Michael Moore's $1,000,000,000,000 target.

[sickstrings84]

Did anybody else see Michael Moore on the Oprah show (yes I watch Oprah sometimes) talking about his new film "Sicko" confronting the trillion dollar Health Insurance industry?? Health care has always been a huge issue with me, since I haven't had any (except when I was in the Army) and I really hope this film stirs up some shit and maybe the US can catch up with all the other coutries who already have free health care.

[Skink]

Would be nice to stop greed,,, but I don't think so...

[sickstrings84]

Would be nice to stop greed,,, but I don't think so...

Greed fuels this fascist money pit known as the USA and I can't agree more that it's highly unlikely to change anything. Just more "Delusional thoughts from Fantasy Island".

[Purple Banana]

Michael Moore... I agree with a lot of his messages, just sometimes it seems he needs to find a better way to get them across to a wider range of people.

This documentary coming up, though, I am *VERY* excited about. As a health care worker, I see people get fucked over time and time again by those bastards, the health insurance and pharmaceutical companies. Seriously, they really need a BIG foot up the ass, and I think Michael Moore has got the steel-toed boots on.

[sickstrings84]

...and I think Michael Moore has got the steel-toed boots on.

He does seem rather passionate about this one.

[cannabis campbell]

Lol i can honestly say i have never heard of him

must only be famous in america..

[Its a Plant]

He does seem rather passionate about this one.
I bet you anything he's FAR more passionate about FOOD...

It's not in WHAT you say, but HOW you say it, and for me, my dear god, I can't stand that obese fuck. :jointsmile:

[sickstrings84]

I bet you anything he's FAR more passionate about FOOD...

It's not in WHAT you say, but HOW you say it, and for me, my dear god, I can't stand that obese fuck. :jointsmile:

hahahaha...He is a fatass...I saw a bumper sticker once that said "If guns kill people then spoons made Michael Moore get fat."

Slob or not though, I really think corrupt health care is a huge issue and I commend him for having the balls to go against the Insurance companies, somebody had to and not many people in this country would have the sand to follow through with it.

[Skink]

Hey is Hillery still saying she's gonna fix healthcare???

[Psycho4Bud]

"The law demands and requires that a corporation like a health insurance company maximize the profits for the shareholders, and if they donâ??t do that, theyâ??re violating the law. â?¦ If they are required by law to make a profit, and the only way they can make a profit is by denying claims or cutting people off of their insurance or never taking them on in the first place, then thatâ??s not good for us."

LMAO! And what law is this again? I'd rather feed the health care system with thousands than his lieing fat ass the price of admission to the movie.

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[sickstrings84]

The issue isn't just the cost of health care.....It's the 18,000 people each year who die because insurance companies deny valid claims.

[Breukelen advocaat]

In Cuba, the best hospitals and health treatments are for the politicians, upper classes and tourists. The average Cuban citizen gets lousy health care.

Despite my objections to Castro, I never thought that we should have boycotted Cuba for all these years. It generates sympathy for him, among other things.


New York Daily News

Moore's 'Sicko' gives all too pleasant view of Cuba's health care

BY RAFAEL SALINAS

Monday, June 4th 2007


Celebrity filmmaker Michael Moore has brushed shoulders with plenty of famous and powerful people over the years. He should meet someone who is neither: my cousin.

Moore's latest documentary, "Sicko" - which opens this month - aims to skewer the sad state of U.S. health care, in part by comparing it unfavorably to what Moore considers Cuba's sparkling system of national care. In a signature stunt, he brings a few American citizens who couldn't get proper care here down to Cuba - where they get the treatment they need.

As usual, Moore's logic needs a checkup. The man stretches his argument into caricature and discredits himself by cherrypicking facts. To assume that Cuban citizens are getting the medical attention they need because a party of foreigners got treated decently is akin to praising prison food because you got offered a nice spread of cold cuts after the warden took you on a tour.

If Moore had taken a moment to have a little chat with my cousin, a Cuban doctor, he would have learned much more about the true state of health care in Castro's Cuba.

She's not difficult to find. Just go to her town about six hours outside of Havana and look for the woman who's missing half her left leg and trudging down the dirt covered roads on crutches to see her patients.

Though my cousin is readily available to do her job, she's frustrated daily by the lack of medicine and supplies that can facilitate the healing process. Most weeks, not even aspirin is available.

And about that leg: It's the result of a bad motorcycle accident 22 years ago. Yet in all the time that has passed since then, the Cuban health care system has not been able to provide her with either a proper prosthetic or even a motorized chair. We sent her the latter. It sits in the corner, awaiting a replacement battery, unavailable on the island.

And those who decry America's health care as stratified should save some outrage for Cuba - where tourists like Moore and Communist party officials get all kinds of care that's out of reach for Cuba's 11 million average citizens. The fact that the vast majority of them often have to bring their own food, soap and sheets to the hospital somehow didn't make it into the final cut of "Sicko."

