To all the geeks.

[buddha]

Id like to start this thread with a hearty laugh. Anyone whose been here lately knows why. I would also like to apologize for larry being a bigot not all people who dont believe in god are so sad. Just as some catholics embarrass all others, non-believers have the same problem. And i would especially like to apologize for the word geek if i was going to insult some one i would have at least used a word that wasnt invented by a 4th grade school girl. Anyway
enough of that. The reason i have started this thread is just to ask the believers out there some questions. God is a caring loving and merciful god. If hes so caring and loving why would anyone go to hell. He is our father hence the prayer and the name he is so affectionetly given. If i had a kid and became a father i would do everything in my power to make sure that he was happy and lived the best life he could live to become the happiest he could be. Now sounds about right for any father out there except god. God is the strongest force int he univerese so much so he is the universe. If he loved his children why doesnt he use his power to save us all?

Another... did he create hell just for the children he doesnt like?

Another... if there are angels and humans why not make all beings angels so they have the privalige of starting life in heaven with god?

Another...All people are created and treated equal in the eyes of god. Satan was created because god gave him special power over other angels. Not very equal.

Another... god knows everything. why did he allow satan to become well satan?

Another...Why does he test his children when one of the ten commandments is to not test him.

Another... if the point of this life is to die and go to heaven to see god why have this life at all? why not just see god? well i just asked the meaning of life so i think ive gone to far. Any answer on any of my questions would be fabulous. Thanks geeks.

[buddha]

Oh and i dont want any one trying to answer any questions unless they have actually read my entire post and can grasp the concept of more than 10 of the words.

[juggalo420]

good questions, but dont expect any direct answers from any christians or any other 'theists', they cant respond to most of them so they get frustrated and plauged with doubt and rather do the mature thing and evaluate their beliefs they say something vaguely about 'free will' without saying its purpose, then they'll give some bible verses, and if your lucky some personal story that doesnt prove anything but is touching in a emotional way which completly distracts from the original question.

[kuulbns]

Hi, just a real quick rhetorical question. If you had a kid, and you told that kid repeatedly, do not drink and drive, this kid had seen the results of a bad drunken driving accident and you actually wrote this kid a letter, please do not drink and drive because I don't want to see you hurt and I don't want you to hurt anyone else, Love Dad. (example only) The kid then goes out, get's blasted and kills someone, is it your fault? Perhaps this kid went ahead and chose to do exactly as they had been taught not to. Is the parent responsible? ty, Kuu

P.S. Larry and I get along fine, even though we have differant opinions, we try to respect each other as people.

[kuulbns]

Hey Juggalo, you seem to be so fascinated with questioning faith, want to come to Church with me? Please don't catagorize all believers as being the same, that in itself is bigotry. As long as people are not bothering you and are respectful to you, who cares? Kuu

[juggalo420]

Hey Juggalo, you seem to be so fascinated with questioning faith, want to come to Church with me? Please don't catagorize all believers as being the same, that in itself is bigotry. As long as people are not bothering you and are respectful to you, who cares? Kuu
well i went to church for like 16 years of my life and found that it didnt do anything for me it didnt make me feel holy or good. I read the bible plenty of times(the whole thing from genesis to revalations about 3xs) the more i read it the more contradictions i saw in it and doubts i had. I do find religion an extremly facsinating subject, anything that can dictate peoples lives interest me, i like talking about it and hearing other peoples view on different aspects of it.

[juggalo420]

Hey Juggalo, you seem to be so fascinated with questioning faith, want to come to Church with me? Please don't catagorize all believers as being the same, that in itself is bigotry. As long as people are not bothering you and are respectful to you, who cares? Kuu
The only religious people that bother me are the crazy fundalmentalists like bin ladin or timothy mcveigh, who i view as dangerous, all others i try to be respectful to and i think i am, but that doesnt mean i cant criticize and debate religion with them, im not criticizing the person just the faith.

p.s if you ever come down from maine to massachussettes or if i go up there for summer vaction id be happy to attend a church service with you.

[Lulu]

The only religious people that bother me are the crazy fundalmentalists like bin ladin or timothy mcveigh, who i view as dangerous, all others i try to be respectful to and i think i am, but that doesnt mean i cant criticize and debate religion with them, im not criticizing the person just the faith.
Actually juggalo420 I deleted a recent post of yours from the thread From Fetus to Baby that was far from respectful and extremely critical of another member. Just because you feel that another person doesn't have the same standard of education as you, doesn't give you the right to look down your nose at them. Personal digs like that are unacceptable.

