New leaves coming out "wrinkled" and small.

[bonobo66]

I have 2 plants doing well in a pro-mix soil in a small cab under a 70w HPS. Both are bagseed. One is tall and stretchy, the other is short with very short internoidal spaces.
The tall one is training horizontally pretty well and was going superb, but it started to grow new leaves on the upcoming side shoots that are weird and wrinkly. At first I thought they would "smooth out", but they haven't. They are small, wrinkly and look like little stars. The leaves are ulso curled up from the bottom in such a way as to make them look "toothy".
I have no problems on other plant and did only the mildest of fertilizing once (very diluted).
I do not know how to post pics as I am a stupid and old noob, but I really would appreciate some help from you "kind" experts!
Please be gently, it is my first time. Oh, yeah. I also have fungus mites. Could it be related?

[stinkyattic]

Fungus mites or gnats?
If you have gnats, you have standing water or a swampy condition somewhere.
Do your pots have built-in drip trays? If so, that could be contributing to ALL your problems.
Excessively wet soil conditions breed bugs.
They also make the plant act in funny ways, like sho deficiency symptoms even in the presence of adequate food, because the roots can't uptake it without enough oxygen present.
Did you add perlite to the promix? Is it promix regular or 'BX'?
pH could also be a culprit, especially in a peat-based medium. And the combination of low pH and high sogginess will bring out the WORST in your plants.
You will also want to start feeding. If the plants have more than 5 sets of leaves, they are overdue for it.

[bonobo66]

Come to think of it, I got the pro-mix ("pro formula?". Is that normal?) AFTER I potted those. They are in a weird organic potting soil mix that has a little too much organic matter for my liking (wood chippish stuff) and I remember reading that the mite babies feed on organic matter in the soil. Hmm...

So should I repot? I bought a better container to fit my small 15" x 15" growing space. Are you suggesting I mix the Pro-Mix with some perlite (50/50?)? Do you think it is ok do to it? It's now or never in terms of the screen, cause I am touching it but not tangled yet.

I am not using pots with built in lips, and I think the gnats just came in when I stupidly first brought soil into the environment and never sterilized well.

Anyway, about the leaves. What does it sound like to you? They look like spindly little wrinkled starfish. Almost like they are fried-ish. dangled a small computer fan in there yesterday to blow across the leaves -in addition the the one I already have in the cabinet (which was mounted too low and so isn't really blowing ACROSS the leaves.)

Well, this is a learning experience for me. These are bagweed and I have 4 Bubblegum babies vegging under some cfl's that I will probably make into my mommies I guess (?).

Lots of fun this first time thing... Thanks for the help, StinkyAttic. :rastasmoke:

[stinkyattic]

You can repot in flower. The plants want a gallon of dirt for each foot of main stem.

Wood chips aren't good.

A pH meter or liquid indicator is important if you aren't certain of your soil pH, and you will need it eventually anyway to help troubleshoot any deficiency/tox symptoms you see.

If you have an agway near you, get the composted cow manure with humus, mix in 40% perlite, repot into that, and watch your plants look better in DAYS- seriously, it's rich organic goodness and pH buffered at 6.8-6.9. I use it personally throughout my grow and have NO problems with pH EVER.

Bugs, treat tthem with pyrethrin. Do it NOW becuase once you get bud-set, you're VERY limited in what you can do about pests.

Oh- and you need to fertilize!!!!

[rhizome]

Sounds like either pH problem or thrips.

[bonobo66]

What are thrips?

[stinkyattic]

Shitty little bugs whose life cycle includes a stage in the soil and a larva that lives on the leaves and eats them, especially the lowest leaves. A bad infestation can cause some real damage.

[bonobo66]

Thanks for the help. I will repot in better soil, feed those babies some fertilizer, etc.

I broke up some BT donuts (tiny, tiny, crumb) in some water and fed it. Maybe that will help too.

[stinkyattic]

Beneficials FTW!

