loose change

[13t]

anyone ever seen this movie or heard of it? i think u can only watch it online...its about how they think 9/11 was a conspiracy run by the government.... my friend and i were havin a long arguement about it last night even though we both don't know shit about politics or care.... but this is the first time i've heard about this and i think its all bullshit...so what do u guys think

[Psycho4Bud]

anyone ever seen this movie or heard of it? i think u can only watch it online...its about how they think 9/11 was a conspiracy run by the government.... my friend and i were havin a long arguement about it last night even though we both don't know shit about politics or care.... but this is the first time i've heard about this and i think its all bullshit...so what do u guys think

Here's an easy way to look at it:
Bush:
Able to take down 3 buildings, pop a big ass hole in the Pentagon, hide hundreds of people that were "suppose" to be on the flights.

Clinton:
Busted for getting a B.J. in the Oval Office.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, chances are it's a duck.

Have a good one!:s4:

[pwn3dy0]

Our government is criminal and has been hijacked, and yes they did orchestrate 9/11. I am not even going to debate 9/11 itself. It is so obvious it is an inside job it isn't even funny. Buildings don't collapse at freefall speed from small fires (building 7). And Osama bin laden did not warn willie brown not to fly. That was Condi Rice.


Anyway, Let's see here. Apparently we have millions of radical muslims that want to kill us, and take our freedom. We need the patriot act, military commisssions act, etc.. to save us from these mysterious shadowy figures.

Meanwhile we have total open borders, so any "terrorist" can just walk across the border and they are in the country. On top of that, the illegal immigrants are literally destroying the country, and economy. Also, they are anti-american, burning american flags etc. If there was a REAL threat the first thing a legit government would do is close the borders.

I think the american people are waking up to what is CLEARLY going on. In short, our government has been hijacked, all of our mainstream canidates are bought and paid for by the bankers/globalist. They are using us to do their dirty work around the world, and at the same time bankrupting us/destroying the middle class, so they are dependent on government - flooding the country with 3rd world population, pushing the carbon tax, jacking up the price of oil etc..


My advice to you. Watch Aaron Russo's freedom to fascism, and terrorstorm both free on google video.

[zino11]

ive seen loose change volume two is that what your referrin to awseome movie brings you to think different about certain things

[PharmaCan]

Our government is criminal and has been hijacked, and yes they did orchestrate 9/11. I am not even going to debate 9/11 itself. It is so obvious it is an inside job it isn't even funny. Buildings don't collapse at freefall speed from small fires (building 7). And Osama bin laden did not warn willie brown not to fly. That was Condi Rice.


Anyway, Let's see here. Apparently we have millions of radical muslims that want to kill us, and take our freedom. We need the patriot act, military commisssions act, etc.. to save us from these mysterious shadowy figures.

Meanwhile we have total open borders, so any "terrorist" can just walk across the border and they are in the country. On top of that, the illegal immigrants are literally destroying the country, and economy. Also, they are anti-american, burning american flags etc. If there was a REAL threat the first thing a legit government would do is close the borders.

I think the american people are waking up to what is CLEARLY going on. In short, our government has been hijacked, all of our mainstream canidates are bought and paid for by the bankers/globalist. They are using us to do their dirty work around the world, and at the same time bankrupting us/destroying the middle class, so they are dependent on government - flooding the country with 3rd world population, pushing the carbon tax, jacking up the price of oil etc..


My advice to you. Watch Aaron Russo's freedom to fascism, and terrorstorm both free on google video.

What he said.

Just watch the movies with an open mind and draw your own conclusions.

It defies logic that Bush, or anyone else in the government, is afraid of terrorists yet leaves our southern border completely unprotected so that anyone who wants can just stroll into this country.

Give me a fucking break!!!

[khronik]

Pfft. The movie is baloney. Did anyone see the south park episode where they pariodied it? That was pretty sweet though, and the moral was just about right on.

The truth is, the guys in the white house are a bunch of idiots who can't even keep a CIA agent's identity. They'd never be able to orchestrate something this complicated. The most that can be said in agreement with this movie is that they probably weren't worried about terrorists attacking the US. Maybe they figured that if the US was attacked, they could use that as an excuse to go to war, but that's as far as I'm willing to go.

[khronik]

What he said.

Just watch the movies with an open mind and draw your own conclusions.
The movies take tons of stuff out of context and tries to make patterns out of meaningless noise. There are multiple sites that go over that movie and list all the omissions and misinformation.


It defies logic that Bush, or anyone else in the government, is afraid of terrorists yet leaves our southern border completely unprotected so that anyone who wants can just stroll into this country.