[juggalo420]

Actually juggalo420 I deleted a recent post of yours from the thread From Fetus to Baby that was far from respectful and extremely critical of another member. Just because you feel that another person doesn't have the same standard of education as you, doesn't give you the right to look down your nose at them. Personal digs like that are unacceptable.
well everyone slips up now and again, and i hope you read in the post how i used the word TRY when speaking about the respect i give. Yeah i may have went a little overboard calling someone a 'uneducated redneck',it does add little towards civil discourse. So thanks for the cencorship, is that a dig?
Peace

[kuulbns]

Hi Juggalo, I actually go to Mass. quite often as I have loads of family there. And if you do find that you're going to be in Maine, give me a shout, I'ld love to have a smoke with ya and show you around a bit, ( like being with your Granny haha). Kuu

[Lulu]

well everyone slips up now and again, and i hope you read in the post how i used the word TRY when speaking about the respect i give. Yeah i may have went a little overboard calling someone a ********** *******,it does add little towards civil discourse. So thanks for the cencorship, is that a dig?
Peace
Your welcome about the censorship :rolleyes:
Now that was a dig :p
(sry cudn't resist :o )

Forget about it - now back to our scheduled programs.... ;)

[FrenchInhale]

Id like to start this thread with a hearty laugh. Anyone whose been here lately knows why. I would also like to apologize for larry being a bigot not all people who dont believe in god are so sad. Just as some catholics embarrass all others, non-believers have the same problem. And i would especially like to apologize for the word geek if i was going to insult some one i would have at least used a word that wasnt invented by a 4th grade school girl. Anyway
enough of that. The reason i have started this thread is just to ask the believers out there some questions. God is a caring loving and merciful god. If hes so caring and loving why would anyone go to hell. He is our father hence the prayer and the name he is so affectionetly given. If i had a kid and became a father i would do everything in my power to make sure that he was happy and lived the best life he could live to become the happiest he could be. Now sounds about right for any father out there except god. God is the strongest force int he univerese so much so he is the universe. If he loved his children why doesnt he use his power to save us all?

Another... did he create hell just for the children he doesnt like?

Another... if there are angels and humans why not make all beings angels so they have the privalige of starting life in heaven with god?

Another...All people are created and treated equal in the eyes of god. Satan was created because god gave him special power over other angels. Not very equal.

Another... god knows everything. why did he allow satan to become well satan?

Another...Why does he test his children when one of the ten commandments is to not test him.

Another... if the point of this life is to die and go to heaven to see god why have this life at all? why not just see god? well i just asked the meaning of life so i think ive gone to far. Any answer on any of my questions would be fabulous. Thanks geeks.

God is just like a parent, hence "God the father"... your parents have you and do everything in their power to make sure you are ok, but when you go against their will you are on your own.. the same with God... he will help you until you deny him... then you are on your own.. Hell's root meaning is "the absense of God" so God created hell for people who deny him... if they won't want him in this life... why would God let them come to him in the next? Angels are God's "tools" they do work for him... think of angels as God's power tools... he uses them to get things done... everyone can't be an angel... then there would be no need for angels. Satan was one of God's arch-angels... arch-angels are higher on the totem pole then regular angels.. Arch-angels have more important jobs and are closer to God than other angels. Satan tried to betray God... he was an angel who tried to take over heaven... God banished Satan from heaven... he still loved Satan so instead of just destroying him he banished him. And he allowed him to rule over hell. One of the ten commandments is not to test God, not for God to test us. God can do whatever he wants he is God... and just because bad things happen doesn't mean its God's fault... you know their are demons that work for satan that have powers and can do things to people. Their is no purpose to life other than to glorify God... God made us so there could be "something" in his likeness here on earth. I like to think God made us in the sense that it would be a good play toy for him. He enjoys looking at us and see what we do... we are like G.I. Joe's... well there is the answer to all of your questions through my beliefs.... hope that helps.

[FrenchInhale]

Also another reason why it is so hard for christians to defend their faith is that MOST christians aren't deep enough in their faith to defend it... they just know "the basics" try to have a religious conversation with someone like Jerry Fauldwell... I bet he could battle you point for point until the end of time... It is easy to believe religion... it is hard to understand and know all about a religion... most people never know enough about their religion to have a decent point of view on it.

