are not belive, and God works through your free will to work all things out for the good,I went to prison once and even tho it was not Gods will that I broke the law and had to go to prison, he used that prison experience to my good so that I would
come to repentence, are to a point were I had a change of heart.
so God took what was bad and turned it around for my good, it was not Gods perfect wiil that I had to go down to the pit, but because of his great love for us he is able to take a lump of coal and turn it to a stone of great value:)
premium stone of great worth

[Hardcore Newbie]

So, you quoted my original passage with no intentions of answering the actual questions. You've answered my request for clarification, but your clarification still has nothing to do with the original questions. You've given me an "answer" in a way that any politician would. So my questions stand (to all :))

"If god sees me die a certain way, wouldn't it be impossible for me to die in any other way?

If god sees what meals I will eat next week, can I magically choose different ones or not eat all together? "

[jdmarcus59]

So, you quoted my original passage with no intentions of answering the actual questions. You've answered my request for clarification, but your clarification still has nothing to do with the original questions. You've given me an "answer" in a way that any politician would. So my questions stand (to all :))

"If god sees me die a certain way, wouldn't it be impossible for me to die in any other way?

If god sees what meals I will eat next week, can I magically choose different ones or not eat all together? "

just because God can see what you are going to eat next week
does not mean you have no choses on what you eat, God does not program you, you eat what YOU want to eat, not what He whats you to eat, I dont know why this is so hard for you to understand

[delusionsofNORMALity]

just because God can see what you are going to eat next week
does not mean you have no choses on what you eat, God does not program you, you eat what YOU want to eat, not what He whats you to eat, I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand
whether it is an object, an action or a concept it must already exist before it can be known. an omniscient deity would have known at the beginning of time that i was going to eat that piece of fried chicken in the refrigerator tonight. so the decision was already made at the beginning of time. the decision i made at the last moment to eat that chicken was nothing more than an illusion if the outcome was known in advance. no matter how you cloak it, foreknowledge of the outcome of an event eliminates the possibility of free choice at the moment of the event.

[Hardcore Newbie]

just because God can see what you are going to eat next week
does not mean you have no choses on what you eat, God does not program you, you eat what YOU want to eat, not what He whats you to eat, I dont know why this is so hard for you to understand

Again, you didn't directly answer the questions. Since you're unwilling or unable to answer them, I will answer them for you.

Since God has seen HN's death, it would of course be impossible to die in any other way. To be able to do so would mean that God is fallible, and this is not so.
No, you cannot magically choose another meal, for the same reason. The ability to change the future from what God has seen would be to overpower God, and God is all powerful.If you don't believe these statements to be the case, please answer the previous questions, with your rebuttal.

And please, if you wish to rebut, don't sidestep the questions, take them head on. If your belief that free will is possible in spite of a being knowing the absolute future, then the questions themselves should be easily answered.

[Iambreathingin]

We're just a chemical reaction tho'. Everything we do or "chose" to do is based on the previous parts of our lives and the matter inside and around us.

There was a philosopher who said that if you knew where every single piece of matter was in the universe, and knew how it would react to every other piece, you could predict what the universe would look like any numbers of years into the future, right down to the evoloution of humans and what they got up to in detail.

[jdmarcus59]

whether it is an object, an action or a concept it must already exist before it can be known. an omniscient deity would have known at the beginning of time that i was going to eat that piece of fried chicken in the refrigerator tonight. so the decision was already made at the beginning of time. the decision i made at the last moment to eat that chicken was nothing more than an illusion if the outcome was known in advance. no matter how you cloak it, foreknowledge of the outcome of an event eliminates the possibility of free choice at the moment of the event.

yes God does have foreknowledge, and what that means is, that he knows what we are going to choses to do, but he does not make us do anything aganst are FREE WILL, its a deep subject and people can go round and round about it, so I will just leave it at that. NEXT.:)

[jdmarcus59]

Again, you didn't directly answer the questions. Since you're unwilling or unable to answer them, I will answer them for you.

Since God has seen HN's death, it would of course be impossible to die in any other way. To be able to do so would mean that God is fallible, and this is not so.
No, you cannot magically choose another meal, for the same reason. The ability to change the future from what God has seen would be to overpower God, and God is all powerful.If you don't believe these statements to be the case, please answer the previous questions, with your rebuttal.