This tale of two Cubas is typical. When I visited family in 2003, I had my pick of provisions - including extra food, toilet paper and clothes, none of which Cubans could buy on their own. Their salaries do not allow for such "luxuries," and even if they did, the stores only accepted American currency. Many are in dire need of these supplies, yet the government quotas offer too little to sustain them.

Yes, the average Cuban life span is about 77 years - comparable to what it is in the United States. But that doesn't factor in all those who flee the country, and it is likely skewed by Cuba's high rate of abortion, which tends to inflate life expectancy by driving down infant mortality.

I support Moore's right to say what he wants. Here in the U.S., we're allowed (and often even encouraged) to criticize our government. But that doesn't give him license to use a distorted lens to produce a cinematic love letter to Castro's Cuba.

It's enough to give me and my cousin a headache. And only one of us has the aspirin to dull the pain.

Salinas, the son of Cuban exiles, lives in Queens

Moore's 'Sicko' gives all too pleasant view of Cuba's health care (http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/06/03/2007-06-03_moores_sicko_gives_all_too_pleasant_view.html)

[Psycho4Bud]

Despite my objections to Castro, I never thought that we should have boycotted Cuba for all these years. It generates sympathy for him, among other things.

Ya always have to look for a silver lining dude! LOL..........here's this one:

Michael Moore Faces U.S. Treasury Probe
The Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control notified Moore in a letter dated May 2 that it was conducting a civil investigation for possible violations of the U.S. trade embargo restricting travel to Cuba. A copy of the letter was obtained Tuesday by the AP.

"This office has no record that a specific license was issued authorizing you to engage in travel-related transactions involving Cuba," Dale Thompson, OFAC chief of general investigations and field operations, wrote in the letter to Moore.

In February, Moore took about 10 ailing workers from the Ground Zero rescue effort in Manhattan for treatment in Cuba, said a person working with the filmmaker on the release of "Sicko." The person requested anonymity because Moore's attorneys had not yet determined how to respond.
Michael Moore Faces U.S. Treasury Probe - washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/10/AR2007051000155.html?hpid=entnews)

I wonder though if he'll do a documentory about our prison system?

Have a good one!:s4:

[sickstrings84]

God forbid a man should go to Cuba without authorization.....what a horrible criminal...

[birdgirl73]

Yeah, they're only messing with him because he's been anti Bush-administration. That's absurd.

You know, obese or not, the guy has important information for people, left- or right-leaning, in that film. If you wouldn't dismiss me for being slender, don't dismiss him for being fat and don't dismiss the information he's providing just because you've disagreed with his previous films. I assume you'd prefer people not dismiss your your ideas on other matters simply because you're pro-cannabis, right? Same thing here with his weight and what this film discusses. This is an issue that crosses party lines, despite the fact that it'll be a bigger election issue for the Democrats. This affects you all more than some of you seem to realize. Try and keep an open mind.

[Matt the Funk]

I actually missed it...I hate to admit it but I watch oprah probably 3 days a week because it can be an interesting show sometimes. I was kinda bummed about missing it too...hopefully I can catch it as a re-run.

[Psycho4Bud]

Now birdgirl, you know I'm as open minded about these M. Moore as the next guy but fact is he broke the law. If we all just chose the laws we wanted to follow there would be chaos!! CHAOS I TELL YOU!! :D

When the day comes when a person can go to the local cigar shop and buy a Cuban......Then M.Moore can show his anti-american agenda; till then, lock up the fat boy.:thumbsup:

Have a good one!:s4:

[birdgirl73]

Like you're not breaking the law every day with your grow op!!! Nice try, there, buddy . . . .

They're going to need to come a few of my friends, too, if they come after Moore for going to Cuba. At least he had the legitimate excuse of reporting for his film. These people I know went, on a whim, by way of Canada, just to see if they could get away with it, which they did. If I didn't think I'd get caught or somehow endanger my career future or that of my husband, I'd do the same thing at my earliest opportunity. I'd bring you back some Cohibas, too!

[Psycho4Bud]

Like you're not breaking the law every day with your grow op!!! Nice try, there, buddy . . . .

How true BUT likewise I spent my time in jail, paid the fines, did over 200 hours of community service because I was CAUGHT! He admitted his guilt with the film....are you saying that actors and such have certain privs that I don't?

Just keepin' it real!:D

Have a good one!:s4:

[birdgirl73]

OK, then let's keep it real. Remember, Moore was there working on a documentary film. That's reporting, whether you agree with the reports or not. Even editorial reporting that takes a side is still reporting, and a documentary film falls under the category of journalism, or PBS and other documentary filmmakers, even lightweight cable travel networks, wouldn't be able to go to Cuba and film what they film regularly about Cuba. (Guantanamo, incidentally, is an American possession, so he wasn't in alleged violation there, only in mainland Cuba.)