[buddha]

I like to think God made us in the sense that it would be a good play toy for him. He enjoys looking at us and see what we do... we are like G.I. Joe's...

You like to think that? Well at least out of all these posts some one tried to answer somthing. Alot of the points you made though really cant be disputed on either side because we cant have any tangible proof towrds either.
But ok yes i know about angels and arch angels ive never heard them called tools before but good explination i guess. Still though god favored satan and gave him extra power over all the other agnels knowing that he would try to rise up against him. And that he would have to send him to hell. So if hes such a loving all knowing god why would he do somthing that would cause such chaos in heaven, when he knew an eternity in advance that this would happen? Well guys i just decided im tired of asking questions and getting hypothetical answers and contradictory explanations.

[buddha]

If god is so pefect and divine why is everything he creates so far from perfect and divine?

[FrenchInhale]

God let everything that happens happen because he gives everyone free choice... and he gave Satan free choice... Satan is the biggest deceiver of all time... and he deceived Angels to believe that he could be greater than God... God didn't give him any special powers that would benifit him from other Angels in that sense... besides deception... And the reason why everything isn't so perfect and divine.. is because that is heaven... that is the whole reason why christians do what they do... they want to get to a place perfect and divine. And the G.I. Joe's thing was just an example for lack of a better one.

[GHoSToKeR]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no!!

This is a hypothetical situation that I would like you to consider -

You build a toy remote-control boat. You make it beautiful, absolutely gorgeous, with it's own sails, decorations, engine and rotor etc.. You're proud of your work. You admire it, and then you set it down on a river. You turn it on, hit the 'Forward' button on the remote-control, and the boats rotor kicks in, and away it goes, straight down the river. But then, as you follow it, walking along the bank of the river, you see a waterfall, 100 metres ahead. The boat is heading straight for it - it will surely be destroyed. Now, you've created this beautiful thing, and you're extremely proud of it. Surely the best course of action would be either to turn the boat around, using the remote-control, or to simply cut the engine. Any sane, rational human-being would agree with me. You know that the boat cannot see the waterfall coming - it cannot forsee its own demise - but you can, and yet you choose to do nothing. Nada. Not a thing. You created this thing, you set it on its way, and you had the power to stop it from destruction, but instead, you decide to sit back and watch it be destroyed.

Another hypothetical scenario:

You buy a kitten from a pet-store. It's 2 months old. You nurse it, nurture it, mother it. Eventually, the kitten, as it matures, starts to think of you as its parent. It loves you, it listens to you, and it obeys you. As it experiments by moving around the house, hiding in different places, playing with different objects, you tell it which things it should and shouldnt do, and reward or punish it accordingly. The kitten is only now a couple of months old, and is not big enough to jump out of the window, onto the motorway below.

Then suddely one day, you realize it is big enough to jump on to the windowledge, and out of the window. When you get home from work one day, you find the cat at the edge of the window, about to drop down, so you grab it, tell it not to do that again. The next day, you get home from work, and the cat is on the windowledge again. But this time, you dont grab it; you dont yell at it; you dont stop it. In your opinion, you've told the cat that jumping out of the window is wrong, and that it shouldnt be done, so now, you believe, if the cat jumps out of the window and dies, then it is nobodies fault but its own - once you told the cat not to do it once, it shouldnt have done it again, its not your responsibility.

If you think about it, what makes the relationship between God and us any different to the hypothetical relationship between you and the boat, or you and the cat? If a loving parent tells you not to do something dangerous or wrong, it will still try and save you from that danger, or stop you from doing that thing, no matter how many times you try.. Laugh if you want, but im stoned, and those hypothetical thingys made sense to me lol

[boywonder]

If god is so pefect and divine why is everything he creates so far from perfect and divine?
i wouldnt say i was a beliver in 'god' but i think on this earth pretty much everything is perfect in a way some kinda way. like life cycles things grow and die.it's fuckin kool where living in great times yeah people are dieing at least you and i am not dead and if i was i wouldnt even know about it so like it dosent matter.this life is perfect for the reason i can do nething i want and the natural world is pretty kool u have to admit and course we have got weed :)
you know what i mean interesting fact in 20 years a person loses all their origainal cells and replaces them mayb abit more wrinkled its well fucked. it's liek where not even the same original person but we are. i think i read it yesterday invisible landscape.

