ok listen here.......

[jdmarcus59]

If we were to be honest, I think alot of people spend more time to
come up with ways on how they can not belive in god, then to those

of us who do belive, and know what the truth is.

this is not a statement to put anybody down, just somthing to roll
around in your Head.:)

[xblackdogx]

if you believe you cannot see respect for god outside of yourself then it will never happen :P

[action.420]

what he said ^

[slipknotpsycho]

If we were to be honest, I think alot of people spend more time to
come up with ways on how they can not belive in god, then to those

of us who do belive, and know what the truth is.

this is not a statement to put anybody down, just somthing to roll
around in your Head.:)

yeah and you guys spend just as much time coming up with excuses around our logical arguments....

and you don't know what the truth is... no one does... cuz god has never phsyically shown himself... and no one here is dead and in heaven obviously... so no one can know... one way or the other...

i do find it funny that people seem to confuse faith with knowledge tho... most christians these days (atleast that i come across) don't BELEIVE in god... they 'know in' god...

[powair]

When it comes right down to it "reality" and "truth" are entirely subjective. What IS matters not. What is PERCEIVED is all that constitutes reality. Whatever you believe or "know" to be true, is what is true. In this way, there are no universal truths or untruths, rights or wrongs. I personally am an entity that consists neither of beliefs or disbeliefs.

[jdmarcus59]

yeah and you guys spend just as much time coming up with excuses around our logical arguments....

and you don't know what the truth is... no one does... cuz god has never phsyically shown himself... and no one here is dead and in heaven obviously... so no one can know... one way or the other...

i do find it funny that people seem to confuse faith with knowledge tho... most christians these days (atleast that i come across) don't BELEIVE in god... they 'know in' god...

my freind God did show him self, jesus said if you have seen me
you have seen the father, read the gospel of john to understand
what christ meant.............oh come on you can read it , it wont bite lol.:)

[jdmarcus59]

jesus gave an answer to to anyone who asked, some people just choses
not to belive, and jesus never ran after someone to argue with them, cause
he knows what is in the heart of man, christ said he knows his sheep, and
they hear His voice, and follow him. its really very simple, some people
know matter what prof you give them, will still choses not to belive.

very important passage in the gospel of john that explains this it says
that the light has come into the world, and the light shines in the darkness
but the darkness has not understood it, but to all that received Him(light)
to thoses who belived in His name, He gave the right to become children
of God.

[bhouncy]

jesus gave an answer to to anyone who asked, some people just choses
not to belive, and jesus never ran after someone to argue with them, cause
he knows what is in the heart of man, christ said he knows his sheep, and
they hear His voice, and follow him. its really very simple, some people
know matter what prof you give them, will still choses not to belive.

very important passage in the gospel of john that explains this it says
that the light has come into the world, and the light shines in the darkness
but the darkness has not understood it, but to all that received Him(light)
to thoses who belived in His name, He gave the right to become children
of God.

The idea of the man that they call Jesus appeals to me for what he values. Peace and love. But there are peace loving cats going around today who say similar things. Does that make them the son of this thing called god? Do their words prove the existence of what they say? I am a peace loving guy. If I hear a quite voice inside of me telling me to spread love and happiness and that also there is 4 gods and one of them is called Steph who is actually a transsexual then would people believe me? Whether they believe or not doesn't make it real. You can be a loving person and question what the fuck is going on.

[slipknotpsycho]

my freind God did show him self, jesus said if you have seen me
you have seen the father, read the gospel of john to understand
what christ meant.............oh come on you can read it , it wont bite lol.:)

you're kidding right?

first i have read it... cover to cover 3 times....

you do realize man wrote that book right? neither god nor jesus conjured up some magic to just 'produce' the book... to me that book holds no more value of being 'proof' then harry potter or something... both were written by everyday normal people...

and if god could dictate what he wanted written, he could prove himself now... which i don't really see happening..

either way i still stick with what i said earlier.... neither side can actually know... you either believe one way or the other, but no one actually KNOWS, as it's impossible to know... since there is no proof that he is, or isn't real. i stick to logic, opposed to faith.

[PureEvil760]

God is real, it is a fact. Sceptics are just living there lives in ignorance and will die in ignorance. Death will come quickly to the faithless, they will not live a full life. Niether will the religeous that fail to recognize that truth cannot be found outside of themselves.

[sonic titan]

Haha so atheists die early? That's a new one, lame.

[PureEvil760]

You live to be 80-100 right? those living in truth live to be 1000-3000. I wasnt really talking about life expectancy though, I'm talking about this lifetime, those living in darkness are going to be exterminated by the earth within the next 30 years.

[PureEvil760]

You can be indenial and argue all you want but its a hopeless struggle, the light has already won.

[Quincyboy]

it'll always be this way

[slipknotpsycho]

lol... i hope you're still a member of this forum in 30 years.. so i can show you i'm still alive and i was right all along...

[xblackdogx]

we should try to get some water under the bridge i'm building for this community of god believers, atheists and agnostics.

1. You create your reality, your life, not some God
2. There is intelligence beyond our world, beyond the world we know from our senses
3. The intelligence that is beyond our world is formless; formless = god / higher power
4. The trick to life is not to believe in some God, but it is to believe in YOURSELF and your experiences --- your experiences help you throughout each and every moment, you know how things will turn out, make the right actions
5. trust the formless/universe/higher power and know that you are HEAVEN SENT from this intelligence beyond our senses and you will realize your potential
6. stop arguing over the internet because each of you have exactly what you need- your individual experience - use YOUR EXPERIENCE TO YOUR BENEFIT; when you achieve happiness throughout each and everyday, then you can ask yourself if you want to CRITICIZE others perspectives

[Pass That Shit]

you're kidding right?

first i have read it... cover to cover 3 times....

you do realize man wrote that book right? neither god nor jesus conjured up some magic to just 'produce' the book... to me that book holds no more value of being 'proof' then harry potter or something... both were written by everyday normal people...

and if god could dictate what he wanted written, he could prove himself now... which i don't really see happening..

either way i still stick with what i said earlier.... neither side can actually know... you either believe one way or the other, but no one actually KNOWS, as it's impossible to know... since there is no proof that he is, or isn't real. i stick to logic, opposed to faith.

"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

"And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend"

"And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face"

I guess you missed these and many other passages that you're claiming don't exist. It's like beating a dead horse, but the bottom line is that you don't believe their testimony. It's not that these events didn't take place, it's that you are accusing the biblical writers of lying. What proof do you have against them? If we take any event individually, it will come down that you can't provide proof against any of it. Once again, it comes down to faith.

[powair]

You are right, it cannot be proven either true or false. But what it actually comes down to is a choice between buying into the greatest and most successful form of social control, or living free from such societal constraints.

[slipknotpsycho]

"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

"And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend"

"And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face"

I guess you missed these and many other passages that you're claiming don't exist. It's like beating a dead horse, but the bottom line is that you don't believe their testimony. It's not that these events didn't take place, it's that you are accusing the biblical writers of lying. What proof do you have against them? If we take any event individually, it will come down that you can't provide proof against any of it. Once again, it comes down to faith.

like i said, that book was written by man... just cuz the book says he spoke to them, doesn't mean it really happened...

also, i don't have to have proof against it, that's like me asking you what proof do you have that it really DID happen... you don't have proof, you just have the faith it did happen..

the book is so old, and has been translated so many times, that leaves alot of room for error. then of course, there's the fact that it was written by man, and men do lie...

my belief on that book is something that powair has already hinted at.

it was written to control people, you do have to remember at this time there wasn't a whole lot of law, and any they did have wouldn't have been as effective as it is today. what better way to make sure people stay in line then to tell them there is a god watching them all the time, and he has set rules for his creations to follow, and if they don't, they will be condemned to eternal torture as punishment.

[birdgirl73]

Folks, I want to remind some of you again that one of the central tenets of this forum is respect of others' beliefs. I had to remove a thread above that used some profane language about God, which was a prime example of disrespect, and then had to remove two requotes/repeats of that same language in later posts.

For those of you who are debating on the religious-believers side, remember that you, too, are disrespecting others' beliefs when you tell them that your personal beliefs are the infallible truth. While I know you believe this "infallible truth" to be the final word, that is, in fact, your truth, not necessarily everyone else's. Respect goes both ways here.

[jdmarcus59]

You are right, it cannot be proven either true or false. But what it actually comes down to is a choice between buying into the greatest and most successful form of social control, or living free from such societal constraints.

living free? son what do you know about freedom.