The records show that Moore clearly applied for the visa, and OFAC in retrospect is alleging "no determination was made." Yet Treasury is having to say they're only investigating "possible violations" of the travel embargo. If they had an actual violation, reporters would have the proof of a denied visa out front on Fox, among other places, so fast your head would spin. "Investigating possible violations" is precisely what government offices say when they're trying real hard to cause problems for someone but don't have anything solid to go on.

The reality is it looks a heck of a lot like an bureaucratic vendetta against someone who's been a thorn in the side of Washington, D.C. and the Bush administration for six years. Fred Thompson is milking this not-yet-news item for everything it's worth so he has a right-wing sound byte with which to kick-start his campaign.

[Psycho4Bud]

The reality is it looks a heck of a lot like an bureaucratic vendetta against someone who's been a thorn in the side of Washington, D.C. and the Bush administration for six years. Fred Thompson is milking this not-yet-news item for everything it's worth so he has a right-wing sound byte with which to kick-start his campaign.

Once again...keeping it real.........



"This office has no record that a specific license was issued authorizing you to engage in travel-related transactions involving Cuba," Dale Thompson, OFAC chief of general investigations and field operations, wrote in the letter to Moore.

IF he applied and it was still in limbo why should this CRIME hold a political boundry preventing Mr. Thompson from doing his job?


Moore's attorneys had not yet determined how to respond.

IF it were as easy as journalistic rights OR that he actually obtained permission then why would his lawyers be so slow to respond? Should be a pretty cut and dry response I'd think.:D

Have a good one!:s4:

[rebgirl420]

"The law demands and requires that a corporation like a health insurance company maximize the profits for the shareholders, and if they donâ??t do that, theyâ??re violating the law. â?¦ If they are required by law to make a profit, and the only way they can make a profit is by denying claims or cutting people off of their insurance or never taking them on in the first place, then thatâ??s not good for us."

LMAO! And what law is this again? I'd rather feed the health care system with thousands than his lieing fat ass the price of admission to the movie.

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

Yes sir, socialized health care may have a few good points but to me the bad points out weigh its soooo much. Thank you but I dont wanna have to wait weeks or months to get into my cancer checkups.

[birdgirl73]

Too many folks already have their minds made up about so-called "socialized" health care, when no one really knows what it would entail because we don't have any such system yet. When we do, it'll have to be implemented gradually.

Chances are here that for people who're already insured, it'll be very much like it is right now. As is the case in countries with fully socialized medicine, the wealthy and highest-earning types will still likely have better care and more options. That's not fair, but it's reality. If you don't have to wait for your checkups now, Reb, you can't automatically assume that because people in other countries have to wait that it'll be the same way here if our system changes. Here it'll have to be a combination public-private system, which isn't how it works in other countries.

The important thing--and this is the most important message from Moore's film, in my opinion--is that by implementing some sort of system to cover the health-care-less and woefully underinsured, we'll be doing something that benefits our country as a whole and not just a chosen few. It's shifting to a "we" mentality from an "I" mentality. It's like the idea upon which education access is based on in this country: everyone benefits from an educated society, not just the people who have kids. The same would be true of health care. And the benefits would extend worldwide in the case of health care for all.

[rebgirl420]

1. I have a reallllly bad gut feeling it will end up like those european countries. And why risk that? Its not like if shit goes down we say, "oops, didn't work", theyll just throw more and more money at it like they did with welfare

2. and the public education system is a wreck

3. and I hat the idea of a one world ANYTHING.

[Triple-P]

they could do alot...they could make a chevy that would last 50 years, they could make a cure for cancer, aids and all that good stuff...shit they could probably even make a rolling paper that burns perfectly everytime and never
canoes

politicans are fuckin roaches...and not the good kinda roach


wheres north americas equivelent to che and fidel???

[rebgirl420]

USA equivilent to Fidel? Just look at all the liberals :thumbsup:

[birdgirl73]

Well, don't go on your gut just yet on point 1. Nothing's even in the works yet. It'll no doubt have some negative aspects. But if you're informed, you know the negative aspects of our current medical system are myriad now. We who believe in cannabis need to be better aware of that than anyone else, particularly considering how hard Big Pharma, the profit-mongers that they are, have--and will continue to--fight the legalization of an immensely beneficial plant.

On 2, I didn't say anything about public education. I said education. And while our system has its faults, it's still better than nothing, and all education, public or private, benefits society as a whole. You'll be learning that as a future teacher. You also need to know there are plenty of very effective public school systems in this country. There are wrecks, certainly. There are wrecks in the highest-dollar private educational systems, too. But there are also successes. I don't know about you, but I'm the product of a successful public education. And I know a heck of a lot of other people who are, too, including nearly the entirety of my med school class.