[Euphoric]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no!!

This is a hypothetical situation that I would like you to consider -

You build a toy remote-control boat. You make it beautiful, absolutely gorgeous, with it's own sails, decorations, engine and rotor etc.. You're proud of your work. You admire it, and then you set it down on a river. You turn it on, hit the 'Forward' button on the remote-control, and the boats rotor kicks in, and away it goes, straight down the river. But then, as you follow it, walking along the bank of the river, you see a waterfall, 100 metres ahead. The boat is heading straight for it - it will surely be destroyed. Now, you've created this beautiful thing, and you're extremely proud of it. Surely the best course of action would be either to turn the boat around, using the remote-control, or to simply cut the engine. Any sane, rational human-being would agree with me. You know that the boat cannot see the waterfall coming - it cannot forsee its own demise - but you can, and yet you choose to do nothing. Nada. Not a thing. You created this thing, you set it on its way, and you had the power to stop it from destruction, but instead, you decide to sit back and watch it be destroyed.

Another hypothetical scenario:

You buy a kitten from a pet-store. It's 2 months old. You nurse it, nurture it, mother it. Eventually, the kitten, as it matures, starts to think of you as its parent. It loves you, it listens to you, and it obeys you. As it experiments by moving around the house, hiding in different places, playing with different objects, you tell it which things it should and shouldnt do, and reward or punish it accordingly. The kitten is only now a couple of months old, and is not big enough to jump out of the window, onto the motorway below.

Then suddely one day, you realize it is big enough to jump on to the windowledge, and out of the window. When you get home from work one day, you find the cat at the edge of the window, about to drop down, so you grab it, tell it not to do that again. The next day, you get home from work, and the cat is on the windowledge again. But this time, you dont grab it; you dont yell at it; you dont stop it. In your opinion, you've told the cat that jumping out of the window is wrong, and that it shouldnt be done, so now, you believe, if the cat jumps out of the window and dies, then it is nobodies fault but its own - once you told the cat not to do it once, it shouldnt have done it again, its not your responsibility.

If you think about it, what makes the relationship between God and us any different to the hypothetical relationship between you and the boat, or you and the cat? If a loving parent tells you not to do something dangerous or wrong, it will still try and save you from that danger, or stop you from doing that thing, no matter how many times you try.. Laugh if you want, but im stoned, and those hypothetical thingys made sense to me lol


sorry ghost but i gotta give you props for that one! i disgree with your point but hey :)

[Purge]

ok. there have been many many gods and religions throughout time, how much sense does it make that ONE religion is right and that this ONE "god" ruled over all us and creates and what not, and this has always been this way..ok that doesnt make any sense at all. where was "god" during greek and roman times when they worshipped many gods? christianity wasnt even created before 1 a.d., so one day got just decided to make this dude named jesus christ and he sent him down to earth just to let us all know about him, but yeah fuck everyone elses beleifs cuz thats the one true relgion? no i dont think so.

[Euphoric]

maybe we should combine every religion...kind of like that disturbed album. we'll call it a global compromise

[sugarmagnolia]

i will not touch the questions but ur post does remind me of a South Park episode that was wise at the end:

Jesus was going to be crucified by South Park unless God appeared yadi yadi yada. He was all sad and thought God didn't love him cause he would not help him, when he realized this: if every problem is solved for u then u lack free will. If God stopped every killer they would lack free will.

A perfect world for u could be hell for another.

Well I am an atheist myself, but I liked that South Parks whole morale, I had never thought of it that way. Although not believing in a god because the world isn't nice is completely absurd. I cna only say that I do not believe in a God and all that stuff because there is no evidence for him and that I don't really believe in magic.

[GHoSToKeR]

Cheers, Euphoric :)

The way I see it, if you can beleve in God, then why not believe in Unicorns ((I mean, come on, its a horse with a fucking seat on its head!)), Leprechauns, King-Kong, Fairies, Pixies, Elves, Santa and Barbera Streisand. There's just as much proof that they exist as there is for God.

[FrenchInhale]

Christianity's God is the same God as the Jews and Muslims God... just Muslims and Jews don't believe that Jesus was the son of God.