[slipknotpsycho]

living free? son what do you know about freedom.

actually... that'd be daughter... not son..

[Pass That Shit]

Originally Posted by slipknotpsycho
"either way i still stick with what i said earlier.... neither side can actually know... you either believe one way or the other, but no one actually KNOWS, as it's impossible to know... since there is no proof that he is, or isn't real. i stick to logic, opposed to faith."

I know you don't believe in God, but what you fail to realize is that your beliefs don't come from logic, they come from faith. You put your faith in what you have read and heard from other men. If it were by logic, there would be way more non-believers in the world.

[jdmarcus59]

actually... that'd be daughter... not son..

Iam sorry please forgive me.

[slipknotpsycho]

Originally Posted by slipknotpsycho
"either way i still stick with what i said earlier.... neither side can actually know... you either believe one way or the other, but no one actually KNOWS, as it's impossible to know... since there is no proof that he is, or isn't real. i stick to logic, opposed to faith."

I know you don't believe in God, but what you fail to realize is that your beliefs don't come from logic, they come from faith. You put your faith in what you have read and heard from other men. If it were by logic, there would be way more non-believers in the world.

no faith is believing in something you cannot see hear taste feel prove etc....

logic would dictate since there is no proof, then there must be no god.

[jdmarcus59]

Originally Posted by slipknotpsycho
"either way i still stick with what i said earlier.... neither side can actually know... you either believe one way or the other, but no one actually KNOWS, as it's impossible to know... since there is no proof that he is, or isn't real. i stick to logic, opposed to faith."

I know you don't believe in God, but what you fail to realize is that your beliefs don't come from logic, they come from faith. You put your faith in what you have read and heard from other men. If it were by logic, there would be way more non-believers in the world.

I belive in what I know and what I have seen.but it is a matter if faith, yes.:)

[Hardcore Newbie]

I know you don't believe in God, but what you fail to realize is that your beliefs don't come from logic, they come from faith. You put your faith in what you have read and heard from other men.
I'll quote someone else for a rebuttal to your "everything requires faith"

If a lack of belief in god requires faith, then it's no more faith than a lack of belief in everything else imaginary. In which case, God has no more credibility than the tooth fairy or the flying spagetti monster. It baffles me to this day that millions have now become convinced that "faith" not only applies to belief, but lack of belief as well. This is a very typical example of people who don't understand that atheism is not knowing there isn't a god, it is knowing god is no more plausible than everything else that doesn't exist, until god has been proven or at least has some supporting evidence.

Now although I don't fully agree with his definition of atheism (I'd say some atheists do believe that a god is an impossibility) the underlying argument is there.


... If [your disbelief in God] were by logic, there would be way more non-believers in the world.So I guess you have faith that most people are logical? If logic were the most prevalent attribute we possessed, we certainly would have no use for advertisements, or Britney Spears ;)

[Pass That Shit]

no faith is believing in something you cannot see hear taste feel prove etc....

logic would dictate since there is no proof, then there must be no god.

No proof?
Are you alive?
Can you see the sun?
Is their a moon?
Isn't it nice to look at the stars?
Do you like the clouds?
How about the water they drop?
To the earth that we came from,
Where our food grows from the rain
Isn't it nice to plant a seed?
Don't you enjoy harvest?
How about all the animals in the world,
Where did they come from?
Weren't we left the word of God?
No proof?

There's plenty of proof to a believer in God. Now, the unbeliever chooses to put faith in "other" explanations for our coming into existence. To me, logic shows that we did not get put into this perfect environment by "luck". There are way too many factors.
And I'm done beating this dead horse!!!

[jdmarcus59]

No proof?
Are you alive?
Can you see the sun?
Is their a moon?
Isn't it nice to look at the stars?
Do you like the clouds?
How about the water they drop?
To the earth that we came from,
Where our food grows from the rain
Isn't it nice to plant a seed?
Don't you enjoy harvest?
How about all the animals in the world,
Where did they come from?
Weren't we left the word of God?
No proof?

There's plenty of proof to a believer in God. Now, the unbeliever chooses to put faith in "other" explanations for our coming into existence. To me, logic shows that we did not get put into this perfect environment by "luck". There are way too many factors.
And I'm done beating this dead horse!!!

I like that, I like what you said:)

[Hardcore Newbie]

No proof?
Are you alive?
Can you see the sun?
Is their a moon?
Isn't it nice to look at the stars?
Do you like the clouds?
How about the water they drop?
To the earth that we came from,
Where our food grows from the rain
Isn't it nice to plant a seed?
Don't you enjoy harvest?
How about all the animals in the world,
Where did they come from?
Weren't we left the word of God?
No proof?

There's plenty of proof to a believer in God. Now, the unbeliever chooses to put faith in "other" explanations for our coming into existence. To me, logic shows that we did not get put into this perfect environment by "luck". There are way too many factors.
And I'm done beating this dead horse!!!
Spaghetti Monster did it. Sorry to burst your bubble :(

[bhouncy]

actually could be the alcohol but i'm not really sure what you were even trying to say o.0

"make love not war" was what I was trying to say. The rest of the words are just part of some spell to increase your Mana 100 points.

[powair]

No proof?
Are you alive?
Can you see the sun?
Is their a moon?
Isn't it nice to look at the stars?
Do you like the clouds?
How about the water they drop?
To the earth that we came from,
Where our food grows from the rain
Isn't it nice to plant a seed?
Don't you enjoy harvest?
How about all the animals in the world,
Where did they come from?
Weren't we left the word of God?
No proof?

There's plenty of proof to a believer in God. Now, the unbeliever chooses to put faith in "other" explanations for our coming into existence. To me, logic shows that we did not get put into this perfect environment by "luck". There are way too many factors.
And I'm done beating this dead horse!!!

This is not proof at all. Would you like the explanation?

If everything on this earth did not work together quite perfectly in the way that it does, than it is highly unlikely life would be able to sustain itself here. And life has adapted, through millions of years of natural selection, to flourish in given environmental conditions. In the infinite amount of planets with their infinite arrays of composition, there are also an infinite amount of planets capable of sustaining life. Incidentally, there are also an infinite amount of planets with life on them, distant though they may be. Unfortunately, our small world and petty problems are NOT the center of the universe. This giant, amazing ecosystem is rather insignificant in the scheme of things. I am sorry to inform you, but chance IS the reason for your existence.

Personally, I find the whole thing to be quite incredible and beautiful in and of itself. Attributing it to the work of some conscious higher power is an injustice. Maybe what you call god is just the phenomenal, universal interaction of things?

[bhouncy]

He's saying the argument is pointless because no side will win. When you don't have any weed for a month (me) I have to spend my time doing something so I keep up the debate. I think it would be wrong to let something that is logically senseless spread like... well... a logical cancer.

I can understand people making their case so that those who are looking for answers wont be misguided by other peoples view of the world. I've been sucked into that world on many an occasion. From what I see around me in the real world there isn't much of this kind of debate going on. But on the net it is constant. I think the South Park episode with everyone atheist but splitting into divided groups fighting each other showed in a fun way how humans will band together with common goals and values and beliefs and attack other groups who don't agree with them. Monkeys in the wild exhibit gang behaviour and will attack other groups. We are just slightly more evolved but not much more. Maybe in the future we will evolve a bit more.

[imitator]

God is real, it is a fact. Sceptics are just living there lives in ignorance and will die in ignorance. Death will come quickly to the faithless, they will not live a full life. Niether will the religeous that fail to recognize that truth cannot be found outside of themselves.


You live to be 80-100 right? those living in truth live to be 1000-3000. I wasnt really talking about life expectancy though, I'm talking about this lifetime, those living in darkness are going to be exterminated by the earth within the next 30 years.



You can be indenial and argue all you want but its a hopeless struggle, the light has already won.

There is a special kind of mental illness that seems to describe you oh so perfectly.

Where is your proof? What do you have to back up your claims besides empty words? In this day and age, we require proof before believing any claims, let alone ones as off the wall as this one.

Is this the part where you bring in the magic angel of 1988 or whatever, and how he backtracks about how the world was supposed to end in 2000?

Or is this the part where you ridicule others for their skepticism in something that is so outlandish sounding that the average person would just look at you and have to fight to not have an anuerism due to the stupid being caught in their heads.

Where is your proof? What do you have to back your claims? What evidence do you have? Where are you getting this from, evidence or not?

Answer some questions for a change, instead of just spouting drivel over and over again with nothing behind it but a mentality that everyone else is wrong and you are right.

[imitator]

God is real, it is a fact.