Give me a fucking break!!!
Since when has Bush NOT defied logic? What a fucking idiot. But it's not like we can just put a huge wall up around our country and not let anyone in. That'd do way more harm than good, and besides, most of the people that are trying to attack us are separated from us by an ocean or two.

[420marijuana420]

It make you think, but, come on, 9/11 was an inside job? Are you trying to tell me that the government was able to keep these thousands of people from leaking it and pull off one of the worst attacks in American history but that same administration couldn't keep this kid from letting the video go mainstream? If this kid was a real danger we wouldn't even know who he was.

[PharmaCan]

Has anyone here ever seen a real live commercial airliner crash? The aircraft does not just disintegrate and disappear. Bodies and debris are everywhere, even when the plane does a nose dive straight into the ground.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how you can fit a 112' wide airplane thru a 15' hole.

As far as securing our borders goes - we can and we should.

[khronik]

The airplane's wings broke off before making that hole, obviously. Anyway, here's a page that explains a lot of why that video is nonsense:

Loose Change 2nd Edition Viewer Guide (http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html)

If we tighten border security too much, that hinders international trade. Al-Queida's main goal when attacking the World TRADE Center was screwing with international trade, not killing Americans. Anyway, it hardly seems right to further the goals of Al-Queida in order to protect the US from terrorism. Besides, most people that are proponents of border security have ulterior motives (ie, they don't like mexicans coming into the US) that have nothing to do with terrorism.

[PharmaCan]

The airplane's wings broke off before making that hole, obviously. Anyway, here's a page that explains a lot of why that video is nonsense:

Loose Change 2nd Edition Viewer Guide (http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html)

If we tighten border security too much, that hinders international trade. Al-Queida's main goal when attacking the World TRADE Center was screwing with international trade, not killing Americans. Anyway, it hardly seems right to further the goals of Al-Queida in order to protect the US from terrorism. Besides, most people that are proponents of border security have ulterior motives (ie, they don't like mexicans coming into the US) that have nothing to do with terrorism.

Then where are the wings - they are nowhere to be seen in the photos or videos taken immediately after the crash.

There is no ulterior motive in wanting to protect our country from an invasion of third-world trash. If I wanted to live in Mexico, I would move there. Mexico and Mexicans are invading our country and trying to turn it into another third-world latin american shit-hole. If you like Mexicans so fucking much, go live in Mexico. But secure our borders and keep that filthy trash on their own side.

And terrorists are entering our country across the Southern border. This is proven fact.

[khronik]

Then where are the wings - they are nowhere to be seen in the photos or videos taken immediately after the crash.
They were in many pieces, wedged inside the pentagon on the first floor. The photos in the loose change video have smoke and fire-retardant foam obscuring the part where the wings hit. Anyway, you can see the damage and the trajectory more clearly in this picture (http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/loose_change/docs/floorplan_757traj.png) than in the picture in the loose change video.


There is no ulterior motive in wanting to protect our country from an invasion of third-world trash. If I wanted to live in Mexico, I would move there. Mexico and Mexicans are invading our country and trying to turn it into another third-world latin american shit-hole. If you like Mexicans so fucking much, go live in Mexico. But secure our borders and keep that filthy trash on their own side.
Well, at least we've established that the main reason you're concerned with border security has little to do with terrorism. Bush doesn't care about mexicans coming to the US because they help our economy. Illegal immigrants pay taxes, but don't get any benefits, and they'll work for very little. As is the case with most republicans, he cares more about businesses than individuals. Anyway, our country has had plenty of waves of "trash" from ireland, poland, china, italy, eastern europe, etc, and they've all pretty much assimilated into our society now. I imagine it'll be the same for mexicans.


And terrorists are entering our country across the Southern border. This is proven fact.
Do you have any details? I know terrorists have tried to come through canada via the UK, but I don't recall anything about terrorists coming through mexico.

[deftdrummer]

One person mentioned that you'd have to be insane to think the government orchestrated the whole 9/11 events simply because they can't keep a CIA agent's name secret yade yade. Chew on this for a sec: what makes you so sure 1,000's or even hundreds of people were involved with this? The less people that know the better. Obviously an attack of this scale would need as few people as possible. It could have been pulled off with as little as 10 or less people knowing the real truth inside inner circles. In fact, it is not even likely Bush knew about it since the president has historically been merely a puppet.