[heartsurgerysurviver]

Hi budda
I'll try to answer your questions for you, These are only my points of view and not of any organised religion.

Another... did he create hell just for the children he doesnt like?

Hell is for people who do really bad things, rape, murder, molesting children, etc.

Another... if there are angels and humans why not make all beings angels so they have the privalige of starting life in heaven with god?

humans, us, are born to experiance life, who'd have it any other way, where angles are souls, already in heaven either having experianced life and died or they were in heaven from its begining.

Another...All people are created and treated equal in the eyes of god. Satan was created because god gave him special power over other angels. Not very equal.
the last answer covers this question too although satan brings the evil part in the good vs. evil battles.


Another... god knows everything. why did he allow satan to become well satan?

free will, satan , the angles, us , we all have it.

Another...Why does he test his children when one of the ten commandments is to not test him.

we have free will to choose good or evil, you know deep down inside of you, like we all do, wether somethings we do are right or wrong, it's a part of life, choosing what one will do, it is a test of sorts that as some awaits death they reflect back. wouldn't it be in one's best interest to have good things to ponder at that time?

Another... if the point of this life is to die and go to heaven to see god why have this life at all? why not just see god? well i just asked the meaning of life so i think ive gone to far. Any answer on any of my questions would be fabulous. Thanks geeks.

The point of life is not to die but to live. Dieing is the end of life not the point of it. You, everyone, should enjoy each day, grasping at each one and squeezing all one can out of every second. Tell ever one you love just how you feel and treat them that way. Disreguard the ones you don't like, don't waste a second of your time on them, remember you're trying to squeeze the most out of every day, why spend it on them?

peace
heart

[GHoSToKeR]

if God was all powerful, why would he need angels?

[FrenchInhale]

if God was all powerful, why would he need angels?

Maybe he's lazy? I dunno ill ask him when I get to heaven.

[GHoSToKeR]

i take it from your answer that youre a christian

[FrenchInhale]

i take it from your answer that youre a christian

Indeed... O yeah I just thought of the reason that God has angels... remember the burning bush??? God's radiance was so powerful that it blinded that guy.... well angels are God's messengers... people can't see God because his radiance is blinding... just a theory I was thinking of...

[juggalo420]

Indeed... O yeah I just thought of the reason that God has angels... remember the burning bush??? God's radiance was so powerful that it blinded that guy.... well angels are God's messengers... people can't see God because his radiance is blinding... just a theory I was thinking of...
if god is so powerful, why cant he just make himself less radiant. or he could at least inform people to wear some sun glasses before he shows up.

*any way in the burning bush episode i wasnt aware moses went blind.
*adam and eve saw god in the garden all the time before they got evicted.
*also moses was on top of a mountain with god getting the commandments.
*also peter, john, and james supposedly saw god at jesus's transfiguration and didnt go blind, they were just a little shocked by the brightness.
*also in christian dogma jesus is the second member of the trinity and himself in every way god, yet many people supposedly saw him, same goes for the holy spirit who is also suppose to be fully god he/it wasnt blinding when he/it showed up at jesus's baptism or at the pentacost.

^not that i believe in any of it, i use to be christian so i know my stuff.

[GHoSToKeR]

if god is so powerful, why cant he just make himself less radiant. or he could at least inform people to wear some sun glasses before he shows up.

*any way in the burning bush episode i wasnt aware moses went blind.
*adam and eve saw god in the garden all the time before they got evicted.
*also moses was on top of a mountain with god getting the commandments.
*also peter, john, and james supposedly saw god at jesus's transfiguration and didnt go blind, they were just a little shocked by the brightness.
*also in christian dogma jesus is the second member of the trinity and himself in every way god, yet many people supposedly saw him, same goes for the holy spirit who is also suppose to be fully god he/it wasnt blinding when he/it showed up at jesus's baptism or at the pentacost.

^not that i believe in any of it, i use to be christian so i know my stuff.
exactly my point

if god was all powerful, then he would make him less less radient and blinding

if he was all powerful, it wouldnt have taken him a week to make the world, and if it take him a week to make the world, how long did it take to make the universe? surely for an all powerful god, he could create itand destroy it with a click of his fingers

if hes all powerful, whats the use in angels?

if hes all powerful, why didnt he go down to earth and prove himself to anyone who doubted him?

if hes all powerful, what would be the need for jesus?