[bonobo66]

Please pray to the Ganja God for me. I repotted the 2 plants from the crappy thing I was using into a larger (but taller) container. One of the plants is short and bushy and very healthy looking, the other is a tall stretchy plant that I was training horizontally-ish. The tall one developed the wrinkly leaves on the new side branches I was trying to grow to the same height SCROG-style.
When I was replanting, I noticed that the pot hadn't drained well and it felt like the whole thing was one thick overly wet heavy clod of roots. Gnats or Thirps too, I think. Anyway, I transferred to a nice fluffy mix of half perlite with fertilzer built in and half pro-mix pro formula. Then I watered quite fully. I will hope for the best. Temp in cab is good at about 81 or so.
Can anyone tell me how to post photos?

[WildFire.ca]

it hard to fix a problem with no visual reference When u post, if you scroll down there is a manage attachments button press it. Then browse and click the pic you want, then press up load. Its like playing telaphone. You phone the doctor and tell him about your sick brother and he prescribes pills based on your observations.

[bonobo66]

OK, I am attempting to post my first pics. Here is a picture of my grow cab and the 2 plants. One sick, the other doing well. Please help now that you can see what I'm talking about, Doctor!

[stinkyattic]

Gaddamn! I have never seen anything that extreme EVER. I see edge curl-up (heat) but those wrinkles are the worst I've seen-
Did you ever get around to measuring your pH? Even with a repot, you are still going to have to fix the soil that's still there.

[bonobo66]

I never checked the PH. I guess you think I really should, huh. I never did any big nuking or whatever you call it, so I would be surprised if it was THAT extreme. Also, why does the other plant look so okay?

Anyway, what is the best and cheapest way to test PH?

[stinkyattic]

Other one looks not half bad actually. Healthy.
CHECK YOUR PH!!! DO IT NOW BEFORE I SEND MY MIDGET ARMY OVER THERE TO PUNCH YOU IN THE KNEES!!!!!!

[bonobo66]

Okay man, tell me what to buy and where and I'll check the PH!

[stinkyattic]

HAHA any hydro shop or aquarium supply house should sell REALLY cheap liquid pH indicator. $200 meters are for hydro geeks, lol! I use liquid- it's accurate enough for soil growers and is like $8 for a lifetime supply.

(and that's WOMAN to you :D)

[bonobo66]

Hey, I've got pool PH testing stuff. Will that work? How can I do it?

I am in soil. Do I get a "runoff" somehow. I think I have read that, but how is it done?

Pool kit test is basically a small test tube to which 5 drops of a chemical are added to see the color change.

[stinkyattic]

I think you can use the pool test kit.. ?? never used one though.
First, test your tap water.
Next, run some tap water through your plant. Catch the first few tablespoons of runoff. Put in a clear container. Add test solution.
Then use your match skillz to figure out if the runoff is higher or lower than the tap water, and by how much... this is NOT an exact science, you have to use your instinct.
Say your tap water is an even 7.0 (neutral) and your runoff is 6.0 ( acid). Your soil is lowering the water pH pretty significantly, and will be a lot LOWER than 6.0.
If your runoff is like 6.8, using 7.0 flush water, your pH is likely PERFECT. Get it?

[rhizome]

Pool test kits aren't really the right range- I don't think that mine will read any lower than 6.8. So if yer pH is 4.5, the indicator's still gonna say 6.8.

Make sure that yer test kit range covers the pH yer shooting for, with a little room over/under. Ie- if you're looking to set @ 6.5, make sure yer test is accurate down to 6.0, 6.2 and up at least as high as 7.0.

