Male dominant hermaphrodites

[stilkikin]

Just contemplating, Has anyone ever seen one of these? If so has anyone ever used one in a breeding experiment? I'm thinking it would be a great resin enhancer if you could later breed out the hermie trait. I've never seen a male go hermie but it should be possible by my logic.

[stinkyattic]

Yes, I have seen this happen, with -of course- fucking White Rhino, the most herm-prone strain I have EVER seen.
Don't breed herms!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please? The trait is a BITCH to un-breed.
Hatch enough quality males and you WILL find a pure male with resin. I found one in a pack of Nirvana standard Papaya, of all places, wtf! But who is complaining? :D
Google 'Space Dude' and see what you get... the little guy is a hero, father to most of Subcool's work- a highly-resinated space queen male ( I want to say descended from the Ortega line) who passes on GOBS of resin to his offspring.

[stilkikin]

Allright, I spent all night searching through years worth of subscriptions because I knew I had read about this somewhere before. This is what I found, it's an excerpt from Cannabis Culture #41 2003 by Dj Short.
" Once sexed, the process of elimination may begin. All of the females are kept and regularly examined to prevent unwanted hermaphroditism. Unwanted males and all hermaphrodites must be eliminated before they shed pollen-usually by the third week in the flowering cycle. The female plants need to checked for hermaphroditism until harvests.
(A quick word on backward hermaphrodites- declared males that eventually sport female flowers- as opposed to the usual female to male hermaphrodites. Theses are semi-rare occurances, usually sterile but sometimes viable, that I have found at times to be valuable in there genetic contributions. Some of the most resinous and desirable males I have encountered exhibited this trait. This trait almost seems to guarantee against unwanted hermaphroditism in subsecquent generations as it also increases the female to male ratio in its progeny.)"
If this is the case does anyone have any idea what strains he bred with this technique? It makes me wonder because all you ever heard was "kill the hermie" when the subject came up, but then someone developed feminized seeds. If there is a use for a regular hermaphrodite why not a backward one?

[stinkyattic]

That's interesting and something I have never heard before. Reverse herms preventing female herms in later generations? Wow... that is bizarre. Sounds like the subject for a masters' thesis. And here I am thinking of going back to grad school....

[rhizome]

I don't see a reproductive advantage to the plant from this behavior(male reversal limiting female reversal in subs generations), so I'm gonna put this observation down to statistical anomaly. Certainly DJ grew out a whole lotta seeds, but I'd need data sets in the hundreds of thousands to take this as anything else.

There's a strong reproductive advantage to parthenogenesis, which is why it's so damned tough to breed out a tendency to sexual ambiguity. Assuming a gene pool of reasonable size, the advantage will always go to the hermie. In an artificially small pool, parthenogenisis might tend to reinforce negative recessives and thereby self-select out thru poor/failed fecundity. Not sure where the tipping points gonna be there.

Personal experiance has not provided anecdotal evidence ( my favorite non-sequitar) that seed from reversed male displayed gender expression signifigantly skewed from baseline

[the image reaper]

all hermies must die :smokin:

[stilkikin]

Ok I have a couple more questions, so here we go. Is there a difference between hermaphrodites that are geneticly pre-disposed to the condition and plants that are stress induced? When you stress a hermie do the genes actually mutate or is the genetic mechanism already there just waiting to be awakened by the right enviornmental/chemical/hormonal inputs? Sorry about all the questions but I have one more. Would a stress induced hermaphrodite have as much tendancy to pass on the hermaphroditic trait as a plant that shows hermaphroditism in perfect growing conditions?

[rhizome]

Any doiecous plant is capable of sexual reversion.

It is a reaction to stress ( the plant essentially covers it's reproductive bets). Some strains, and individuals within strains, will show this reaction at lower stress levels than other strains, or individuals within the same strain.

Cannabis ranges from strains and individuals which will withstand incredible stress before reversal, to strains and individuals which will reverse due to stressors so minor that the grower wont even notice.

Think of it as an allergic reaction, though it's a flawed metaphor. The same little bit of pollen will make one person miserable, while another person doesn't even notice it.

The tendency to show this reaction is genetically mediated- much as members of the same family will often have similar allergies, or proclivity to cardiac disease, or what have you. Not every member of a given family will have hayfever, or a heart attack, or whatever.

And not having a history of allergies, or cardiac disorders, or whatever in your family doesn't disqualify you from developing hayfever or having a heart attack- it's a probability game. A history of expression of a genetically modified trait ( in this case tendency to gender reversal as a reaction to a particular stressor) in genetically close individuals increases the probability of the same expression in a particular individual in reaction to the same stressor.