[F L E S H]

I really dislike debates like this one. I think people who refer to biblical events as if they really happened are in for a big surprise.

Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe the stories told in the Bible were NOT meant to be taken literally? That they are moral lessons, nothing more?

THE BIBLE IS NOT HISTORY. The people who believe it to be such were fooled by the establishment that is the Church (Catholic, Baptist, Anglican, whatever).

[F L E S H]

(sorry for double post, this just occurred to me)

If any of you so-called Christians out there truly were believers, you could out-debate any skeptic out there who constantly points out inconsistencies with 3 little words:

It doesn't matter.

A true believer easily sees beyond the petty contradictions, beyond the the stories and sees the all-encompassing point. Questions like "if God is so powerful, why does he ______" (fill in the blank) are absolutely meaningless. The Bible was written by HUMANS (don't give me any bullshit about divine inspiration, it doesn't make humans any better...) and therefore it's imperfect.

Does believing evry single word in the bible literally make one a better Christian than one who goes beyond simple words and sees the Bible for what it is, as a guide and a general direction to follow?

But that's just me.... I'm even giving you guys a head start on the next biblical debate, the least you can do is thank me :D

[juggalo420]

I really dislike debates like this one. I think people who refer to biblical events as if they really happened are in for a big surprise.

Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe the stories told in the Bible were NOT meant to be taken literally? That they are moral lessons, nothing more?

THE BIBLE IS NOT HISTORY. The people who believe it to be such were fooled by the establishment that is the Church (Catholic, Baptist, Anglican, whatever).
I think Christians more or less have to take the bible literally. Christians have taken the bible literally since it was first comprised, why else would thousands accept death at the hands of the Romans rather than denying their faith in Jesus. Literal interpretation of the bible is practiced by almost every denomination, metaphorical interpretation on large scale is relatively a new phenomenon started with the Unitarians in the 19th century and continued today with other liberal â??Christianâ?? groups but they are still in the minority. Sure there was the Gnostics and other small groups through history that didnâ??t take the bible literally but they never gained much ground.

While you may argue that the literal interpretation was invented by the established churches, I counter by saying the bible created the established churches. I mean in the bible itself it says how Jesus said to Peter you are the rock that I will build my church upon, Jesus also says that those who listen to you (talking to the apostles) listen and obey me and those that deny you deny me. And who put the bible together in the first place, the church did, they did at the council of Nicea, they put it together therefore I hold they have the right to interpret it in the manner they see fit. The arguments you give about how you shouldnâ??t take the bible literally, while legitimate, I wouldnâ??t call Christian, and I would call it more or less new age humanism.

Again I donâ??t believe the bible to be any more than a work of fiction, some of it has good morals, while lots of it doesnâ??t ( I mean read Leviticus death was the punishment for almost every crime in it).

[FrenchInhale]

Your right flesh... so to answer you guys questions... it doesn't matter.. I believe you don't... I don't see you as any less of a person... just a person with different views... hell if I wasn't brought up so religious I probably wouldn't beleive it myself... but since I grew up with it.. I believe... I have many life experiences that I feel could not have happened without God... so if their isn't a God then I am the luckiest person on the planet.

[XTC]

These threads are getting old. As I said before Why should God spare people. Really why. He made us have freewill. He made us know what good and bad. Everything we do has an effect. In this life or the next. I am sure he has a lot going on up there with the ever never ending battle between good and evil. Anyways why should he babysit us humans. If he did that, then we would live without consequence. We are ultimately responsible for each other and what goes on in this world. Not him. Think of it like this. Think of your mother or father or whoever as God. Now you (Humans) keeping do bad things like Stealing, robbing etc. Now everytime you did this. Mom would come and bail you out of jail and pay money out her ass to see it that you do not spend anytime in jail or prison. So you (Humans) think well Hell I can do anything I damn wish without any punishiment because mom (God) will ALWAYS be there to fix all my mistakes and make everything happy in my life. Its simple as this people. CAUSALITY No one else or other higer being is Responsible or should even take notice!

[F L E S H]

While you may argue that the literal interpretation was invented by the established churches, I counter by saying the bible created the established churches. I mean in the bible itself it says how Jesus said to Peter you are the rock that I will build my church upon, Jesus also says that those who listen to you (talking to the apostles) listen and obey me and those that deny you deny me. And who put the bible together in the first place, the church did, they did at the council of Nicea, they put it together therefore I hold they have the right to interpret it in the manner they see fit. The arguments you give about how you shouldnâ??t take the bible literally, while legitimate, I wouldnâ??t call Christian, and I would call it more or less new age humanism.