If you think it is so far fetched read this snipped from wikipedia about the reichstag fire during Hitler's rise to power:

"Having become Chancellor, Hitler foiled all attempts to gain a majority in parliament and on that basis persuaded President Hindenburg to dissolve the Reichstag again. Elections were scheduled for early March, but on February 27, 1933, the Reichstag building was set on fire.[27] Since a Dutch independent communist was found in the building, the fire was blamed on a Communist plot to which the government reacted with the Reichstag Fire Decree of February 28, which suspended basic rights, including habeas corpus. Under the provisions of this decree, the German Communist Party and other groups were suppressed, and communist functionaries and deputies were arrested, put to flight, or murdered.

Campaigning continued, with the Nazis making use of paramilitary violence, anti-Communist hysteria, and the government's resources for propaganda. On election day, March 6, the NSDAP increased its result to 43.9% of the vote, remaining the largest party, but its victory was marred by its failure to secure an absolute majority, necessitating maintaining a coalition with the DNVP."


The global police state is upon us my friends.

[khronik]

You have to admit, there is a lot more freedom of information in the US than in Nazi Germany. Anyway, it surprises me that anyone would believe a video with heaps and heaps of proven misinformation, rather than the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I will give you, the Bush administration very well may have ignored CIA intelligence regarding a terrorist strike, figuring that a terrorist strike might work to his advantage if it did happen. But that's a long way from saying the government planned the whole thing out.

[PharmaCan]

T

Well, at least we've established that the main reason you're concerned with border security has little to do with terrorism. Bush doesn't care about mexicans coming to the US because they help our economy. Illegal immigrants pay taxes, but don't get any benefits, and they'll work for very little. As is the case with most republicans, he cares more about businesses than individuals. Anyway, our country has had plenty of waves of "trash" from ireland, poland, china, italy, eastern europe, etc, and they've all pretty much assimilated into our society now. I imagine it'll be the same for mexicans.


These statements are sooo naive. The third-world trash from south of our border has no intention of assimilating into American society and they have stated as much. If you have never heard of Reconquista or Aztlan, you need to have your eyes opened. This is not immigration, it is an invasion! And the stated purpose is to turn the American Southwest in an Hispanic territory.

Illegal immigrants are a tremendous burden on American taxpayers - i.e. American citizens and legal immigrants. They pay little or nothing in taxes and collect immense amounts in benefits. The Heritage Foundation has calulated that the cost of the amnesty currently being considered in the Senate will be 2.4 Trillion dollars over 20 years - NET COST TO AMERICAN TAXPAYERS.

Get your facts straight before you make statements like this 'cause right now all you are doing is repeating liberal propaganda for which you have neither substantiation nor basis in fact.

[PharmaCan]

You have to admit, there is a lot more freedom of information in the US than in Nazi Germany. Anyway, it surprises me that anyone would believe a video with heaps and heaps of proven misinformation, rather than the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I will give you, the Bush administration very well may have ignored CIA intelligence regarding a terrorist strike, figuring that a terrorist strike might work to his advantage if it did happen. But that's a long way from saying the government planned the whole thing out.

How many pilots and Boeing engineers need to say that a 737 (or whatever it was) cannot be flown in the manner it would have had to be flown to impact the pentagon before you believe that the aircraft cannot be flown that way?

Provide photoevidence that it was a boeing aircraft that strck the pentagon. Not hyperbole, EVIDENCE! Even one or two photos showing pieces of the aircraft outside the pentagon will do. (The wings would have sheared off and remained outside the building if the official story were true.)

[khronik]

These statements are sooo naive. The third-world trash from south of our border has no intention of assimilating into American society and they have stated as much. If you have never heard of Reconquista or Aztlan, you need to have your eyes opened. This is not immigration, it is an invasion! And the stated purpose is to turn the American Southwest in an Hispanic territory.

Illegal immigrants are a tremendous burden on American taxpayers - i.e. American citizens and legal immigrants. They pay little or nothing in taxes and collect immense amounts in benefits. The Heritage Foundation has calulated that the cost of the amnesty currently being considered in the Senate will be 2.4 Trillion dollars over 20 years - NET COST TO AMERICAN TAXPAYERS.

Get your facts straight before you make statements like this 'cause right now all you are doing is repeating liberal propaganda for which you have neither substantiation nor basis in fact.
Heh, well I guess you're right about the cost of illegal immigration, although to be fair, the cost is generally associated with their US-born children, and not the immigrants themselves. To be fair though, I was spouting conservative (libertarian) propaganda, not liberal propaganda. :thumbsup:

Anyway, saying those groups you mentioned represent all illegal immigrants is like saying groups like NAMBLA represent all gays. Most immigrants, both illegal and legal, are just concerned with providing for their families.