A "stress-induced" hermaphrodite will tend to reinforce the probability of progeny expressing reversal in reaction to the same stress. If a plant expresses reversal under " ideal " conditions, either

A.) This individual has a very low threshold before reversal is triggered, or

B.) Conditions aren't all that ideal.

There will always be a triggering stressor that causes a plant to reverse, but very very often what that stressor is will never be identified. Much more practical to eliminate the abberant individual than to identify and rectify the stressor ( which may very well not trigger any other individual in the room).

'Course, if it happens a lot, you might want to either switch to genetics which are less likely to express this behavior, or figure out what the stressor is.

[stilkikin]

I'm following you, KILL ALL HERMIES!!! Thank you for taking the time to explain all this to me, those were not short posts. Another question though, what exactly is the chemical process that takes place due to the stress triggers that cause a plant to herm? Is this related in any way to the process that takes place when a plant decides its sex?

[stinkyattic]

very very often what that stressor is will never be identified.

Much more practical to eliminate the abberant individual than to identify and rectify the stressor .

Truer words are rarely spoken.

Word.

[the image reaper]

the simple explanation (because I am not a botanist, or ever played one on television :D) is, the seed is genetically pre-determined to be either male or female ... however, the male is hardier than a female (unlike humans, where the female is superior in every way ... obviously, my girlfriend may read this, I'm taking no chances :D ) ... so, the male better withstands abuses and extremes of temperature, disease, wind, whatever ... IF a female is subjected to what it understands to be a threat to its survival, sometimes Mother Nature steps in, and reverses the sex to male, hoping that the 'male' can withstand the bad growing conditions better ... it is NOT a desirable trait ... over the years, breeders learned that pollinating a female with 'hermie male' pollen results in higher percentages of female seeds .. sounds great, doesn't it ? ... BUT, they don't tell you it GREATLY increases the odds for having hermaphroditic plants, and that faulty trait will continue in the line for generations to come, possibly forever ... that's why I personally ridicule the use of 'feminized' seeds ... lack of growers' patience WILL result in bastardized strains for the future ... you only have to look at how cannabis indica has forever 'lost' many native sativa landraces (try to find authentic 'Panama Red', 'Columbian Gold', 'Maui Wowie', etc.) ... desperate for fast-finishing, huge yielding plants, indicas have been crossed with sativas, to make 'commercial-grade' pot ... some of us, on the other hand, prefer to grow slowly, patiently, with ultra-potent sativas, and very stable crosses ... remember, this is only the opinion of an old, decrepit dirt farmer, from a bygone age :jointsmile:

[Celeste]

reaper, i agree with you 100%! herms are bad, for hermies breed more hermies.

i did, however, have a male i was keeping for pollen reverse on me. it ended up spunking my haze female, and i and a few of my freinds are growing it out to see what happens next. i'll make a thread to discuss ratios and growing conditions, etc. i will nix the project at the first sign of hermie, like i have done with others in the past.

love, lestie

[rhizome]

It's not a single chemical reaction- it's the epigentic expression of normally silenced DNA as the result of a hormone cascade. Sexual ambiguity in cannabis does seem to be most frequently triggered by photoperiod irregularity during the reproductive phase- It's not possible to state that the expression of ambiguity in an individual not known to be photostressed during flowering is the result of light stress earlier in development, as it's not possible to know that no other environmental stressor exerted influence in earlier development, because we don't know what's going to be a stressor for a certain individual. ( For instance, I cant eat FDA Red #5- blinding migraines.) We also cant know all of the possible stressors a plant has been exposed to, as anything in it's environment is a potential stressor, and we cannot be aware of all environmental factors.(For a sick joke some time, bring the ethylene level in your space up to about 150 ppm sometime- if you didn't know that the ethylene was there, you'd have no idea why all of your leaves were falling off. )

Reversal of sexual expression is a mechanism triggered by a reproductive strategy. For whatever reason, the plant has decided that it's best strategy to produce the maximum # of progeny that will survive to reproduce is to express both genders.
Lots of females will respond to non-pollination late in ripening phase by popping a few male flowers. It's pretty easy to see the reproductive advantage of this strategy- this plant will produce seed. Why not be generating pollen throughout the flowering cycle? While this stategy has a 100% chance of immediate success ( seed will be produced to reproduce next season), it's value decreases grately w/ each succeeding generation. If every individual were to only or to primarily self-pollinate, recessive negative traits will reinforce, leading to genetic drift ( which will limit the global total of individuals with which the individual can reproduce) and survival-negative genes will eventually accumulate, limiting the long-term viability of tthe genetic line. In the absence of another mechanism to limit the accumulation of negative traits, it's a dead end.