From dictionary.com


Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed

Where is your demonstration of this fact? Where is your proof of God existing? Wait, whats that, you dont have any proof? There hasnt been any proof for hundreds upon hundreds of years? Oh yeah... thats right. So in the meantime, spout what you want, but remember, there is a stark difference between FACTS and BELIEF.

[jdmarcus59]

Spaghetti Monster did it. Sorry to burst your bubble :(

spaghetti monster come forth.:thumbsup:

[imitator]

spaghetti monster come forth.:thumbsup:

He just called me and said he will meet up when God and Jesus rsvp as well.

[delusionsofNORMALity]

If we were to be honest, I think alot of people spend more time to
come up with ways on how they can not believe in god, then to those of us who do believe, and know what the truth is.

most of us were brought up to believe the usual monotheistic mythologies. jahwe, allah, jesus etc. are the standard fare to keep the young'uns in line and introduce them to the concepts of law and morality. though many question the believability of such fairy tales, most eventually revert to the indoctrination of their childhood and join the majority in their blind belief. this is seldom questioned and it is, in fact, considered in poor taste to challenge those beliefs in public.

many of us, however, find no solace in those religious best-sellers and choose the path of the unbeliever. unlike the believers, our conclusions are constantly put to the test. such questions as "how can you not believe in god?" are not considered impolite, but are considered the normal response when a believer is faced with someone who so brazenly denies the validity of their chosen faith.

so, what is our answer to be? the real answer is that this is our belief, but that carries little weight in the face of so vast a majority. instead we detail the steps that led us to our belief. we cite each false note and misstep we have noticed and hope that will satisfy our faithful questioners. it never does, but our small minority needs some weapon to face the brutish power of the world's religious institutions and since y'all have abandoned reason, we have taken up logic to be our sword and shield.

[slipknotpsycho]

There is a special kind of mental illness that seems to describe you oh so perfectly.

Where is your proof? What do you have to back up your claims besides empty words? In this day and age, we require proof before believing any claims, let alone ones as off the wall as this one.

Is this the part where you bring in the magic angel of 1988 or whatever, and how he backtracks about how the world was supposed to end in 2000?

Or is this the part where you ridicule others for their skepticism in something that is so outlandish sounding that the average person would just look at you and have to fight to not have an anuerism due to the stupid being caught in their heads.

Where is your proof? What do you have to back your claims? What evidence do you have? Where are you getting this from, evidence or not?

Answer some questions for a change, instead of just spouting drivel over and over again with nothing behind it but a mentality that everyone else is wrong and you are right.


lol dude i'm on your side, so don't go off on me or anything, but you're so barking up the wrong tree with that shit on him.... just look at some of his posts.... i've learned to just kinda ignore it o.0

anyways... i'm heavily considering just stopping debating with believers all together... it's so useless.... they NEVER listen, they NEVER admit they could be wrong...

they always claim to know, and their sole proof is always some random quote from the bible... which of course, atleast to logical people is no proof at all... i mean i could quote spells from harry potter, does that mean the magic really exists?

meh i just don't know anymore... i don't even believe 90% of them have faith, i think their relentlessly unlogical and/or evasive answers aren't coming from faith, but just trying to convince themselves they're right and not crazy.... what other explination could there really be? they take it far past faith... they talk about it as if they have personally met god, and he has explained every last detail of life to them... as if they could say with 100% they're right...

[Hardcore Newbie]

anyways... i'm heavily considering just stopping debating with believers all together... it's so useless.... they NEVER listen, they NEVER admit they could be wrong...

they always claim to know, and their sole proof is always some random quote from the bible... which of course, atleast to logical people is no proof at all... i mean i could quote spells from harry potter, does that mean the magic really exists?

meh i just don't know anymore... i don't even believe 90% of them have faith, i think their relentlessly unlogical and/or evasive answers aren't coming from faith, but just trying to convince themselves they're right and not crazy.... what other explination could there really be? they take it far past faith... they talk about it as if they have personally met god, and he has explained every last detail of life to them... as if they could say with 100% they're right...I disagree with most of what you wrote. I'm sure believers sometimes get frustrated with non-believers, they probably feel that we *never* listen to anything they say, because no one's opinion ever changes.

If you're aiming to change someone's opinion on something this big and important in someone's life, you're wasting your time. It's like trying to convince someone that their politics are wrong, it's not going to happen. Sure, you can debate on certain specific issues with them, but you'll never change a lefty into a righty, or vice versa, on an internet forum, at least without a good deal of time and more than likely you'd need to become very important to them for them to *really* listen.

that said, I come to discuss spirituality because I love sociology and anthropology, I love learning why people think in certain ways, so it's more about learning than actually trying to change someone's opinion.

Stop trying so hard and just have fun :D

I do understand, however, when you're trying to have a conversation, and someone comes in and spouts off random ideas, presenting them as fact without a lick of proof, or anything substantial to back it up, not bothering to answer any questions. Just stop talking to them and you'll keep your hair for a longer time :D

[slipknotpsycho]

they probably feel that we *never* listen to anything they say, because no one's opinion ever changes

first part on the quote... i even say i could be wrong... i just say i find it a very unlikely course.... however, i've never had a believer say "i know i could be wrong, i understand your view, but i still believe i'm right" they say something along the lines of "you're wrong i'm right and that's all there is to it" and if they're really religious some retarded crap like "i'll pray for your soul" or "i'll pray god helps you find the light.."

2nd part peoples opinions do change... i didn't read th ebible three times because i wanted to understand what i don't believe in.... i read it becuase ibelieved.... i'm living proof peoples opinions do change... as i grew older and older i believed less and less.... at 16-17 i had one last little fizzle of faith... it died away and i have no regrets... i didn't lose my way (for any christian or believer that decides that's what happened) i opened my eyes... i looked at the world around me and realized something was really fucked up... whatever it may be, IF there is a god, he's definately nothing that's written in the book..

i'm not actualy trying to change anyone's opinions.. i never expect to change anyone's opinion, even on small shit, much less something as major as faith.. i just like to state my opinion... maybe it's just me trying for once to get some christian to acknowledge what i call logic... maybe it's my way of trying for once to not just be blown off.... i don't know the real reason i do... but i DO know i don't start in on it to try and change anyone's opinion... you ever even tried to change a hardcore believers opinion on say.. gayness? it's like fucking impossible... now multiply it by like 30.. and that's about how impossible it'd be to change their opionion of the entire idea of god...

for a better explination, think of it as me finally just giving the hell up on ever having a believer acknowledge what i say as truth, or even possible... even a 0.0000000001% of a possibility... as over th eyears i've been shown time and time again it just doesn't happen....

i don't understand why atheist can admit they may be wrong, they just find it highly unlikely they are... but believers "KNOW" they're right and everyone else as wrong...

also like someone said... any proof they have to derive their religion from came from 'holy text' if that's proof of the christian god's existence, then it'd also be proof of other religions god such as allah etc.... but will you ever find a christian to acknowledge that? i highly doubt it...

[Hardcore Newbie]

first part on the quote... i even say i could be wrong... i just say i find it a very unlikely course.... however, i've never had a believer say "i know i could be wrong, i understand your view, but i still believe i'm right" they say something along the lines of "you're wrong i'm right and that's all there is to it" and if they're really religious some retarded crap like "i'll pray for your soul" or "i'll pray god helps you find the light.."
I find most religious people are willing to say they could be wrong. I admit that i could be wrong in almost everything. I find that the only people who never admit that there's a slight chance that they could be wrong are the people who have either seen god, or have hallucinated seeing god. It's pretty hard to argue with someone who's seen god, whether real or imaginary.

2nd part peoples opinions do change... i didn't read th ebible three times because i wanted to understand what i don't believe in.... i read it becuase ibelieved.... i'm living proof peoples opinions do change... as i grew older and older i believed less and less.... at 16-17 i had one last little fizzle of faith... it died away and i have no regrets... i didn't lose my way (for any christian or believer that decides that's what happened) i opened my eyes... i looked at the world around me and realized something was really fucked up... whatever it may be, IF there is a god, he's definately nothing that's written in the book..
I agree here, but I'm sure you didn't change your opinion over one piece of information. I could be wrong (hehe) but something like this is a life changing transformation, and it takes a while to happen. I used to be quite religious as a child. Well, not really religious, but I sure loved telling people they'd go to hell if they didn't use the KJV of the Bible. I had no idea why, but hey, I was an impressionable kid listening to my grandma, and i was trying to save lives, that's all I knew.

i don't understand why atheist can admit they may be wrong, they just find it highly unlikely they are... but believers "KNOW" they're right and everyone else as wrong...
Yup, I agree here. *Some* athiests "know" that there's no god, but I don't pay attention to their arguments either.