And please, if you wish to rebut, don't sidestep the questions, take them head on. If your belief that free will is possible in spite of a being knowing the absolute future, then the questions themselves should be easily answered.

God knew that you were going to write on this web site, becuse He
know the begining from the end right? but did God make you write
on this web site, are out of a act of free will you choose to write on this web site? like I said before people can go round and round
over things like this, but I choose not to lol.if this makes no sence
to you then Iam sorry. I thought my answers were very clear. peace and have a nice day.:)

[Hardcore Newbie]

Your answers are not answers. They're *really* close but I'm still looking for that "no, you can't do it differently" which I've already filled in for you.

I'll ask one more time and hopefully I can get an answer. If not, then I'll stop. I'm looking for a direct answer (yes, no, or sometimes/maybe) with your explanation.

Can I live my life any differently than the way God has pictured it to happen?

You've got the explanation part down, but you refuse to answer yes or no (or maybe/sometimes).

Have a good one.

[jdmarcus59]

Your answers are not answers. They're *really* close but I'm still looking for that "no, you can't do it differently" which I've already filled in for you.

I'll ask one more time and hopefully I can get an answer. If not, then I'll stop. I'm looking for a direct answer (yes, no, or sometimes/maybe) with your explanation.

Can I live my life any differently than the way God has pictured it to happen?

You've got the explanation part down, but you refuse to answer yes or no (or maybe/sometimes).

Have a good one.
ok Ill play lol, can you live your life any differently then God plan?
the qustion really should be can you live your life differently then
Gods will for your life, and the hundered dollar answer is
"Drum roll please" YES, you can live your life out side of Gods will,
because we have free will, if we did not have free will adam and eve would not have sinned.so the reason God knows what you are
going to have for dinner, is because He can SEE the choice you will make He does not make the choice for you.He can see your life from begining to end, He see the choices you make here, and He see the Choices you will make there, that is why there is a judgement, God will judge you and I on the choices we make, do we choice to belive and be saved, or do we choice not to belive.
we can go down a road that leads us no where,then we can chose to leave that road and follow another, and God will see the choice we made.this is what the Bible teaches, it teaches free will.
THE END:thumbsup:

[Hardcore Newbie]

ok Ill play lol, can you live your life any differently then God plan?
the qustion really should be can you live your life differently then
Gods will for your life, and the hundered dollar answer is
"Drum roll please" YES, you can live your life out side of Gods will,
because we have free will, if we did not have free will adam and eve would not have sinned.so the reason God knows what you are
going to have for dinner, is because He can SEE the choice you will make He does not make the choice for you.He can see your life from begining to end, He see the choices you make here, and He see the Choices you will make there, that is why there is a judgement, God will judge you and I on the choices we make, do we choice to belive and be saved, or do we choice not to belive.
we can go down a road that leads us no where,then we can chose to leave that road and follow another, and God will see the choice we made.this is what the Bible teaches, it teaches free will.
THE END:thumbsup:Well, since you changed my question, and thus avoided it yet again, I'll stop asking you. I really thought you'd answer this time, and I didn't think it'd be that difficult.

Anyone else want a crack at the question?

"Can I live my life any differently than the way God has already seen it happen?"

[snicklefritz1825]

"Can I live my life any differently than the way God has already seen it happen?"

Yea you can that is your free will. You make your choices not God, If we didn't have free will then we would be perfect and not living in a life of sin. God knows what you are going to do in the future but that does not mean he made that decision for you.

[Hardcore Newbie]

Yea you can that is your free will. You make your choices not God, If we didn't have free will then we would be perfect and not living in a life of sin. God knows what you are going to do in the future but that does not mean he made that decision for you.The explanation in your answer contradicts your "yea you can" statement.

You've stated that "yea [I] can" live my life differently than God has seen it, which contradicts the part where you say that God knows what I'm going to do in the future. The ideas that you present are in opposition with each other.

Perhaps you can elaborate.

[jdmarcus59]

hardcore newbie, lets take a look at your qustion " can I live my life any differently then the way God has already seen it happen" a key word here is ALREADY, so if you were to ask the qustion that way then the answer would be NO, if I ALREADY lived my life I could not change it. That would be a true statement. The promblem is that we have not ALREADY lived are life, we are still living are lifes, there fore we are still making choises. Are life have not been written down and then we just go through are lifes living out what has already been written, God see how are lifes will be cause He see the choices we will make. Are you making choices today? are or you just a robot living out what you have been programed to do? so the answer to your qustion is no, why? because you put the word ALREADY IN your
qustion.

[snowblind]

god is like the roads, we are the car. just because there are routes planned out. doesnt mean we have to follow them. we have the free will to go where we want. in the context of this argument god just knows all outcomes. the factors and variables that contribute to the outcome are ours to choose

[Hardcore Newbie]

hardcore newbie, lets take a look at your qustion " can I live my life any differently then the way God has already seen it happen" a key word here is ALREADY, so if you were to ask the qustion that way then the answer would be NO, if I ALREADY lived my life I could not change it. That would be a true statement. The promblem is that we have not ALREADY lived are life, we are still living are lifes, there fore we are still making choises. Are life have not been written down and then we just go through are lifes living out what has already been written, God see how are lifes will be cause He see the choices we will make. Are you making choices today? are or you just a robot living out what you have been programed to do? so the answer to your qustion is no, why? because you put the word ALREADY IN your
qustion.No, you changed the basis of my question from

"Can I live my life any differently than the way God has already seen it happen?"
to
"can you live your life differently thenGods will for your life?"

That's a completely different question.

The 'already' refers to what God's has seen of the future (namely, all of it), not if I've already lived my life. He has already seen the future, because if he didn't, He wouldn't be all knowing. And not being all knowing would invalidate His entire existence.

But, if it pleases you, I'll rephrase my question, and drop the 'already'. The basis of the question remains the same, it really makes no difference.

Can I live my life any differently than the way God has seen it happen?

[jdmarcus59]

No, you changed the basis of my question from

"Can I live my life any differently than the way God has already seen it happen?"
to
"can you live your life differently thenGods will for your life?"

That's a completely different question.

The 'already' refers to what God's has seen of the future (namely, all of it), not if I've already lived my life. He has already seen the future, because if he didn't, He wouldn't be all knowing. And not being all knowing would invalidate His entire existence.

But, if it pleases you, I'll rephrase my question, and drop the 'already'. The basis of the question remains the same, it really makes no difference.

Can I live my life any differently than the way God has seen it happen?
you still have the word has in there.

[Hardcore Newbie]

you still have the word has in there.
Yeah, because God HAS seen the future. You said the problem word with the question was "already". Now it's "has". If I change the question again, what's the next problem word... seen? Live? God?

let's take an aside before I rephrase the question (or if there is even a need to rephrase it). Do you agree or disagree with the following statement:

God has seen the future

If you agree with this statement, then there's no need to rephrase the question. If you disagree with it, then my point is proven anyway.

[jdmarcus59]

Yeah, because God HAS seen the future. You said the problem word with the question was "already". Now it's "has". If I change the question again, what's the next problem word... seen? Live? God?

let's take an aside before I rephrase the question (or if there is even a need to rephrase it). Do you agree or disagree with the following statement:

God has seen the future

If you agree with this statement, then there's no need to rephrase the question. If you disagree with it, then my point is proven anyway.
my friend I have given the correct answers but you have the free will to belive in what you want to belive, so live out what ever you
choses to belive, and good luck by:)

[jdmarcus59]

Yea you can that is your free will. You make your choices not God, If we didn't have free will then we would be perfect and not living in a life of sin. God knows what you are going to do in the future but that does not mean he made that decision for you.

iam glad sombody understands logic:)

[jdmarcus59]

Yeah, because God HAS seen the future. You said the problem word with the question was "already". Now it's "has". If I change the question again, what's the next problem word... seen? Live? God?

let's take an aside before I rephrase the question (or if there is even a need to rephrase it). Do you agree or disagree with the following statement:

God has seen the future

If you agree with this statement, then there's no need to rephrase the question. If you disagree with it, then my point is proven anyway.
once again past tence

[Hardcore Newbie]

So since it's past tense, it's not a valid question? Are you saying it's not a fair question to ask if God, at any time in the past, has looked into the future? I think it's a completely fair question, and no matter how many times you say you've answered the question, you really haven't. Sorry, you've answered my question once, but completely misinterpreted what the question said and actually rearranged the question.

My question is actually quite simple. Let's go over your interpretation of my question.


... so if you were to ask the qustion that way then the answer would be NO, if I ALREADY lived my life I could not change it. That would be a true statement. The promblem is that we have not ALREADY lived are life, we are still living are lifes, ...

This is not what my question asks, my question does not assume that we have already lived our lives. In fact, it asks "can I live my life..." which actually indicates that it is a question about the present and the future. So I'm not quite sure where you're getting this "already lived our lives" part.

Without the subject matter, the question reads "Can I do ______ (something in the future) if _________ (something from the past.

if we were to change the subject and ask the same type of question, we might have an example such as "Can I (still drive my car) if I've (busted my stering wheel)".

the answer would be
"yes, you can but you're almost guranteed to get into an accident" or
"no, newer cars disable themselves if a critical part of the car is not functioning (hypothetical answer, of course)"

It's not that hard to answer this question ,so I fail to see what's "wrong" with my question.

And Snickle's "logic" has contradicted itself. Therefore, it's not logical. You might want it to be, but it isn't. My previous post states why.


what you just said makes no sence, ...
...I dont know why this is so hard for you to understand I don't see why you've been dodging and then misinterpreting my question.


...its a deep subject and people can go round and round about it...
like I said before people can go round and round over things like thisI assure you, the argument doesn't go round and round when you understand the question.

[Hardcore Newbie]

I'd like to add....

Yes, I can be a thorough mother fucker when I have to be :).

[snowblind]

iam glad sombody understands logic:)


umm i do get what your saying. i just dont know if i believe in the being.

like i think that god is the personification of the universe and the universe is the sterilisation of god

there is probably a happy medium in the middle.

but i really have to cut out 99 % of the core three religons

mix in some eastern philosphies and religons

add in some metaphysics and nureal kinetics

and im about there.

its dumb i have faith. i just dont know what it is in.

peace and love and baggies full of never ending weed

[Pass That Shit]

No, you changed the basis of my question from

"Can I live my life any differently than the way God has already seen it happen?"
to
"can you live your life differently thenGods will for your life?"

That's a completely different question.

The 'already' refers to what God's has seen of the future (namely, all of it), not if I've already lived my life. He has already seen the future, because if he didn't, He wouldn't be all knowing. And not being all knowing would invalidate His entire existence.

But, if it pleases you, I'll rephrase my question, and drop the 'already'. The basis of the question remains the same, it really makes no difference.

Can I live my life any differently than the way God has seen it happen?

NO! You can't. He knows every move you will make in the future. Example, if you reply to this post, he knows what you're gonna say regardless of how many times you change your mind before posting.

[king of the world]

i think there is freewill but god already knows what your choice is going to be, you get what im saying?:wtf:

[delusionsofNORMALity]

NO! You can't. He knows every move you will make in the future. Example, if you reply to this post, he knows what you're gonna say regardless of how many times you change your mind before posting.
now the question becomes "does this negate the concept of free will?" by giving the deity complete foreknowledge you have turned us into puppets enacting a prewritten script with no say as to its outcome. this would seem to make reality itself a rather pointless exercise and its creator a fool for the redundancy of the whole thing.

[Hardcore Newbie]

NO! You can't. He knows every move you will make in the future. Example, if you reply to this post, he knows what you're gonna say regardless of how many times you change your mind before posting.Not only that, he's known of every change, he's known every thought, and every choice I've have ever made and ever will make, since the beginning of time. Doesn't sound like free will to me

[king of the world]

well just because he knows doesnt mean that you do not have free will

let me use an analogy: if you video tape your self, then at that moment you have free will, and if you rewatch the tape you know what is going to happen but still at the moment of creation of the video you still had freewill.

so in a way our lives are like a video tape that god already watched. but we still have freewill at the moment of the video recording.

[Hardcore Newbie]

Yeah, I had free will at that moment because it`s in the present. Then I`d be watching something that`s previously happened.

God`s video tape is something that hasn`t happened yet.