On point 3, you and the other "nationalists" who haven't yet seen that this world is increasingly inextricably linked, whether you want to admit it or not, can hang onto the notion that keeping borders and ideas and geographies the way they've been previous decades and centuries is the way to continue. The business world has long since overcome that notion, or global business wouldn't be able to operate as successfully as it does. The fear of loss of identity with geographic area unifications is a foundless one. England and other European countries haven't lost their unique identities or laws with the EU. With more maturity, lots more travel, and further education, I suspect you'll start to see this. It's too early for you to be able to do that quite yet.

[rebgirl420]

1. i think its a damnded if you do and damnded if you don't.

2. Of course theres good points on both. And really, what we both know is that a good ammount of the time its the student who is the problem.

3. I'll never agree on that. I believe that a one world anything just leads to socialism. I want to be able to leave somehwere when the country begins to go down the tube. I like being an American. I dont want to a citizen of another country AT ALL. And so many other countries are becoming socialist messes. I want NO part of that.

[birdgirl73]

Rest assured, sweet Reb, you'll still be an American no matter what happens. So will I. No other country could handle us!! No other country would even want to try . . . .

I'm outta here. Everyone sleep tight.

[rebgirl420]

haha night birgirl

[medicinal]

they could do alot...they could make a chevy that would last 50 years, they could make a cure for cancer, aids and all that good stuff...shit they could probably even make a rolling paper that burns perfectly everytime and never
canoes

politicans are fuckin roaches...and not the good kinda roach


wheres north americas equivelent to che and fidel???

Michael Moore is about as close as you get. He may be fat, but he's got more fortitude in his little finger than most on this site or for that matter anywhere in this country. Michael Moore is a real American Hero. The reason the wingers make fun of him is they have no substance to their arguements.

[Psycho4Bud]

Michael Moore is about as close as you get. He may be fat, but he's got more fortitude in his little finger than most on this site or for that matter anywhere in this country. Michael Moore is a real American Hero. The reason the wingers make fun of him is they have no substance to their arguements.

Is there anyone else you feel is above the law of the land or does it just pertain to their political stance whether they are or not?

Have a good one!:s4:

[Triple-P]

USA equivilent to Fidel? Just look at all the liberals

i meant in the revolutionary change of regime kinda way

[mrdevious]

Is there anyone else you feel is above the law of the land or does it just pertain to their political stance whether they are or not?


Us cannabis smokers believe we should be "above the law" in the same respect. Just because something's law, doesn't make it right by default (as many people seem to believe). Charging someone for traveling to Cuba is just stupid, just like charging us for enjoying the herb is stupid. I think it's high time we stop attaching morality to arbitrary laws, I'm sure nobody's going to harm society by smoking a Cuban!


(I love that we have Cuban cigars here in Canada btw:jointsmile:)

[Psycho4Bud]

Us cannabis smokers believe we should be "above the law" in the same respect. Just because something's law, doesn't make it right by default (as many people seem to believe). Charging someone for traveling to Cuba is just stupid, just like charging us for enjoying the herb is stupid. I think it's high time we stop attaching morality to arbitrary laws, I'm sure nobody's going to harm society by smoking a Cuban!


(I love that we have Cuban cigars here in Canada btw:jointsmile:)

I got busted.....had to pay the fines and do the time. What makes his him any better? He openly admitted to breaking the law....bottom line.

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[Breukelen advocaat]

Breitbart.tv » Exclusive: Thompson Responds to Michael Moore Challenge (http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=611) (Video of Fred Thompson addressing Moore)
A mental institution for Michael Moore?
In a response to Michael Moore, former US Senator Fred Thompson called upon the film-maker to speak to Fidel Castro about the fate of fellow documentary film-maker Nicolas Guillen who was tortured in Castro's prisons.
According to Thompson, Guillen was imprisoned for an unflattering portrayal of Castro and the Cuban regime and then interned in a mental asylum where he was subjected to electro-shock therapy......Guillen Landrián was incarcerated for nearly a decade by Castro and released after abusive treatment in the Mazmorra mental institution in Cuba. He was briefly imprisoned again in the 1980s and eventually left to live in the US.
â??A mental institution, Michael. Might be something you ought to think aboutâ?�.

[sickstrings84]

Yes sir, socialized health care may have a few good points but to me the bad points out weigh its soooo much. Thank you but I dont wanna have to wait weeks or months to get into my cancer checkups.


How about getting cancer and having no insurance?? What would you suggest I do?? Die because you don't wanna wait a couple weeks for your appointment......Sounds like a well thought out plan. :wtf:

btw....Be careful you don't hit the payout limit on your insurance when you get cancer, it can happen a lot quicker than you might think. And good luck getting approved for a transplant should you ever need one.