How many pilots and Boeing engineers need to say that a 737 (or whatever it was) cannot be flown in the manner it would have had to be flown to impact the pentagon before you believe that the aircraft cannot be flown that way?


"[Flight 77] could not possibly have flown at those speeds which they said it did without going into a high speed stall."
...
"The airplane won't go that fast when you start pulling those high G maneuvers. That plane would have fallen out of the sky..."
-Russ Wittenburg, commercial and Air Force Pilot who flew two of the planes used on 9/11, WingTV

Russ Wittenburg did not fly two of the planes used on 9/11, he flew Boeing 757s and 767s -- two of the types of planes used on 9/11. Wittenburg may be correct that flying a 757 at 532 mph at low altitude -- the approach speed given in FEMA's Pentagon Building Performance Report -- would precipitate a high-speed stall. However, that doesn't support Loose Change's conclusion that the attack plane was not a 757. Perhaps it was flying at only 400 mph. At that speed, it would only have been pulling about 0.57 Gs -- well under the performance ratings of a 757.


"The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought ... all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane"
-Danielle O'Brien, ATC at Dulles International Airport ABCNews (9/14/01)
This is misleading because it omits context. In the ABCNews article, O'Brien goes on to say "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe," making it clear that the air traffic controllers' opinion was based on the way the plane was being flown. The implication that the maneuvers were beyond the capabilities of a 757 is false.

I was going to post some more quotes from this debunking site, but maybe it'd be easier to read it yourself. (http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/loose_change/pentagon.html)


Provide photoevidence that it was a boeing aircraft that strck the pentagon. Not hyperbole, EVIDENCE! Even one or two photos showing pieces of the aircraft outside the pentagon will do. (The wings would have sheared off and remained outside the building if the official story were true.)
The wings were pulled with the plane, and folded back some, kind of like what would happen if you tried to push an open umbrella tip first into a hole. The wings are connected very strongly to the body, after all they have to hold it up, so they wouldn't just shear off like you said. I worked as an engineer for Honeywell, which makes a lot of aviation subsystems, so just so you know I'm not pulling this out of my ass.

[PharmaCan]

Well, KhroniK, neither of us is going to change the other's mind. Just to be clear, I'm not claiming to know what happened on 9/11. However, there are so many unanswered questions that the official explanation just isn't believable.

I remember sitting in front of my TV on 9/11 and watching the twin towers collapse and wondering what had brought them down because it was obvious that it wasn't the aircraft or the fires.

Most people don't know that jet fuel is just kerosene. They think it's some kind of super exotic fuel. If people were told from the start that the towers were doused with kerosene and lit on fire and that made them collapse, the whole country would have collectively said, "Yeah, right." because it is just so unbelievable. But "jet fuel" oooohhhh - that must be really powerful stuff.

[PharmaCan]

...and I can see why P4B has to rule this area with an iron fist. You get into these kinda discussions and you just wanna scream, "Well you stupid SOB yada yada yada" - and I'm sure the person on the other end of the conversation is thinking the exact same thing. LOL

Live long and prosper

PC :pimp:

[khronik]

Heh, alright, I can't stay here too long, I told my girlfriend I'd be over tonight, but I just wanted to touch on the kerosene deal.

First, there was a lot of the stuff, and it was burning inside the building. Second, although it takes a lot more heat to melt steel than kerosene can provide, if you heat steel to the temperatures they calculate it approached, it loses a lot of its strength. If just a few key beams yield, the weight from the floor above it causes it to collapse, pretty much like what happened on all the videos of the towers collapsing.

If there were bombs, the towers would have collapsed right after the explosions, but the kerosene had to burn for a while before the towers collapsed.

[deftdrummer]

I work with a 50 something old lady from Whales that has lived in the US for 15 years and is still denied her green card, try telling me that's justified when the Mexicans can come here and mooch off our social security and everything else. The Mexicans are solely the reason the social security fund is expected to run dry by 2019. We've been paying into it our whole natural working lives, but may not even see one penny of it. Try telling me thats fair.

Apparently the "land of opportunity" means an opportunity to work for a few years without paying taxes, (or very little) and then bring you're whole family over to do the same. Ya, the land of opportunity all right who wouldn't exploit that?

for the record, I am not racist unlike a lot of other people posting but this is what is going on right now in the land of the free.

[PharmaCan]

Drummer - Race has nothing to do with the illegal immigration issue. In any event, what race is a criminal illegal alien?

[khronik]

I work with a 50 something old lady from Whales that has lived in the US for 15 years and is still denied her green card, try telling me that's justified when the Mexicans can come here and mooch off our social security and everything else. The Mexicans are solely the reason the social security fund is expected to run dry by 2019. We've been paying into it our whole natural working lives, but may not even see one penny of it. Try telling me thats fair.
The main reason social security is slated to run dry is that baby boomers are retiring. That has nothing to do with mexicans, and anyway, illegal aliens cannot collect benefits, ever, until they become legal. However, if they have children while in the US, their children are US citizens who then CAN collect benefits, and this is where the cost comes from. Anyway, illegal immigration only costs the federal government about 10 billion dollars a year, compared to the war in Iraq, which is up to what? a half a trillion by now? They do help the economy too, although I don't have the exact figures on that.


Apparently the "land of opportunity" means an opportunity to work for a few years without paying taxes, (or very little) and then bring you're whole family over to do the same. Ya, the land of opportunity all right who wouldn't exploit that?

for the record, I am not racist unlike a lot of other people posting but this is what is going on right now in the land of the free.
It's not that one-sided, but I will admit there is a problem.

[PharmaCan]

Illegal aliens cost the state of California alone in excess of $10 Billion per year.

And, by the way, their children are not U.S. citizens. They like to think they are, but that's not what the constitution says. Treating anchor brats like citizens is a beaurocratic snafu, but one which will soon be rectified.

In any event, The very first act these invaders commit when they illegaly enter America is a crime. Their crimes continue while they acquire fake identity documents, use false names, drive with neither license nor insurance. These people have no respect for our laws and some people, like you, seem to think that it's a good idea to allow tens of millions of people who have no respect for our laws into this country. That's just plain ignorant. Do you think you will change the stripes on the tiger by waving an amnesty wand?

[The Green Reaper]

I think this is closer to the truth. At least I hope.


You have to admit, there is a lot more freedom of information in the US than in Nazi Germany. Anyway, it surprises me that anyone would believe a video with heaps and heaps of proven misinformation, rather than the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I will give you, the Bush administration very well may have ignored CIA intelligence regarding a terrorist strike, figuring that a terrorist strike might work to his advantage if it did happen. But that's a long way from saying the government planned the whole thing out.

[MrNiceGuy420]

Google Video result for http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1921357139285191482 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1921357139285191482&q=9-11+mysteries&total=400&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1)

[Fissle]

Our government is criminal and has been hijacked, and yes they did orchestrate 9/11. I am not even going to debate 9/11 itself. It is so obvious it is an inside job it isn't even funny. Buildings don't collapse at freefall speed from small fires

you are an idiot. the reason that these videos succeed is because people like you who are ignorent believe them. the planes hit the world trade center at over 500 MPH. The blast blew the fireproofing off the steel. 2000 gallons of jet fuel ignited. inside the inferno, the temperatures were over 2000 F, slowly bending the steel. eventually the outer coloms of the world trade center could not support the bending steel and they collaped, one floor crashed on another, crashed onto another, and etc.

with EVERY situation there will be a conspiracy. Ever see farenheit 911? well watch farenhype 911. it proves that michael moore altered what ppl said.

undecided voters are the dumbest people on the planet. you need to break down every issue until it is spelled out. They draw stupid conclusions, and THEY are what is wrong with our countrys voting system.

[Breukelen advocaat]

you are an idiot. the reason that these videos succeed is because people like you who are ignorent believe them. the planes hit the world trade center at over 500 MPH. The blast blew the fireproofing off the steel. 2000 gallons of jet fuel ignited. inside the inferno, the temperatures were over 2000 F, slowly bending the steel. eventually the outer coloms of the world trade center could not support the bending steel and they collaped, one floor crashed on another, crashed onto another, and etc.

I worked in lower NYC for over 20 years, and was there on 9/11, a few blocks from the WTC. After the second plane hit, I headed home and met an architect on the subway. He told me that the buildings would collapse, straight down, because they were designed to react that way if the structures were severely compromised for any reason. Because of the heat, he had no doubt that they would collapse. When I got home and turned on the TV, exactly what he predicted happened.

[suhl]

i dont think everything on loose change is true, however, and this is how i feel about most conspiracies, just because parts of it are proven wrong don't write the entire thing off and call anyone who believes it an idiot. it makes some very legitimate points, and so that i think are a stretch and are wrong. from the evidence they have i dont think it is enough to say definitely what happened that day. if you say oh bin laden did it anyone who says otherwise is just a stupid foil hat nut, i think you are being very narrow minded. if you think bush did it i think you are just wrong. if you think the circumstances are very shady then i agree. i will say if you are totally convinced everything in loose change is true at least do some outside research before you go acting like an expert on it.