[bonobo66]

I bought one of those Ph meters that you plant in the soil and followed the directions, but I don't know... it is only measured as 4~8 and mine came up as aound 6, but it didn't seem to move much. My hunch is that my PH is not off the charts weird cause 1) I never did much to the soil at all and 2) The other plant is a healthy color.
I am posting alot of pics here. What you will see is 2 grow containers. The first is the 15 inch square, 3 foot high cabiner with a 70w HPS converted security light (bulb old?) and the second is thing I made from a phototron shell. I cannot use the crappy fluorescent fixtures so I just hung some CFL. I have 5 hanging, 3 are about 75W equivalent, and 2 are 100W equivalent (from 3 fixtures, 2 Y-converters) I do not know if this is enough light. I know more is better, but how will this work for vegging? Okay?
The cabinet contains the 2 bagseeds that, as you can see started flowering yesterday I think! My first time to ever see this! I am like Madonna! I feel like a virgin touched for te very first time! Anyway, is it my imagination or is it starting to perk up a bit? Maybe? I bought some nice, organic fertilizer and will feed it soon in addition to the mild fertilizer taste I gave them 2 days ago from some old flower miracle-gro crap my mom had that I was too afraid to go stronger with.
I look forward to comments. Thanks Stinky and Rhizome. You are kind to help out so much. If I an ever return the favor...:smokin:

[stinkyattic]

Let's see, mirrors are not desirable in a grow. Flat white is far preferable.
Soil pH meters are far less accurate than a liquid test, but if that's what you've got, be sure the soil is moist or it will read inaccurately.
"Around 6" is not good. You need to be above 6.5.

[bonobo66]

OKay, So Do I add lime? Is that right? As for mirrors, I will go out and get some spray paint, glossy I guess? On the Ph test, I got it muddy-ish as they said on the directions and tried several times. Each time the reading was around 6. The meter only has 4 lines. cheap little thing.
What about the amount of light? Any knowledge of that. My guess is that I have about 7000 lumens scattered in a circle firectly around those plants, since I lower the lights as close to the plants as possible.

[stinkyattic]

Flat white. Or put up white posterboard. Or mylar camping emergency blankets. When you go out for paint, for God's sake get a liquid indicator!!! :D (My midget army is still standing by... hahaha)
Light? As much as you can! :D
From what I see in the pics, light is not a problem for ya. The stoutness is good.

[bonobo66]

Okay. I did it. Here is the result (see pic). Now, I'm a little color blind, but it looked to me like it is somewhere between 5 and 6, closer maybe to 5. So I'll say around 5.4 which would be maybe too acidic. Do you agree with my view of the color? So I need to make less acidic I guess. Suggestions?

Also, I painted the panels of the Phototron white on the inside, so it is all white accept for some trim in there. An improvement anyway. I will get to the rest soon.

So do my plant's symptoms of the leaves curling up TOWARDS and INTO the sides -are they consisent with the diagnosis of too acid of a soil? If not... Well, it must be something else. Also, there is the other plant's health to consider...

[stinkyattic]

Bingo, your soil is a little low.
Huh, I never saw that kit before. The one I'm used to is the GH one, bottle of liquid that actually reads in closer intervals. VERY VERY accurate, for a liquid test. It's VERY cheap and you should pick one up next time you are at the hydro shop.. you have to go there anyway to get some plant pH up.
Was that a liquid or one of those pellet things that you can only use once? ecause I see some crud in the bottom of the tube. But at least you know what your problem was! (Rhizome is always right BTW! It's his superhero skill- infallibility in matters of horticulture, lol!!!)
Okay, the way that I would deal with this if I were you would be to pick up some pH UP and using your test kit, make up a gallon of solution to flush with that actually reads 7.0- on that kit, green. Make the solution very carefully, add SLOOOWLY, almost drop by drop, stopping the moment it turns green. This is called titrating to the endpoint, the endpoint being your chosen pH.
You can use this solution to pour through your soil. Catch the runoff of that soil drench and test THAT. It should not be green any more.
Adjusting soil pH is an art. And you are about to become freaking Van Gogh. (Ear surgeon skillz not required)

[bonobo66]

Wow, what a learning experience this is! That test was a little one-shot pill deal where you dissolve some soil in the tube and add the powder from the pill.
I will visit a place and get what you suggest.
This "flushing" business. I think I read that that involves adding 3 times the content of the pot in water. Is that right? Or are you saying I shoulld just do a gallong? I have a 4 gallon pot by the way.