I agree the system would need some revamping , but we have plenty of highly intelligent people in this country fully capable of devising a system that will work. Why just assume that the system would not work?? When it comes to important issues, I tend to shy away from following my gut instinct. That accomplishes nothing, I try to use my brain on issues that matter.

[mrdevious]

I got busted.....had to pay the fines and do the time. What makes him any better? He openly admitted to breaking the law....bottom line.



Nothing makes him better. But nothing made you deserving of your punishment either. Again, law and morality are not inseperable. Just because you suffered an injustice, doesn't mean has has to as well.


though honestly that's just related to this particular issue, overall I've become very disappointed in Michael Moore.

Have a good one.

[medicinal]

In Cuba, the best hospitals and health treatments are for the politicians, upper classes and tourists. The average Cuban citizen gets lousy health care.
I think you've just described US health care with the exception of the 60 million that are without any!

[delusionsofNORMALity]

where's north america's equivalent to che and fidel???
a sadistic coward and a corrupt despot? i think we can do without them, we come close enough to destruction with the fools that run the show now.

[higher4hockey]

Michael Moore is about as close as you get. He may be fat, but he's got more fortitude in his little finger than most on this site or for that matter anywhere in this country. Michael Moore is a real American Hero. The reason the wingers make fun of him is they have no substance to their arguements.

moore has no substance in any of his movies...

[Breukelen advocaat]

In Cuba, the best hospitals and health treatments are for the politicians, upper classes and tourists. The average Cuban citizen gets lousy health care.
I think you've just described US health care with the exception of the 60 million that are without any!

The answer is that Americans should be able to buy their own health insurance. The way to do this is to reduce taxes by lowering all the social & corporate welfare, no more foreign aid, and stop other wasteful spending of the taxpayers' money.

New York State has heath insurance available for everyone, based on income. Years ago, there were periods when I was uninsured and couldn't afford it. This would have helped me, but I don't think they had it yet.

Health insurance is very expensive, but if I needed it, I'd buy it myself.

[birdgirl73]

moore has no substance in any of his movies...
This shows how insubstantial your own understanding is. For one thing, they're not movies. They're documentaries. And they're actually quite substantial. If you ever watched one with an open mind and looked at all the topics it covers, you'd notice that. Even if you disagreed with it.

Which, of course, you would.

[birdgirl73]

The answer is that Americans should be able to buy their own health insurance. . . . . Health insurance is very expensive, but if I needed it, I'd buy it myself.
But 8 out of 10 Americans can't afford to do so. You might be able to, but most other folks cannot, even if they spent every dollar they had to pay for the insurance.

That's the point. Our health care system and its costs are completely out of control. And they're getting more and more that way with every passing year. As much as it sounds great to say get rid of welfare spending, eliminate needless waste of tax dollars, and abolish foreign aid, such changes wouldn't begin to tackle the real problem, which is what Moore is pointing out. Our for-profit health care system, with Big Insurance, Big Pharma, Big Hospital Corporations, and Big Organized Medicine running the show, is absurdly out of financial reach to the people who need it most, even the hard-working ones. All the tax cuts and conservation of federal money in the world isn't going to change a problem that exists within a privatized, big-business system.

[medicinal]

But 8 out of 10 Americans can't afford to do so. You might be able to, but most other folks cannot, even if they spent every dollar they had to pay for the insurance.

That's the point. Our health care system and its costs are completely out of control. And they're getting more and more that way with every passing year. As much as it sounds great to say get rid of welfare spending, eliminate needless waste of tax dollars, and abolish foreign aid, such changes wouldn't begin to tackle the real problem, which is what Moore is pointing out. Our for-profit health care system, with Big Insurance, Big Pharma, Big Hospital Corporations, and Big Organized Medicine running the show, is absurdly out of financial reach to the people who need it most, even the hard-working ones. All the tax cuts and conservation of federal money in the world isn't going to change a problem that exists within a privatized, big-business system.

can I get an amen!

[Breukelen advocaat]

Rudy Giuliani is in favor of people buying their own health insurance, with the help of "a major tax deduction" and health savings plans.
.
"What the Democrats suggested on this stage two nights ago was Socialized medicine.........The reality of it is that we need a free market......Free market principles are the only things that reduce cost and improve quality. Socialized medicine will ruin medicine in the United States". Rudolph Guiliani

Video
Giuliani 2008: Rudy Giuliani: Health Care (http://giuliani2008-blogger.blogspot.com/2007/06/rudy-giuliani-health-care.html)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rudy as Mayor of New York City:
â??Between 1993, when Giuliani took office, to 2001 when he left, murders dropped by an astonishing 66%. Rape went down by 45%, robbery by decreased 67%, and aggravated assault, larceny, and motor vehicle theft each decreased by at least 39%.â?�

[medicinal]