I think the reason agnostics and atheists have an easier time admitting that they could be wrong, is because it really doesn't make a difference to them. If proof came tomorrow that God was real, it doesn't make a difference to what I've believed in the past, I now know that there's a God, so I can choose to follow or not, no biggie, right? But if a believer is wrong, they've got so much of their life invested into this idea. If tomorrow, proof came about that the spaghetti monster created the universe, believers might call it a test. Any information that threatens their beliefs are generally considered tests, and probably feel obligated to pass these tests, and the way to do that is by still believing.

Another reason could be simply time... It's like some people getting addicted to World of warcraft (or whatever popular MMO game people are playing these days). Some poeple aren't even having fun in the game anymore, but they've already invested so much time into the game, they feel they can't quit.

also like someone said... any proof they have to derive their religion from came from 'holy text' if that's proof of the christian god's existence, then it'd also be proof of other religions god such as allah etc.... but will you ever find a christian to acknowledge that? i highly doubt it...Yes, but science only gets it's information from.. well, science. It sounds silly, but the fact that science is wrong about things all the time (earth used to be flat) people see that as a reason to dismiss science.

As well, if someone chooses not to use logic and reason as their guiding principles, it becomes very difficult to use something logical or reasonable as you argument.

[imitator]

Alot of the misconceptions in science, were fueled in part by religion. You find, that science has expanded the quickest when it has been able to be completely seperated and unhindered by religion.

Currently, we are falling far behind what we could be at technology wise in the realms of stem cell research, and cloning. Both are issues that those of religion take issue with, and fight against. Now some countries are not as hindered as others, but science is expected to have morals now, which causes havoc amoung science, because whose morals are you expected to follow?

I had a chance once, to meet a Buddhist monk, just outside a monestary in Cali. It was about two weeks after I had gotten out of Boot Camp, so needless to say, after 13 weeks of having no one to really talk with but myself, I was overjoyed to have a chance to speak to someone like that. The monk was, for lack of a better way to describe it, inspirational without being religious at all. He gave me such a feeling that he knew there were many different paths to enlightenment, that he was happy in his, but understood that other people had other paths, and that they might not all lead to the same spot his does. And he was ok with this, at peace with it I suppose you could say. He had told me that he was ok if people didnt have faith in his religion, did not believe what he believed. As long as they were leading good lives, it didnt matter how they were accomplishing it.

Buddhism denies the existance of a God(s). In Buddhism, one becomes the Buddha when they reach enlightenment, nirvana. The Buddha is there to teach, and guide people, and help them reach enlightenment as well. Such is an excellent example, if you wish to look to religion for a counterpoint, of a religion that sees enlightenment as not having anything to do with a God, but merely a personal thing that one reaches.

[Pass That Shit]

I will admit that I could be wrong about alot of things, but since it's written in truth and I have substance and evidence to prove it, God is true. There is no middle ground. He either is or is not. And I know for certain that he is. Just because you decided to stop believing in him, doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Actually, it tells me that you never had faith. I'm sorry to bust your bubble, but once you have obtained "faith", you can not loose him. Faith is a person. If you want me to believe that God doesn't exist, you will have to remove him from my heart. Look at it from my point of view, how can you expect me to believe you when I have substance and proof that he is alive? So just like you accuse the biblical writers, I know for certain that what you're preaching is a LIE. And liars have no part in the Kingdom of God (you should know from reading). You need to follow your own advice and humble yourself to the things that are true. You come to the table without any evidence at all. You guys throw out all these theories and expect them to be accepted as truth. This shit is deep. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to be rooted and grounded in truth. I don't share my point of view on here to change others, but rather to defend the kingdom of God. Come Lord Jesus!!!

What makes unbelievers feel that they have more logic than one that puts his/her faith and trust in the LORD?
Sorry folks, this has NOTHING to do with logic.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

[Matt the Funk]

People have faith in God because of ignorance and fear. People believe don't believe in God because of logic. Just because we don't know something, does not mean some mystical omnipresence just created everything, and can do everything. And for the people who want to say that I am just avoiding the truth, blah blah blah, no i'm not. If there was a God I would not change how I live. If some mystical being wants to judge me, fuck it. I've had spritual experiences, I have astal projected, I have lucid dreams almost everynight. I have seen what "God" really is to me, and it makes a lot of sense. God is change. Plain and simple. Originally I see God as an idea made to gain mass population control through religion due to our ego's being so huge and being able to figure out we can manipulate weak minded people. I'm not saying religious people are weak minded, i'm just saying I disagree full-heartedly with them.

[imitator]

I will admit that I could be wrong about alot of things, but since it's written in truth and I have substance and evidence to prove it, God is true. There is no middle ground. He either is or is not. And I know for certain that he is. Just because you decided to stop believing in him, doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Actually, it tells me that you never had faith. I'm sorry to bust your bubble, but once you have obtained "faith", you can not loose him. Faith is a person. If you want me to believe that God doesn't exist, you will have to remove him from my heart. Look at it from my point of view, how can you expect me to believe you when I have substance and proof that he is alive? So just like you accuse the biblical writers, I know for certain that what you're preaching is a LIE. And liars have no part in the Kingdom of God (you should know from reading). You need to follow your own advice and humble yourself to the things that are true. You come to the table without any evidence at all. You guys throw out all these theories and expect them to be accepted as truth. This shit is deep. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to be rooted and grounded in truth. I don't share my point of view on here to change others, but rather to defend the kingdom of God. Come Lord Jesus!!!

What makes unbelievers feel that they have more logic than one that puts his/her faith and trust in the LORD?
Sorry folks, this has NOTHING to do with logic.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

See right there, you fail. God tells you not to judge your fellow man, that it is only his job and his right to do. You have just lost your chance to get into heaven.. unless of course you prescribe to the belief that all sins are forgiven if you ask for forgivenes for them.

For all you know, and with just as much proof as you have to prove God(s) existance, God intends for the non-believers to exist, for a reason, that he condones. Perhaps he even has a hand in making them non-believers. You dont know. You have no proof against it, which is the lovely arguement most religious people use. So therefore, in judging those who dont believe, and accusing them of lying, and showing general hate towards your fellow brothers and sisters, you have gone against the very tenants of the god you supposedly believe in and follow.

[imitator]

And if nothing else, how do you explain the sudden disproving of Roman and Greek gods and goddess's, and stating that they dont exist, while at the same exact time claiming that your god does?

Which is it? Whats to say that hundreds of years down the line, people will not look back at your religion and come to the same conclusions that we do now about theirs? What makes yours so different? I promise you thousands of people back then felt the same things as you in regards to their god(s).

The problem some "non believers" have, is not with your belief. Personally, if your belief makes you a better person and lets you live a better life on a whole, then I am happy for you, and hope you continue with whatever it is that is helping you as such. But when you start attacking other peoples form of belief, stating they are wrong, and that your way is the right way, then there is a problem. You are trying to prevent them from doing the same thing that you are being given the right to. You are trying to tell them that their way of finding happiness and bettering themselves is wrong, that they are wrong... but how can a person be wrong when it comes to something such as faith. There is no RIGHT answer in faith, as there is no answer involved anywhere there, in any sense that could be proven correct or incorrect.

You cant expect when you insult other peoples beliefs by telling them that they are wrong, to not recieve the same in kind, maybe with some added in, because they are now angry about being attacked as such. This holds true for believers or non-believers.

[Pass That Shit]

Just to clarify. I never judge anyone (soul) cause I don't know which are wheat and which are tares. This will take place at harvest time. I was pointing out that anyone preaching a lie (against the gospel) will not enter into the kingdom of God. As harsh as this sounds, it doesn't come from me. We need to repent and believe the gospel. I'm not casting judgment on anyone. Everyone can make their own choices. So just because someone doesn't believe in God today, doesn't mean that will be their final decision.
We are here pointing others in the right direction. Follow him.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life"

[imitator]

Just to clarify. I never judge anyone (soul) cause I don't know which are wheat and which are tares. This will take place at harvest time. I was pointing out that anyone preaching a lie (against the gospel) will not enter into the kingdom of God. As harsh as this sounds, it doesn't come from me. We need to repent and believe the gospel. I'm not casting judgment on anyone. Everyone can make their own choices. So just because someone doesn't believe in God today, doesn't mean that will be their final decision.
We are here pointing others in the right direction. Follow him.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life"

That is fine, but why cant one just enjoy the path they have found, without the need to try to "convert" people, which always seems more like what I said before, belittling their belief system and telling them they need to replace it with yours.