Most folks who have kept a male alive and flowering long enough will have seen a female flower on it eventually. This plant is saying to itself " Hey, I've been flowering for four months, so it must be like December! I'm still alive! This must be the best place on Earth! If I had kids here, they'd definately live long enough to reproduce!". The value of the potential breeding opportunities outweighs the cost of the reproductive investment ( forming female flowers instead of producing pollen).

Value={(potential of future reproductive opportunities) - (investment of reproductive resources)}. If Value>0, then the reproductive strategy is viable. Now the qustion becomes " What strategy will give me the highest Value?" . This computation is complicated by the presence of the two variables (potential/investment).

Now we get into the tendencies of gene lines, which can be likened to the personality of a chess player.
Some players are just more aggressive than others. Some will play a conservative game, and try to game the probabilities of each interactions. Others ( Bobbie Fischer?) will sometimes behave in seemingly random fashions which balance a low probability of return against a high value of return and a high cost.

High probability of return+high value of return+low investment of resource- you do it.
Mid prob of return+mid value of return+ low investment- you do it
Low prob of return+ mid value of return+mid investment- maybe you do, maybe not.
High prob+low return+mid investment- another maybe
Mid prob + low return+ high investment- most likely not

Furthur muddying the mix is the previous success of a strategy in a gene lines history. The individuals that pursue the most successful reproductive strategy in a given situation reproduce most successfully and therefore comprise a larger portion of the genepool that faces the next situation. If the same strategy is not the most successful in this new situation, the genepool of the next generation will be previously selected to pursue both stategies.

It's all a #'s game.

So what chemical reaction makes a plant go hermie? What makes a poker player bluff? What happened in Reykjavik? It's tough to know down to the molecule.

Certainly there are ways to chemically reverse sexual expression- colchicane will do it, as will ( anecdotaly) mega-doses of GA. But that's kinda like screwing up somebodies chess game by macing them- not whatchya'd call specific.

Hope this wasn't too long and obtuse for a non-answer.

[rhizome]

It's not a single chemical reaction- it's the epigentic expression of normally silenced DNA as the result of a hormone cascade. Sexual ambiguity in cannabis does seem to be most frequently triggered by photoperiod irregularity during the reproductive phase- It's not possible to state that the expression of ambiguity in an individual not known to be photostressed during flowering is the result of light stress earlier in development, as it's not possible to know that no other environmental stressor exerted influence in earlier development, because we don't know what's going to be a stressor for a certain individual. ( For instance, I cant eat FDA Red #5- blinding migraines.) We also cant know all of the possible stressors a plant has been exposed to, as anything in it's environment is a potential stressor, and we cannot be aware of all environmental factors.(For a sick joke some time, bring the ethylene level in your space up to about 150 ppm sometime- if you didn't know that the ethylene was there, you'd have no idea why all of your leaves were falling off. )

Reversal of sexual expression is a mechanism triggered by a reproductive strategy. For whatever reason, the plant has decided that it's best strategy to produce the maximum # of progeny that will survive to reproduce is to express both genders.
Lots of females will respond to non-pollination late in ripening phase by popping a few male flowers. It's pretty easy to see the reproductive advantage of this strategy- this plant will produce seed. Why not be generating pollen throughout the flowering cycle? While this stategy has a 100% chance of immediate success ( seed will be produced to reproduce next season), it's value decreases greatly w/ each succeeding generation. If every individual were to only or to primarily self-pollinate, recessive negative traits will reinforce, leading to genetic drift ( which will limit the global total of individuals with which the individual can reproduce) and survival-negative genes will eventually accumulate, limiting the long-term viability of tthe genetic line. In the absence of another mechanism to limit the accumulation of negative traits, it's a dead end.

Most folks who have kept a male alive and flowering long enough will have seen a female flower on it eventually. This plant is saying to itself " Hey, I've been flowering for four months, so it must be like December! I'm still alive! This must be the best place on Earth! If I had kids here, they'd definately live long enough to reproduce!". The value of the potential breeding opportunities outweighs the cost of the reproductive investment ( forming female flowers instead of producing pollen).

Value={(potential of future reproductive opportunities) - (investment of reproductive resources)}. If Value>0, then the reproductive strategy is viable. Now the qustion becomes " What strategy will give me the highest Value?" . This computation is complicated by the presence of the two variables (potential/investment).

Now we get into the tendencies of gene lines, which can be likened to the personality of a chess player.
Some players are just more aggressive than others. Some will play a conservative game, and try to game the probabilities of each interactions. Others ( Bobbie Fischer?) will sometimes behave in seemingly random fashions which balance a low probability of return against a high value of return and a high cost.

High probability of return+high value of return+low investment of resource- you do it.
Mid prob of return+mid value of return+ low investment- you do it
Low prob of return+ mid value of return+mid investment- maybe you do, maybe not.
High prob+low return+mid investment- another maybe
Mid prob + low return+ high investment- most likely not

Furthur muddying the mix is the previous success of a strategy in a gene lines history. The individuals that pursue the most successful reproductive strategy in a given situation reproduce most successfully and therefore comprise a larger portion of the genepool that faces the next situation. If the same strategy is not the most successful in this new situation, the genepool of the next generation will be previously selected to pursue both the first strategy and whatever was the most successful stategy in the second situation .

It's all a #'s game.

So what chemical reaction makes a plant go hermie? What makes a poker player bluff? What happened in Reykjavik? It's tough to know down to the molecule.

Certainly there are ways to chemically reverse sexual expression- colchicane will do it, as will ( anecdotaly) mega-doses of GA. But that's kinda like screwing up somebodies chess game by macing them- not whatchya'd call specific. or repeatable. A lot of folks played with colchicane reversal of expressed females as a pollen source to produce hybrids of clone-only cultivars a good few years back, but then I stopped hearing about it, so I'm guessing there were problems. ( Or maybe not? ) IIR, this was mostly female to male reversal, though I think it was done both ways, with varying viability.

Essentially, they were using the colchicane as a stressor to initiate reversal. No need to worry about selection twoard hermaphrodism when exposed to colchicane, though- as the odds of an accidenal colchicane exposure are just about nil. ( Again, probability...)

Hope this wasn't too long and obtuse for a non-answer.

[stilkikin]

No it wasn't to long in any way I enjoy learning all the details, It looks like I found the right place to be. What kinds of mutations have been known to happen when colchicine is applied? I read about as much on that subject as I can find but I havent found any examples of what the effects might be. I've heard about people soaking seeds in the extract of the autum crocus hoping to find a plant with increaced potency, yeild and pretty much any desireable trait. Just wondering what could come out of it.

[rhizome]

Don't know exactly- never played with it myself.
IIR, more an issue of unreliable fertility than "mutation".

Geek moment- the expression of formerly silenced DNA due to methylization isn't really a mutation, as there has been no damage to the genome.

[stinkyattic]

Rhizome you GEEK
-and I mean this in the best way!-
Quite seriously, have you ever thought maybe it would be time to write a book on horticultural techniques?
KISS attitude + scientific knowledge + good written communication = you could practically teach Britney Spears to grow orchids, lol....
I'll be awaiting publication.

[stilkikin]

Stinky, I think I would have to agree with you, he should really write a book, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.
Rhinome, thanks for the answers to my questions I appreciate you taking the time to write all of that.

[Stealth331]

Wow...Great post and answers.

Thanks

[SaH]

I just noticed one of my autoflower males just started showing female hairs. I am on 22/2 and about 80 degrees so it is not a light or temp stressed hermie and I use FoxFarm Ocean soil and do not use any nutes untill they start to flower so I also know its not stressed that way either.

S_a_H

[oldsanclem]

I must admit it must be nice to have all the time and MONEY to try it out.
1 facts of life , growing pot can get you put in jail or drug rehab.
2 The cost of even expensive seeds is cheaper than attorney fees,power cost, fert cost and last but not least the cost in hours/months.
Way back when time started lead was tried to be changed in to gold. A few hundred years later. The best thing to do with lead was to go fishing.
Feed the plants to your rabit and be happy if any of the seeds pass through the rabit, burn it. Not you have shit potash and a green garden. Grow tomatoes and sell tomatoes to buy good seeds. Be happy

[rhizome]

I just noticed one of my autoflower males just started showing female hairs. I am on 22/2 and about 80 degrees so it is not a light or temp stressed hermie and I use FoxFarm Ocean soil and do not use any nutes untill they start to flower so I also know its not stressed that way either.

S_a_H

Why are you hanging on to autoflower males?

It's not unusual for a male which is kept alive & flowering long enough to toss a few pistils. See above.

Autoflowering drug cultivars are produced by hybridizing a standard drug cultivar with a ruderalis ( a Northern European/Russian sub-species). The expression of reproductive behavior regardless of photoperiod is an entirely differant strategy, suited to extremely harsh climates with an extremely short growing season- whole differant mechanism.

I'm thinking that you still have males because your going to run off seed? Don't hold me to this, but I think that next gens may have some weird variations in flowering behavior- Seems like the line may wanna split back into an autoflower/low potency pheno and a photoperiod-determinate / more potent pheno. I dunno, though... maybe the old man in me is just resistant to progress.