Rudy Giuliani is in favor of people buying their own health insurance, with the help of "a major tax deduction" and health savings plans.
.
"What the Democrats suggested on this stage two nights ago was Socialized medicine.........The reality of it is that we need a free market......Free market principles are the only things that reduce cost and improve quality. Socialized medicine will ruin medicine in the United States". Rudolph Guiliani

Video
Giuliani 2008: Rudy Giuliani: Health Care (http://giuliani2008-blogger.blogspot.com/2007/06/rudy-giuliani-health-care.html)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rudy as Mayor of New York City:
â??Between 1993, when Giuliani took office, to 2001 when he left, murders dropped by an astonishing 66%. Rape went down by 45%, robbery by decreased 67%, and aggravated assault, larceny, and motor vehicle theft each decreased by at least 39%.â?�

Rudi Judiani; cross dressing queen of right wing nazism. ,Past: policeman,arrrg, prosecutor,arrrrg, Mayor of NYC with mob affiliations, (never proven) arrrrg. When prompted by knowledgeable officials to move his headquarters after the first attempt on the twin towers, he ignored them and left them in them. Married three times, he has been accused by NYC city firefighters of buldozing remains at the TT site. NYC firefighters protest him at every political rally. If you want the real police state, he's your guy!!! He foams at the mouth with fear tactics, trying to scare citizens into more loss of their freedoms. A vote for Judiani is a Vote for Gulags in every city, with torture for every citizen. If you're that scaired, maybe living in a cave in Tora-Bora is the cure, they can't find Osama!

[birdgirl73]

Rudy Giuliani is in favor of people buying their own health insurance, with the help of "a major tax deduction" and health savings plans.
Of course he's in favor of that. He's a well-to-do, Republican man who will never have to worry where his health insurance comes from--or his tax cuts. He doesn't see any further than his own ability to pay or care about the millions of of people who cannot, and his never-interfere-in-big-business Republican mentality wouldn't dream of actually tackling the real problem of the profit-mongering in Big Insurance/Big Pharma/Big Medicine.


"What the Democrats suggested on this stage two nights ago was Socialized medicine.........The reality of it is that we need a free market......Free market principles are the only things that reduce cost and improve quality. Socialized medicine will ruin medicine in the United States". Rudolph Guiliani

This makes an awfully good sound byte. And folks who are intellectually incapable of listening past sound bytes will certainly buy that, which is what he's counting on. It's the same right-wing scare-tactic misinformation that's been bandied about for years by people who're invested in keeping the outlandish profit system the way it is now.

The threat that "socialized medicine" is going to ruin health care is more of the same. Making health care available and affordable to people in the other civilized countries of the world has done nothing to impair medical quality. Here in our country, we'll still have our state-of-the-art hospitals. We'll still have medical research and development. We'll still be graduating and training physicians and other professionals through the same medical schools and with the same stringent standards. We'll still have unbeaten pharmaceutical products and research. That's not going to change.

The truth is nothing even remotely socialized has yet been proposed, and we already know that the system we'll have to employ in this country will be a cooperative private-public system because it's going to have to use the existing medical infrastructure to a large extent. We can't possibly completely abolish medicine as we know and have enjoyed it because it's too intrinsic to our current economy. It's 16% of our GDP.

Right now, free market principles are precisely what have our health care costs spiraling further and further out of people's reach with each passing year. Those costs are currently rising nearly 10 percent per annum, and with each passing year, that percentage will grow higher and higher. The few of us who can still afford health insurance now may no longer be able to in just three or four more years if we continue on our current course.

Rudy needs to do lots more reading and lots less fear-mongering.

[higher4hockey]

birdgirl~yeah i called it a movie, yipeee....big deal. moore is full of shit and thats that.

[birdgirl73]

". . . is full of shit and thats that."
You're one of those people who needs to be real careful about throwing this phase around.

For obvious reasons.

[andruejaysin]

If our health care system is so great you might think the rest of the world would try something similar. They don't. The market has spoken.

[rebgirl420]

How about getting cancer and having no insurance?? What would you suggest I do?? Die because you don't wanna wait a couple weeks for your appointment......Sounds like a well thought out plan. :wtf:

btw....Be careful you don't hit the payout limit on your insurance when you get cancer, it can happen a lot quicker than you might think. And good luck getting approved for a transplant should you ever need one.

I agree the system would need some revamping , but we have plenty of highly intelligent people in this country fully capable of devising a system that will work. Why just assume that the system would not work?? When it comes to important issues, I tend to shy away from following my gut instinct. That accomplishes nothing, I try to use my brain on issues that matter.


I already have cancer and my parents worked 2 freakin' jobs to get the insurance to cover me. And why should I have to wait for my appointments? So everything is "fair"? Screw that!

[medicinal]

I already have cancer and my parents worked 2 freakin' jobs to get the insurance to cover me. And why should I have to wait for my appointments? So everything is "fair"? Screw that!