Would Jesus and God be happy with someone who lived their lives following much of the same rules and guidelines that they preached to their followers, while having never followed their religion... then to lets say, have someone who follows the religion, but does not follow the rules or live a good life? Why does belief automatically make things better then non-belief. Wouldnt God be ok with it, because we are all his children, and that person was living their life as to how God wished it, even if they didnt give worship to him?

Thats the kind of person as a God you would want in your kingdom to be given eternal reward for their actions. The person who didnt need the fear of God and retribution to cause them to lead a good life. Those people who led a good life without the need of anyone telling them to, or giving them a set of guidelines. They truely are the chosen ones, because their soul was pure and they were able to pass all the tests without even knowing that they were being tested.

[Hardcore Newbie]

And I know for certain that he is. Just because you decided to stop believing in him, doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Actually, it tells me that you never had faith. I'm sorry to bust your bubble, but once you have obtained "faith", you can not loose him. Faith is a person.
I disagree. Who are you to say "it's impossible to lose faith"? How do you back up this claim? Faith is not evidence, faith is not knowledge, faith is not proof. Faith by definition is the exact opposite of these things, faith is more equivalent to hope than anything. How can you say it's impossible to lose faith? Losing faith is very possible, because i have believed in god, and now I don't. If you're trying to tell me that i didn't believe in god as a child, you're mistaken. I can *prove* that someone can lose faith, keep reading.

You come to the table without any evidence at all. You guys throw out all these theories and expect them to be accepted as truth. This shit is deep. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to be rooted and grounded in truth. I don't share my point of view on here to change others, but rather to defend the kingdom of God. Come Lord Jesus!!!
"Rooted and grounded in truth" is something I've heard of before. Just because someone is rooted and standing their ground firmer than another, that doesn't make their beliefs *more true*, for lack of better words at this moment.

If we have 3 people A, B and C, and 2 of them, A and B, have been told as children their multiplication tables without an explanation as to how they work. they're just given the table and expected to memorize it. There's a problem with this multiplication table tho, it states that 2x2=5. But since the children don't know how multiplication works, they use the multiplication table without giving a second thought as to whether it could be wrong. C comes along, who has actually learned how multiplication works, and tells them that 2x2=4, and can demonstrate why this is so over and over. B decides that, since he now knows how to multiply, he stops believing that 2x2=5. A takes what his teacher taught him as proof, and he is very rooted and grounded in "the truth".

Now, this story is NOT meant as a comparison of logic and belief, although it is a decent simplification of that as well. This story is meant to show that just because someone is very grounded in their beliefs, and believes it whole heartedly, it doesn't make them right. It also shows that someone can believe and then disbelieve, or "lose faith".

[Hardcore Newbie]

That is fine, but why cant one just enjoy the path they have found, without the need to try to "convert" people, which always seems more like what I said before, belittling their belief system and telling them they need to replace it with yours.
Love. They don't want to see their fellow man in a lake of fire. My dad's side of the family is constantly trying to convert me, but they're only doing it because they love me. They mean well, so I never question their intentions, as i know they're good intentions.


Thats the kind of person as a God you would want in your kingdom to be given eternal reward for their actions. The person who didnt need the fear of God and retribution to cause them to lead a good life. Those people who led a good life without the need of anyone telling them to, or giving them a set of guidelines. They truely are the chosen ones, because their soul was pure and they were able to pass all the tests without even knowing that they were being tested.If there is a god, this is the only doctrine i'd be able to see as truth, because it makes sense. The almighty, a truly perfect being, has no place for an ego.

[bhouncy]

I disagree. Who are you to say "it's impossible to lose faith"? How do you back up this claim? Faith is not evidence, faith is not knowledge, faith is not proof. Faith by definition is the exact opposite of these things, faith is more equivalent to hope than anything. How can you say it's impossible to lose faith? Losing faith is very possible, because i have believed in god, and now I don't. If you're trying to tell me that i didn't believe in god as a child, you're mistaken. I can *prove* that someone can lose faith, keep reading.

"Rooted and grounded in truth" is something I've heard of before. Just because someone is rooted and standing their ground firmer than another, that doesn't make their beliefs *more true*, for lack of better words at this moment.

If we have 3 people A, B and C, and 2 of them, A and B, have been told as children their multiplication tables without an explanation as to how they work. they're just given the table and expected to memorize it. There's a problem with this multiplication table tho, it states that 2x2=5. But since the children don't know how multiplication works, they use the multiplication table without giving a second thought as to whether it could be wrong. C comes along, who has actually learned how multiplication works, and tells them that 2x2=4, and can demonstrate why this is so over and over. B decides that, since he now knows how to multiply, he stops believing that 2x2=5. A takes what his teacher taught him as proof, and he is very rooted and grounded in "the truth".

Now, this story is NOT meant as a comparison of logic and belief, although it is a decent simplification of that as well. This story is meant to show that just because someone is very grounded in their beliefs, and believes it whole heartedly, it doesn't make them right. It also shows that someone can believe and then disbelieve, or "lose faith".

I love your cogent argument. And your isomorphism tickles me pink!

[Hardcore Newbie]

I love your cogent argument. And your isomorphism tickles me pink!Thanks, now I have to look up the word "isomorphism" :p

There are quite a few definitions, but I'll take it to mean something close to "analogy" :p

I made the example up on the spot too :D

[jdmarcus59]

The idea of the man that they call Jesus appeals to me for what he values. Peace and love. But there are peace loving cats going around today who say similar things. Does that make them the son of this thing called god? Do their words prove the existence of what they say? I am a peace loving guy. If I hear a quite voice inside of me telling me to spread love and happiness and that also there is 4 gods and one of them is called Steph who is actually a transsexual then would people believe me? Whether they believe or not doesn't make it real. You can be a loving person and question what the fuck is going on.

what you just said proves my point.

[bhouncy]

what you just said proves my point.

Please remind me of your point. That nobody knows what is going on and people can be easily led to believe in absolutely anything?

[slipknotpsycho]

I will admit that I could be wrong about alot of things, but since it's written in truth and I have substance and evidence to prove it, God is true. There is no middle ground. He either is or is not. And I know for certain that he is. Just because you decided to stop believing in him, doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Actually, it tells me that you never had faith. I'm sorry to bust your bubble, but once you have obtained "faith", you can not loose him. Faith is a person. If you want me to believe that God doesn't exist, you will have to remove him from my heart. Look at it from my point of view, how can you expect me to believe you when I have substance and proof that he is alive? So just like you accuse the biblical writers, I know for certain that what you're preaching is a LIE. And liars have no part in the Kingdom of God (you should know from reading). You need to follow your own advice and humble yourself to the things that are true. You come to the table without any evidence at all. You guys throw out all these theories and expect them to be accepted as truth. This shit is deep. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to be rooted and grounded in truth. I don't share my point of view on here to change others, but rather to defend the kingdom of God. Come Lord Jesus!!!

What makes unbelievers feel that they have more logic than one that puts his/her faith and trust in the LORD?
Sorry folks, this has NOTHING to do with logic.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."


thank you for proving my point exactly...

[slipknotpsycho]

You need to follow your own advice and humble yourself to the things that are true. You come to the table without any evidence at all.

also, this part actually did make me lol... you have no proof either... and i never claimed to have proof... i also clearly stated i'm not trying ot change anyone's opinion i'm merely stating my own..

this is a message board after all.. and message boards are for sharing opinions....

but yeah, that made me lol... you don't have proof, and neither do i... cuz it's literally impossible to obtain proof either way... it's literally impossible for me to once and for all prove he doesn't exist, and he still has not shown himself for all to see clearly.... as in say, appearing in a mile high body of celestial appearance.. you can say he's everything and all around, but until he shows himself in soemthing that cannot be explained by ANYTHING (such as a mile high half transparent figure) you don't have proof... you have faith..

perhaps you should REALLY look up faith in the dictionary, then look up proof... hell.. i'll do it for you...

FAITH -

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
â??Idiom9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.

PROOF -

1. evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.
2. anything serving as such evidence: What proof do you have?
3. the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial: to put a thing to the proof.
4. the establishment of the truth of anything; demonstration.
5. Law. (in judicial proceedings) evidence having probative weight.
6. the effect of evidence in convincing the mind.
7. an arithmetical operation serving to check the correctness of a calculation.
8. Mathematics, Logic. a sequence of steps, statements, or demonstrations that leads to a valid conclusion.
9. a test to determine the quality, durability, etc., of materials used in manufacture.
10. Distilling. a. the arbitrary standard strength, as of an alcoholic liquor.
b. strength with reference to this standard: â??100 proofâ?� signifies a proof spirit, usually 50% alcohol.