[stinkyattic]

General Hydroponics pH Control Kit (http://www.plantitearth.com/store/product.asp?pid=304&catid=65)

This is the stuff you want. The indicator you can buy alone for CHEAP. But you need up/down too.

You read right about flushing. 3 x volume.

Soil in the tube isn't nearly as accurate as testing the RUNOFF. That's standard practice. You get a far better profile of what overall conditions throughout the pot are, what the roots are seeing, you know? Anything that is available including undesirable salts contributes to the pH this way. Plus soil from the surface of the pot is never indicative of conditions deep withing the pot, where root activity is and there is less oxygen, so chemicals could potentially exist in different forms.

[bonobo66]

UPDATE; Last night, I flushed with lots of tap water and then flushed with a mild solution of some organic fertilizer (I don't know why, but I did).
I went to the Hydro store today and bought a PH liquid test which comes with PH up and PH down with it. I will check PH runoff today, but one thing... The guy who works there told me he diesn't thing that soil showing a ph off mid 5's is a problem, but rather is good since the soil in the root area SHOULD be pretty acidic (to sort of balance out "neutral" tap water). I don't know if it is true or not, but he didn't feel it was the PH. He guessed it might be genetics, but said it could be too much food or even not enough food. Some help there, huh!
ANyway, I think it is looking a little better today. Maybe the tap water flush helped a bit?
Thanks for everything, Stinky! Has the midget army been called off yet? Am I safe?

[Weedhound]

BEFORE I SEND MY MIDGET ARMY OVER THERE TO PUNCH YOU IN THE KNEES!!!!!!

NOT a pretty sight to be sure....:D

[Weedhound]

And I always thought soil ph was supposed to be 7.......am I mistaken?

[stinkyattic]

UPDATE; Last night, I flushed with lots of tap water and then flushed with a mild solution of some organic fertilizer (I don't know why, but I did).Because you have a grower's instinct.


Thanks for everything, Stinky! Has the midget army been called off yet? Am I safe?
Yes, the midgets are otherwise occupied... I have dispatched them to deal with certain banned members who shall remain nameless, lol.


And I always thought soil ph was supposed to be 7.......am I mistaken?
6.5-6.8... but soil at 7 is often safe simply because of the interactions of the components in cheap fertilizer. I strongly recommend that growers use compost that contains a lot of humus since it is naturally buffered at 6.8-6.9, and it works out well.

[stinkyattic]

Hey bono, wtf! I just realized we're neighbors. NICE. Just so you know, your local hydro shop is Liquid Sun, in Holyoke, right ON Rt. 5. It's in a brick 1-story building with a green roof, on your left heading South, and is not well marked.

[bonobo66]

Liquid Son is exactly where I went. Guy there was very cool.

He told me he thought the PH was fine even that low because it would tend to balance out the higher PH of the tap water. He said mid 5's was where you want the PH of the soil around your roots.

I live in Noho by the way. U?

About my grow, both turned out to be hermies and I guess I shouldn't have been surprised since they came from bagseed, eh!

I have 4 Bubblegum's going and 2 are VERY, VERY robust. One will probably make it and one is fucked I think. Really looking forward to starting them flowering, but I think I will grow out my hermies just for the education. Don't worry, I will be careful about pollen. Wash my hands, right?

[stinkyattic]

Be SUPER careful with those herms. I don't recommend even keeping them at all, but if you do, you are going tohave to go in there daily and pick bananas.
Mid 5's, eh? Well I'm not sure which dude yuo spoke to but if it was the older guy (mid 40's, skinny), he REALLY knows his shit. The young dude has less experience (youth, you know...) and hopefully was not confusing the pH range of hydro with that of soil. HYDRO is mid-5s.
I'm north of you but hang out in Hamp when my friends force me to. I just got DRAGGED kicking and screaming to the Dirty Truth (I was on a presonal boycott of the place because the owner is the most pretentious snoot I've ever met) but was REALLY happy with the beer selection- Smuttynose Double IPA ftw!- and the mussels in garlic-wine broth... oh holy shit were they good.
Perhaps we'll talk shop one of these days, eh?