I don't want to sound harsh here, but you're not really dealing with reality. Did you say your "parents" worked 2 jobs to provide you with health insurance and in the same breath say it wouldn't be fair to wait two weeks for an appointment. My God, talk about a spoiled brat. Wait untill you have to fend for your self and find medical on your own. Now that you've had cancer. you'll probably have a hard time finding anyone to insure you. That may be when the light comes on, hey I'm un-insureable and my cancer may come back. Then maybe the chance of a national health care system that wouldn't discriminate against cancer survivors might seem viable, one paid for by taxes that are collected from everyone, you may have to wait a couple a weeks, but they won't be dumping you in the streets like they're doing in LA right now. BTW, I'm pretty sure your parents have to pay excessive amounts to insure you as a cancer survivor, and when you hit 21, it's bye-bye insurance. They'll drop you like a hot potato. Insurance companies study their risks, and when it is great, they don't insure, or if they do, it is priced out of reach. I wish you well and a long and successful life. My wifes lifelong friend has cancer and we've watched her waste away. We're taking her on a colorado mountain vacation next mo. Might be her last.

[mrdevious]

Doesn't seem fair to me that you should need 2 parents working 2 jobs just to pay the insurance. I really dont' get people's extremist views "it's gotta be all private, socialism is the devil!", or "It's gotta be all public, privitization is completely unjust and only favors the rich!". There are countries in Europe with a free public system, and a private system for those who can pay, and they rank top in the world. Is it really such a crazy idea to give people some choices? Those choices are why a socialized healthcare system is supportable and you can get in at a decent time, because the private sector is picking up the slack and getting the people who can pay out of the line that the poor are waiting in.

[Psycho4Bud]

I used to work for the Mayo system and I'll tell ya, before ANY of my tax dollars are put into that system they'd have to do some internal clean-up to controll costs first! $465 for a cloth swivel chair, no arms, that you see receptionists sit on. Over $2,500 for a leather chair for the doctors offices.

One of the directors in the facility I worked for got moved into a newly remodelled area.......NOT good enough! She had to have the carpet changed, different flo lights because she didn't care for the design of the ones that were just installed. Another area bought a $1000 coffee table for their lounge....they did a remodel of the area a month later and had no room for the table. Instead of throwing it out in the trash I convinced them to let me take it home in my car!

If these people spent money out their own budgets like they do on a daily basis they'd all be bankrupt!

Have a good one!:s4:

[mrdevious]

But when the private sector has to pay those exhorbitant costs themselves, prices for treatment will have to go up anyway to maintain the profit margin and still handle administrative costs. I can confidently say here in Canada we're not all going broke, and those below the poverty line don't have to pay any contributions to the medical system (with extremely low taxation for those still making very low wages).


The problem still remains, if you can't afford health insurance, or health insurance for an unexpectedly high-expense treatment, should you just be left to die? Or would it be more acceptable to be in debt for life so high you can never pay it off?

[Psycho4Bud]

The problem still remains, if you can't afford health insurance, or health insurance for an unexpectedly high-expense treatment, should you just be left to die? Or would it be more acceptable to be in debt for life so high you can never pay it off?

medicinal works on cars and I'm sure he'd agree that before you do a fancy paint job you get rid of the rust. The medical system has alot of rust to get sandblasted before we even think of trying to pretty it up.

Have a good one!:s4:

[medicinal]

medicinal works on cars and I'm sure he'd agree that before you do a fancy paint job you get rid of the rust. The medical system has alot of rust to get sandblasted before we even think of trying to pretty it up.

Have a good one!:s4:

Look, I never said the rich couldn't have private health care. My own Dr. decided to semi retire and gave all his HMO and Medicare patients the choice, either pay up 3,000 a person per year or find another DR. Obviously I had to leave and find another Dr., but his wealthy patients could enjoy his expertise. He was the most favorite Dr. I ever had, but facts is facts and I couldn't afford 3,000 bucks above and beyond what I'm already paying. The wealthy will have a class of medical that is better than most of the proletariate, but with a public system, every citizen would be covered. I also suggest a card, not unlike a credit card that seems to be hard to duplicate, for every citizen so the illegals would have to go back to Mexico for treatment, and once back there we could close the gate,~LOL~

[GotWake88]

Now birdgirl, you know I'm as open minded about these M. Moore as the next guy but fact is he broke the law. If we all just chose the laws we wanted to follow there would be chaos!! CHAOS I TELL YOU!! :D



"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law', because law is often but the tyrantâ??s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."- Thomas Jefferson

[PharmaCan]

First of all, it's not against the law to travel to Cuba, it's only against the law to spend U.S. money there. There are many exceptions to the embargo and legitimate media/journalism is one of them. The Constitution says we have Freedom of Press. There is no way for politicians with their heads up their asses to change that.