11. Photography. a trial print from a negative.
12. Printing. a. a trial impression, as of composed type, taken to correct errors and make alterations.
b. one of a number of early and superior impressions taken before the printing of the ordinary issue: to pull a proof.

13. (in printmaking) an impression taken from a plate or the like to show the quality or condition of work during the process of execution; a print pulled for examination while working on a plate, block, stone, etc.
14. Numismatics. one of a limited number of coins of a new issue struck from polished dies on a blank having a polished or matte surface.
15. the state of having been tested and approved.
16. proved strength, as of armor.
17. Scots Law. the trial of a case by a judge alone, without a jury.
â??adjective 18. able to withstand; successful in not being overcome: proof against temptation.
19. impenetrable, impervious, or invulnerable: proof against outside temperature changes.
20. used for testing or proving; serving as proof.
21. of standard strength, as an alcoholic liquor.
22. of tested or proven strength or quality: proof armor.
23. noting pieces of pure gold and silver that the U.S. assay and mint offices use as standards.
â??verb (used with object) 24. to test; examine for flaws, errors, etc.; check against a standard or standards.
25. Printing. prove (def. 7).
26. to proofread.
27. to treat or coat for the purpose of rendering resistant to deterioration, damage, etc. (often used in combination): to proof a house against termites; to shrink-proof a shirt.
28. Cookery. a. to test the effectiveness of (yeast), as by combining with warm water so that a bubbling action occurs.
b. to cause (esp. bread dough) to rise due to the addition of baker's yeast or other leavening.


religion has not been tested to a point to where anything is proof... and quite frankly that's all there is to it... a 2000+ year old book is not proof... proof is something solid, something tangible, something that can be tested, and confirm... there are no tests you could apply to faith to make it proof... well not that will help us anyways... the only real test is following the teachings and finding out if you were right when you die. but since no one's going to be able to confirm either way after they die to the rest of the living world, there is no test applicable here....

dunno why you're having such a hard time understanding this concept...

[slipknotpsycho]

LOGIC -

1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
2. a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic.
3. the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.
4. reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move.
5. convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts.
6. Computers. logic circuit.


just for the record.... we are more 'logical' becuase there's alot more proof pointing towards no god, then there is of a god existing... that's called logic... does logic mean it's always right? NO not by any means or in any way... but with the solid evidence present to us, the logical answer is he's not here. simply because the book is completely contridictory... he loves his chlidren, but lets them suffer. he's all forgiving and loving, but if you do wrong he will condemn you to eternal torture... there is no real case for there beign a god... you just have some words written in a book.... a book which makes alot of statements, but hardly ever coincides with life as we know it...

[Pass That Shit]

I disagree. Who are you to say "it's impossible to lose faith"? How do you back up this claim? Faith is not evidence, faith is not knowledge, faith is not proof. Faith by definition is the exact opposite of these things, faith is more equivalent to hope than anything. How can you say it's impossible to lose faith? Losing faith is very possible, because i have believed in god, and now I don't. If you're trying to tell me that i didn't believe in god as a child, you're mistaken. I can *prove* that someone can lose faith, keep reading.

"Rooted and grounded in truth" is something I've heard of before. Just because someone is rooted and standing their ground firmer than another, that doesn't make their beliefs *more true*, for lack of better words at this moment.

If we have 3 people A, B and C, and 2 of them, A and B, have been told as children their multiplication tables without an explanation as to how they work. they're just given the table and expected to memorize it. There's a problem with this multiplication table tho, it states that 2x2=5. But since the children don't know how multiplication works, they use the multiplication table without giving a second thought as to whether it could be wrong. C comes along, who has actually learned how multiplication works, and tells them that 2x2=4, and can demonstrate why this is so over and over. B decides that, since he now knows how to multiply, he stops believing that 2x2=5. A takes what his teacher taught him as proof, and he is very rooted and grounded in "the truth".

Now, this story is NOT meant as a comparison of logic and belief, although it is a decent simplification of that as well. This story is meant to show that just because someone is very grounded in their beliefs, and believes it whole heartedly, it doesn't make them right. It also shows that someone can believe and then disbelieve, or "lose faith".

First of all, words have a natural and a spritual meaning to them. Faith on an earthly level can go in and out. People can believe in God and then after learning more they stopped believing in God. Faith on a spiritual level is a person, and he has comforted us and told us that he would never leave us. So if someone was truly baptized with the Holy Ghost, the word of God tells us that it's a permanent thing. So my proof always go back to the word of God. So if you can try to understand, Faith being a person is the substance and evidence inside the person. The spiritual being himself makes the substance and evidence. Get it?

Alot of religious people on here don't get it about Jesus being the Holy Spirit. He's not only God the son. He tells us that where two or three gathered together in his name, that he is there in the midst. How can this be possible? He does not mean that he will be there physically, Jesus is claiming to be the Holy Spirit.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a completely different topic, :stoned:
I was out watering and saw a beautiful rainbow. It is comforting to know that the waters that destroyed the earth, will never happen again. What does science tells us about the rainbow?

[imitator]

That it is the optical separation of color bands in a ray of light do to refraction such as passing light through a crystal or in this case, water drops.

All of which is generally up for interpretation on a person by person basis, because what we see as a rainbow is just our perception of light traveling through something that causes refraction.

What I see as blue, might not be the same thing that is blue to you. And we have no way of ever knowing what another person see's and how they see it. Colorblindness is a lovely thing that caused lots of debate in one of my philo classes back in the day.

How do you explain to a person who is color blind what colors are, and what they look like? And how do we know that they have the problem, and we dont? Also, if no one had told this person that colors did exist, how would they have ever known? They couldnt know what colors are unless an external force explained or showed them to them. So they could live their entire lives, without ever knowing colors existed in the way we do, and that would be their reality.

[Krogith]

All of which is generally up for interpretation on a person by person basis, because what we see as a rainbow is just our perception of light traveling through something that causes refraction.

What I see as blue, might not be the same thing that is blue to you. And we have no way of ever knowing what another person see's and how they see it. Colorblindness is a lovely thing that caused lots of debate in one of my philo classes back in the day.

How do you explain to a person who is color blind what colors are, and what they look like? And how do we know that they have the problem, and we dont? Also, if no one had told this person that colors did exist, how would they have ever known? They couldnt know what colors are unless an external force explained or showed them to them. So they could live their entire lives, without ever knowing colors existed in the way we do, and that would be their reality.


Q: Does a Blind person see Black? White? Red? What color do they always have to look at? Does it change?

[jdmarcus59]

wow what a thread,what have I done lol.

[Pass That Shit]

What does science say about all the different colors in the rainbow? All our colors come from the colors in the rainbow.
What kind of chemical reaction is that? I don't have a scientific understanding of how the different colors are created in the air?

[Krogith]

What does science say about all the different colors in the rainbow? All our colors come from the colors in the rainbow.
What kind of chemical reaction is that? I don't have a scientific understanding of how the different colors are created in the air?


Howstuffworks "How Rainbows Work" (http://science.howstuffworks.com/rainbow1.htm)

[Kottonmouth Prince]

ya cant fuck with tha jesus bottom line

[imitator]

ya cant fuck with tha jesus bottom line

Nobody fucks with the jesus.

[Krogith]

There are and have been many people named Jesus. The Christ predicted in the hebrew scriptures was Fully Filled by Jesus who was The Christ.

The Jesus Means Nothing what so ever. So really people do Fuck with Jesus.

On a side note when did Jesus Christ want everone to make Idols out of the Cross? Didn't the Israel people get there butts kicked for idols? Didn't God Command them to Not Worship idols or ANY CRAVED IMAGE?

[imitator]

What?

Lol no, I was just quoting a movie when I said that. Its from The Big Lebowski.

[Hardcore Newbie]

First of all, words have a natural and a spritual meaning to them. Faith on an earthly level can go in and out. People can believe in God and then after learning more they stopped believing in God. Faith on a spiritual level is a person, and he has comforted us and told us that he would never leave us. So if someone was truly baptized with the Holy Ghost, the word of God tells us that it's a permanent thing. So my proof always go back to the word of God. So if you can try to understand, Faith being a person is the substance and evidence inside the person. The spiritual being himself makes the substance and evidence. Get it?When you say "baptized with the Holy Ghost" what exactly do you mean? and who is this "person" that represents, or is, faith? I'm just not sure what is literal, and what is figurative in your statements, please clarify :D

[Pass That Shit]

When you say "baptized with the Holy Ghost" what exactly do you mean? and who is this "person" that represents, or is, faith? I'm just not sure what is literal, and what is figurative in your statements, please clarify :D

Being baptized with the Holy Ghost is receiving the Spirit of God.
Jesus is faith.
Faith in your heart is substance and evidence that he exists.

[slipknotpsycho]

so just cuz someone's baptized, atleast by your logic, there's no way they can decide later on they no longer believe?

because they get their head dunked in water they'll never change their opinion?

i wash my hair all the time, i still change my opinion on alot of things...

[Pass That Shit]

Being baptized with the Holy Spirit is different from religion taking a dunk in a jacuzzi and claiming they've been baptized.

[BoilerUp]

The way I see it is that religion prevents you from doing what you want, and I hate it when people try to govern my actions.


Being baptized with the Holy Ghost is receiving the Spirit of God.
Jesus is faith.
Faith in your heart is substance and evidence that he exists.

By the way, I was baptized, and I am an extreme atheist. I thought god didn't want you to make generalizations.

[Pass That Shit]

See previous post!!! ;)

[Pass That Shit]

If you had been baptized with the Spirit of God, you would testify of him. All you did was take part in a religious ceremony.

[Hardcore Newbie]

I guess we'll have to disagree, as I still feel people can change their minds about anything, even if it's to do with faith. I still believe that one can lose faith. If you believe you've received The Holy Spirit, or even if you actually have, I believe you can always "rationalize" (for lack of a better word that doesn't assume that your beliefs are inferior to mine) it as a hallucination, or just a dream, or something that you wanted to see.

[Pass That Shit]

I guess we'll have to disagree, as I still feel people can change their minds about anything, even if it's to do with faith. I still believe that one can lose faith. If you believe you've received The Holy Spirit, or even if you actually have, I believe you can always "rationalize" (for lack of a better word that doesn't assume that your beliefs are inferior to mine) it as a hallucination, or just a dream, or something that you wanted to see.

You're not really disagreeing with me cause you don't believe me. You can't be disagreeing that the Holy Ghost never leaves your heart cause you don't believe man could recieve the Spirit of God. Those that loose faith actually don't loose anything. If faith was not in their heart, what did they loose? Your definition of faith is someone putting their trust thinking something is true and then learning that it's not. So they lost "faith" in what they once felt was true.
But what was of substance and what evidence did that person posses that they no longer trust in?

[imitator]

You're not really disagreeing with me cause you don't believe me. You can't be disagreeing that the Holy Ghost never leaves your heart cause you don't believe man could recieve the Spirit of God. Those that loose faith actually don't loose anything. If faith was not in their heart, what did they loose? Your definition of faith is someone putting their trust thinking something is true and then learning that it's not. So they lost "faith" in what they once felt was true.
But what was of substance and what evidence did that person posses that they no longer trust in?

It is possible for someone to loose faith in the religion in which they believed, touched by the holy spirit or not.

God speaks of those who have lost the path, but never does he mention that they were heathens or could not have been on the path before. Many times we can be side tracked, and loose the faith we once had.

Technically, the Holy Spirit is with us all, believer and non, because of what Jesus did for us, and how the whole thing works. God does not care if you spend your time in churches worshiping him, or if you dont spend a single minute praising his name in your life. He doesnt care if you believe in him, so much as he cares that you follow the morals that were supposed to be taught through the stories in the bible. Man decided to take things in a literal sense, and start using what happened in the bible stories as cause and justification for actions they made. Which isnt what is meant to happen with such things. God gave you rules, they are called the Ten Commandments. If he wanted the bible to be a giant rule book, im sure he would have done so. You know, Gods rules for Dummies or something.

But according to that book of stories to enchance ones life with, well... New Testament, Old Testament is like an action film with a very angry pist off God in it... God more or less states that as long as you live a good pure life, he is happy with you. And Jesus loves us, no matter what we do, same with God, else he would not allow people to be forgiven by asking for true forgiveness.

Being that the spirit is within us all if you perscribe to the Catholic/Christian faith, it is possible for people to loose their faith, or perhaps never have faith at all. The true test of a persons soul is to allow them to be tested and never let them know. Watch them when they think no one is watching them. And if someone can pass the "tests" of being one of true soul, then they truely deserve to enter the kingdom of heaven, as they have found the key to living how God wishes them to live, without ever having to have it forced down their throats, or even brought up.

Who is the better man, the one who spends his entire life in service of god, knowing exactly what he needs to do to enter the kingdom of heaven... but messes up once in awhile because he is human... or the man who knows nothing of God, but lives his life in attune to what God wishes as best as he can, and also screws up once in awhile? My money is on the guy who didnt know, because his soul was pure enough to find the correct path without any need of guidance or a carrot at the end of the stick.

Those who do something just to get something in return... well thats cheating. That means they arent living their life they way He asks because they want to do it for him, or themselves, they are doing it for the reward at the end. Which is selfish, and against everything their God preaches. Life isnt about working your way to heaven, life is about living... enjoying the gift that God gave them, and leading good wholesome lives. People who's entire focus is on obtaining access to heaven... they squander the most precious gift that God has given them, and I cant see how that is rewarded the same as the people who dont spend every second trying to get the prize to the game.

[Hardcore Newbie]

You're not really disagreeing with me cause you don't believe me. You can't be disagreeing that the Holy Ghost never leaves your heart cause you don't believe man could recieve the Spirit of God. Those that loose faith actually don't loose anything. If faith was not in their heart, what did they loose? Your definition of faith is someone putting their trust thinking something is true and then learning that it's not. So they lost "faith" in what they once felt was true.
But what was of substance and what evidence did that person posses that they no longer trust in?

I did disagree with you, because I never said anywhere that i didn't believe man could not receive the holy spirit. In fact, I went out of my way to say that this could be possible, even if it's something i consider highly unlikely.


I guess we'll have to disagree, as I still feel people can change their minds about anything, even if it's to do with faith. I still believe that one can lose faith. If you believe you've received The Holy Spirit, or even if you actually have, I believe you can always "rationalize" (for lack of a better word that doesn't assume that your beliefs are inferior to mine) it as a hallucination, or just a dream, or something that you wanted to see.

I believe that if someone has received the holy spirit, they can still "lose the evidence", so to speak. I believe, that people can change their opinion on anything, through the passing of time, and/or from acquiring new information. Whether newly acquired information is truth or not is of little importance. If a person has genuinely received the holy spirit, they can deem it to be false later. Maybe they've been dissatisfied with the way their life is turning, look for new information, and come to the conclusion that this baptism was in fact a trick by the spaghetti monster to poison their soul (in this religion, the spaghetti monster is a bad guy).

Through time and information, their perception of the exact same situation has changed. Even if the ideas and theologies within the Bible are 100% true, and someone has genuinely been baptized by the spirit, people are always free to change their mind (or heart, or soul). It wouldn't matter if the new information is a lie, it only matters if the follower believes it or not. People can be deceived, so it's fair to state that deception can take someone away from the truth.

For my own curiosity, what does the Bible say about how to go about getting this baptism of the Holy Spirit? Specific verses would be great.

[imitator]

You come up with just as many ways to beleive in god =\
And who are you to say you know what the truth is.
Because you don't.

Exactly. Never trust those who claim to know truths, for they are men with agenda's.

[PureEvil760]

You're not really disagreeing with me cause you don't believe me. You can't be disagreeing that the Holy Ghost never leaves your heart cause you don't believe man could recieve the Spirit of God. Those that loose faith actually don't loose anything. If faith was not in their heart, what did they loose? Your definition of faith is someone putting their trust thinking something is true and then learning that it's not. So they lost "faith" in what they once felt was true.
But what was of substance and what evidence did that person posses that they no longer trust in?

Yes its true, you always have your all powerfull self at your disposal, though sadly it is ignored by most. You can never loose it because it is you its just dorment waiting to be discovered, only you can make the choice to use it.

[Pass That Shit]

For my own curiosity, what does the Bible say about how to go about getting this baptism of the Holy Spirit? Specific verses would be great.

â??In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receiveâ?�

â??For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.â?�

â??He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.â?�

â??Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water;
but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.â?�

â??For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.â?�

â??But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
and that believing ye might have life through his name.â?�

â??Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:â?�

[Hardcore Newbie]

I was looking for verse numbers, so I can read the stories leading up to them, but thanks for the work so far :)

[jdmarcus59]

You come up with just as many ways to beleive in god =\
And who are you to say you know what the truth is.
Because you don't.

how can you say I dont know what truth is? if I say that I saw my freind
tom yesterday, at the corner and we talk, and 500 other people saw him
to, then who are you to say that I didnt? and what about the 500? are they
also not telling the truth? if you were not there then how would you know?

[bhouncy]

how can you say I dont know what truth is? if I say that I saw my freind
tom yesterday, at the corner and we talk, and 500 other people saw him
to, then who are you to say that I didnt? and what about the 500? are they
also not telling the truth? if you were not there then how would you know?

Liar! Tom was with me all day yesterday!

[AtomicBlaze42o]

how can you say I dont know what truth is? if I say that I saw my freind
tom yesterday, at the corner and we talk, and 500 other people saw him
to, then who are you to say that I didnt? and what about the 500? are they
also not telling the truth? if you were not there then how would you know?

Yeah! I'm Tom, I was talkin to my man, here. Lots of bitches saw us chewin the fat.

Sorry, no real reason to post this. But he does have a point, you don't exactly know assuming you have to back up your beliefs with cold hard fact and evidence to why you believe these things.

[AtomicBlaze42o]

Liar! Tom was with me all day yesterday!

LIES!

[cacayjunasian]

how can you say I dont know what truth is? if I say that I saw my freind
tom yesterday, at the corner and we talk, and 500 other people saw him
to, then who are you to say that I didnt? and what about the 500? are they
also not telling the truth? if you were not there then how would you know?

are you sure it was tom, not bob or jim? are you positive it was yesterday and not the day before? what time was this meeting? what corner were you at? and what about these 500 people? since they all saw you, could you identify any of the 500 people? do they personally know you or tom? how close were they to the corner when you had this conversation? could anyone confirm what you talked about? and could they distinguish you or even tom from bob or jim, or gary, or frank, or joe, or any other person that was by the corner that day?

i could go on and on, but this is how you methodically find out the truth. if you believe something as a "truth", i would hope that you would come up with as many ways as possible to not believe before you actually did believe. you really shouldn't take anything face value....especially, 500 people who claim to have seen this or that when we're talking about absolute "truths" in this world.

[AtomicBlaze42o]

^^ got you there.

[jdmarcus59]

are you sure it was tom, not bob or jim? are you positive it was yesterday and not the day before? what time was this meeting? what corner were you at? and what about these 500 people? since they all saw you, could you identify any of the 500 people? do they personally know you or tom? how close were they to the corner when you had this conversation? could anyone confirm what you talked about? and could they distinguish you or even tom from bob or jim, or gary, or frank, or joe, or any other person that was by the corner that day?

i could go on and on, but this is how you methodically find out the truth. if you believe something as a "truth", i would hope that you would come up with as many ways as possible to not believe before you actually did believe. you really shouldn't take anything face value....especially, 500 people who claim to have seen this or that when we're talking about absolute "truths" in this world.

I was trying to make a SIMPLE stament, and your asking me how close
I was to the curb? oh come on now,are you argueing just to argue?
Iam telling you what I saw and witness, and there are 500 other people
who saw the same thing, how can you say I did not see what I saw if
you were not there. this is not to be taken out of contect!....

[cacayjunasian]

I was trying to make a SIMPLE stament, and your asking me how close
I was to the curb? oh come on now,are you argueing just to argue?
Iam telling you what I saw and witness, and there are 500 other people
who saw the same thing, how can you say I did not see what I saw if
you were not there. this is not to be taken out of contect!....

because i was not there physically, i can't say what you saw...duh! my questions was to make a SIMPLE statement too. if you don't question your beliefs, how do you ever know the truth? oh, i forgot that your god disapproves that kind of behavior.

[jdmarcus59]

because i was not there physically, i can't say what you saw...duh! my questions was to make a SIMPLE statement too. if you don't question your beliefs, how do you ever know the truth? oh, i forgot that your god disapproves that kind of behavior.

well I guess this thread can end here, for it has come full circle.
because you just answered this thread,by working so hard on not
beliveing. by and peace.:)

[Hardcore Newbie]

how can you say I dont know what truth is? if I say that I saw my freind
tom yesterday, at the corner and we talk, and 500 other people saw him
to, then who are you to say that I didnt? and what about the 500? are they
also not telling the truth? if you were not there then how would you know?Someone else posted this example but it's quite powerful...

If 500 people see water in the desert, does it make the sand taste any better?

[imitator]

Someone else posted this example but it's quite powerful...

If 500 people see water in the desert, does it make the sand taste any better?

If there is 500 people, you would be able to muster up enough urine to prevent dehydration for at least a bit of time. :p

[cacayjunasian]

well I guess this thread can end here, for it has come full circle.
because you just answered this thread,by working so hard on not
beliveing. by and peace.:)

ummm...ok, whatever that means. i didn't know you posted a question in this thread. but then again, i wasn't there when you posted this thread and maybe 500 people saw you post a question. and you're probably right, you "believers" must know the "truth" without any scientific proof or even the slightest questioning of your beliefs.

[Hardcore Newbie]

well I guess this thread can end here, for it has come full circle.
because you just answered this thread,by working so hard on not
beliveing. by and peace.:)FTR, I don't work hard on "not believing", it just comes naturally for me I guess :P

[imitator]

FTR, I don't work hard on "not believing", it just comes naturally for me I guess :P

**... does his best Steve Perry impression....**

Dont stop believin

Hold on to that feeellin

Street light... peeeooppplllleeee

[jdmarcus59]

**... does his best Steve Perry impression....**

Dont stop believin

Hold on to that feeellin

Street light... peeeooppplllleeee

lol.lol.

[Hardcore Newbie]

i feel .... out of the loop. Steve perry is.... who?

[imitator]

i feel .... out of the loop. Steve perry is.... who?

Lead singer for Journey, rock band from the 70's and 80's. Im sure you have heard some of their songs before. Journey did a song called Dont Stop Believin, which is what I quoted above.

[Hardcore Newbie]

If we have 3 people A, B and C, and 2 of them, A and B, have been told as children their multiplication tables without an explanation as to how they work. they're just given the table and expected to memorize it. There's a problem with this multiplication table tho, it states that 2x2=5. But since the children don't know how multiplication works, they use the multiplication table without giving a second thought as to whether it could be wrong. C comes along, who has actually learned how multiplication works, and tells them that 2x2=4, and can demonstrate why this is so over and over. B decides that, since he now knows how to multiply, he stops believing that 2x2=5. A takes what his teacher taught him as proof, and he is very rooted and grounded in "the truth".

Now, this story is NOT meant as a comparison of logic and belief, although it is a decent simplification of that as well. This story is meant to show that just because someone is very grounded in their beliefs, and believes it whole heartedly, it doesn't make them right. It also shows that someone can believe and then disbelieve, or "lose faith".not that I quote myself because I like the look of my own typing, but I recently came across a page that had a similar example to this one.

Fun stuff! (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/07/all_the_mistakes_of_the_godly.php)

[SeaWeed005]

God has given us a miracle, the " holy Spirit". It is given to those that believe. And is used in those that do not believe, ( ever ask why i did that for?) When a person goes through the change taking on qualities of God, becomes Christ-like, " born again", We grow like the herb we all seem to enjoy
everyday, with care and guidance. I thank God daily for everything good or bad, for who am I to say, it's not for my benefeit. I Love God, My Lord Jesus, and the holy Spirit.. I agree its all in the bible, I pray more people read it before just repeating what another man says, Trust God.

[palerider7777]

The reason we do this is because it's a logical challenge. We don't believe in God for whatever reason so we come up with these reasons so we can test our own belief that there is no God, just like you guys come up with reasons to convince people (and yourselves) there is a God. I mean anyone can believe what they want to but to me religion is like spreading an enormous hoax, and I don't like hoaxes so I think logically to figure out the truth. My thinking has led me to the belief that there is no God

yet u have 666 in ur name um ok

[palerider7777]

not that I quote myself because I like the look of my own typing, but I recently came across a page that had a similar example to this one.

Fun stuff! (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/07/all_the_mistakes_of_the_godly.php)

could that example not go both ways?????

[Hardcore Newbie]

could that example not go both ways?????

How so?

[Delta9 UK]

If we were to be honest, I think alot of people spend more time to
come up with ways on how they can not belive in god, then to those

of us who do belive, and know what the truth is.

this is not a statement to put anybody down, just somthing to roll
around in your Head.:)

If I'm honest I think someone around here spends too much time worrying about what other people might or might not believe ;)