Of course, any one can interpret the Bible any way they want, and they can get together with other people who think along similar lines. My gripe against the first Christian leaders is that they intentionally mislead the people by making what was commonly understood to be myth into historical fact.

Take the gospels for example. I'm sure everyone's familiar with the broad lines of Jesus's life. Now, has anyone read other ancient biographies of mythical heroes? The story of the lives of Horus (Egyptian god), Moses, Hercules, Romulus (legendary founder of Rome) are almost exactly identical, with one major exception: the gospels present Jesus's version as completely historical and factual. Almost all these people had 'virgin births' (Isis was a virgin when Horus was born, so was Romulus's mother, and Hercules's father was Zeus (i.e. a holy spirit)). All were in danger of being killed when they were babies (Horus and Hercules had to fend off serpents when they were toddlers, Moses and Jesus had to be kept away from officials who were under orders to kill all male newborns). The list goes on and on, but you get the point.

The point is this: Jesus's 'life' had been played out so many times before in older religions and mythologies that it cannot be possible that the Gospels are factual. From this comes the reasoning that it's NOT SUPPOSED to be factual, but mythological, legendary. It makes sense to me.

[juggalo420]

Of course, any one can interpret the Bible any way they want, and they can get together with other people who think along similar lines. My gripe against the first Christian leaders is that they intentionally mislead the people by making what was commonly understood to be myth into historical fact.

Take the gospels for example. I'm sure everyone's familiar with the broad lines of Jesus's life. Now, has anyone read other ancient biographies of mythical heroes? The story of the lives of Horus (Egyptian god), Moses, Hercules, Romulus (legendary founder of Rome) are almost exactly identical, with one major exception: the gospels present Jesus's version as completely historical and factual. Almost all these people had 'virgin births' (Isis was a virgin when Horus was born, so was Romulus's mother, and Hercules's father was Zeus (i.e. a holy spirit)). All were in danger of being killed when they were babies (Horus and Hercules had to fend off serpents when they were toddlers, Moses and Jesus had to be kept away from officials who were under orders to kill all male newborns). The list goes on and on, but you get the point.

The point is this: Jesus's 'life' had been played out so many times before in older religions and mythologies that it cannot be possible that the Gospels are factual. From this comes the reasoning that it's NOT SUPPOSED to be factual, but mythological, legendary. It makes sense to me.
I have a better idea of what your talking about now thanks for the explanation. But to be honest i really dont believe that the pre-christian religions adhearants viewed their religion as myths not facts. I think they thought there religions where factual, heres some examples of what im talking about.
* pharohs where supposedly gods on earth, i see the follows of ancient egyptian religion as tottally believing that pharoh was in fact god, they built pyramids and other monuments out of not slavery but free will.
* as with the romans they borrowed much from the egyptians and greeks, there populace viewed the emperor as god, and those who didnt worship him were punished with death (as was the case when early christians didnt worship him).
* the jews in the beggining of judaism conquered the land of palestine from the tribes who originally lived there, because they believed god told them to, would they do such in fullfilment of a myth, i doubt it.
* lets travel to pre-columbus america, the aztecs would sacrafice humans in order to please the gods, would they sacrafice to mythology?
* heres a dirty part of christianty, after the emperor constantine made christianity the official religion of the empire christians 'converted' many pagans in germany and other parts of northern europe by the sword, killing untold numbers of pagans unwilling to convert to christianity. Why would the 'pagans' not give up there beliefs and be willing to die from them had they not believed their faith to be true?

Thats just how i see it. I view general similarities between christianity and other near east and mediteranian faiths as them building upon the theologys of other each other, but which each ones adhearants completely believing there faith to be true and unique. heres how i view it = egyptian myth passes to the greeks its then built upon then passed to the romans where it waits for christianity in the form of virgin births and salvation. Judaism is unique unto itself because it is monotheistic and passes that trait unto christanity as well as its history for which christans call the old testament. Also the persian religion of zorosterism passes on its ideas of parralells between good and evil, as well as function and look of angels unto christianity. So i see christianity as a mix of egyptian greek roman jewish and persian religions.
thats just how i see it.

[F L E S H]

* pharohs where supposedly gods on earth, i see the follows of ancient egyptian religion as tottally believing that pharoh was in fact god, they built pyramids and other monuments out of not slavery but free will.
* as with the romans they borrowed much from the egyptians and greeks, there populace viewed the emperor as god, and those who didnt worship him were punished with death (as was the case when early christians didnt worship him).

As far as Pharaohs were concerned, I think it was a purely political tool to set them apart from the rest of the population, in essence they made themselves gods the same way medieval kings had 'divine right' to rule. As for Rome, living emperors were rarely (only the crazy ones, e.g. Caligula, Commodus, Diocletian, and a few others) considered and worshipped as gods. However, once they died, the good emperors 'became' gods, emperors such Julius Caesar, Augustus, Vespasian, Titus, many others. But this is more political than purely religious, and I don't think any literally thought them to be gods.


* the jews in the beggining of judaism conquered the land of palestine from the tribes who originally lived there, because they believed god told them to, would they do such in fullfilment of a myth, i doubt it.
That's what it says in the Bible.... and it plays into my point very nicely :D Because the Bible says it, doesn't mean that's the way it happened. You could say the same thing about the Crusades, about the Jihad, about the War in Iraq. In fact, archaeological evidence shows that the Jews did not invade Canaan, they always lived there....


* heres a dirty part of christianty, after the emperor constantine made christianity the official religion of the empire christians 'converted' many pagans in germany and other parts of northern europe by the sword, killing untold numbers of pagans unwilling to convert to christianity. Why would the 'pagans' not give up there beliefs and be willing to die from them had they not believed their faith to be true?

It's not even question of which religion is true or not at this point. If Muslims, or Hindus, or Jews, or Buddhists or whoever else came and pointed a gun to your head telling you to convert or die, wouldn't you fight back? Wouldn't all the peoples of the world fight? It's not even a question of religion anymore, it's basic civil rights.

(I'm not gonna comment on the Aztecs because I know next to nothing about them, but point taken :D)

You bring up some valid points, Juggalo, and you know your history, I like that! (I'm a history major lol) By the way, just to clear some things up, Constantine did not make Christianity the official religion, he began by tolerating it and recognizing it as one of the official religions of Rome. I think it was Theodosius, in 385 or around there, who made it the sole official religion of Rome, though paganism managed to hang on until the 500s...

[F L E S H]

(couldn't edit in time lol)

I think another way of putting it is what I wrote in another thread, the powerful will inevitably claim a monopoly on Knowledge to help control the masses. Of course I'm sure many people believed some of the ancients myths literally, but the educated elite certainly did not, nor the the various priests. That's the difference between them and Christianity. The elite and the bishops and such themselves were telling people that the myths were historical fact, not myth.

[meek mike]

If he loved his children why doesnt he use his power to save us all?

Free will.

Another... did he create hell just for the children he doesnt like?

No

Another... if there are angels and humans why not make all beings angels so they have the privalige of starting life in heaven with god?

Angels are servers, made to serve God and humans. I'm glad he made me a human. But to answer your question. I don't know why God didn't.

Another...All people are created and treated equal in the eyes of god. Satan was created because god gave him special power over other angels. Not very equal.

I don't think satan has special powers over other angels but of course I could be wrong. I think satan was more of the upper managment that didn't want to serve people he felt were lower then himself (humans).

Another... god knows everything. why did he allow satan to become well satan?

That darn free will thing again.

Another...Why does he test his children when one of the ten commandments is to not test him.

I'm not sure God tests us. Again I don't know. I just hope if he does I pass.

Another... if the point of this life is to die and go to heaven to see god why have this life at all?

In my prayers I often ask that. I personaly would much rather be in heaven but then I wouldn't have had the free will for myself to choose to do the bad along with the good.

why not just see god?

I don't know if I will ever see God. I know I'll see Jesus when I die and Jesus is God but I don't know if I'll ever see God in his natural form.

I didn't read all the other posts on this thread so I hope someone else answered the questions. I don't know the answers to everything but I hope I
did help.

Rev. Michael T
Soldier for Christ

[F L E S H]

read my posts, mike, I'm sure you'll enjoy.... :eek:


:D

[XTC]

Ya Mike me and you said the same thing, but your was better than my metaphore