As far as health care is concerned - health care is a right in any civilized society. (I wonder how much health care we could provide if the "War on Drugs" funds were diverted to heath clinics instead?) It is obscene and immoral that health insurance companies are allowed to operate. There should be one or two totally non-profit corps collecting insurance premiums and paying claims. Without the profit to the insurance companies, health insurance would be affordable to the majority of people. And that's not socialized medicine, it's just common sense.

Pharmacuetical Companies should be told one thing: "If you want to do business in the USA, then you charge US the same prices you charge in other countries."

[andruejaysin]

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law', because law is often but the tyrantâ??s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."- Thomas JeffersonMind if I steal that quote for my signature?

[andruejaysin]

:thumbsup:I guess not.

[higher4hockey]

You're one of those people who needs to be real careful about throwing this phase around.

For obvious reasons.

im not going to insult you for thinking what you think. i'd appreciate it if you'd show me the same respect.

[rebgirl420]

I don't want to sound harsh here, but you're not really dealing with reality. Did you say your "parents" worked 2 jobs to provide you with health insurance and in the same breath say it wouldn't be fair to wait two weeks for an appointment. My God, talk about a spoiled brat. Wait untill you have to fend for your self and find medical on your own. Now that you've had cancer. you'll probably have a hard time finding anyone to insure you. That may be when the light comes on, hey I'm un-insureable and my cancer may come back. Then maybe the chance of a national health care system that wouldn't discriminate against cancer survivors might seem viable, one paid for by taxes that are collected from everyone, you may have to wait a couple a weeks, but they won't be dumping you in the streets like they're doing in LA right now. BTW, I'm pretty sure your parents have to pay excessive amounts to insure you as a cancer survivor, and when you hit 21, it's bye-bye insurance. They'll drop you like a hot potato. Insurance companies study their risks, and when it is great, they don't insure, or if they do, it is priced out of reach. I wish you well and a long and successful life. My wifes lifelong friend has cancer and we've watched her waste away. We're taking her on a colorado mountain vacation next mo. Might be her last.

I am anything but a spoiled brat and my job covers me and when I get married in 2 years John's will cover me too. My parents haven't covered me for a while now. And my insurance company pays for all my tests and my meds. Ive never paid for a damn thing!

[andruejaysin]

when I get married in 2 years John's will cover me too. Ive never paid for a damn thing! Nope, not a spoiled brat at all. No wonder your fiancee wants a long engagement.

[mrdevious]

Nope, not a spoiled brat at all. No wonder your fiancee wants a long engagement.

Dude, you don't know squat about her situation, lay off a bit.

[rebgirl420]

Nope, not a spoiled brat at all. No wonder your fiancee wants a long engagement.

WTF? Im the one who wants to wait for after college. Its just the responsible thing to do. Besides, you dont know ANY of the shit ive been through. You wouldn't know hard times if it bit you in your ass.

[Triple-P]

white people dont have hard times

no offence, just tellin the truth

[rebgirl420]

^ Are you serious?!

[Triple-P]

yes

[rebgirl420]

Thats insane to think that! Theres all kinds of white people with awful problems. Like disease and money problems. There are more white people in the U.S. AND Canada anyway! Just look at how many are drug addicts and are on welfare!

[Triple-P]

you must not know anything about the natives in the us and canada

[rebgirl420]

The natives? Like the native americans? B/c I dont doubt for a second that they have been through the worst shit. But you cant just say one race doesnt have any problems. EVERYONE has problems.

[mrdevious]

Suck my balls Triple-P. It's assholes like that keep racism alive in the world; there's always some group of people that are deemed acceptable to hate on just for their race. I don't give a shit if it's whitey or blacks or whatever, HUMANS suffer and that's just the nature of life. Making stupid-ass generalizations doesn't change the situations of individuals.

oh shit I'm somewhat genetically related to 200 year old slavers. Don't I owe you some money?

[Triple-P]

possibly

if you muthafuckas gave us more than 5 bucks on treaty day you wouldnt

[mrdevious]

possibly

if you muthafuckas gave us more than 5 bucks on treaty day you wouldnt

"Us" muthafuckas? Don't know who you mean man, I'm just some broke white guy with a fucked up cripple body, I'm not givin' money to anybody. Guilt by association is an illusion man, you can lump everybody into their race but when it comes right down to it, you and me got nothing to do all the slavery and poverty and injustice bullshit. Don't let color decide your place in the world. If you wanna focus on something, we're both Canadian so lets focus on that. One Canadian to another, all the best to ya'. Peace.

[Psycho4Bud]

This thread is CLOSED! Triple-T.....enjoy your accomodations at Club Gitmo for CC abusers.

With ALL the personal attacks in this thread people are lucky this is the only person on vacation. M. Moore just seems to bring out the hate in people.

Have a good one!:jointsmile: