Which Growing Method to Use????

[PharmaCan]

I'm building a grow room in my garage. It will be 10' x 13' x 9' ceiling. This will be a sealed room, exclusively for flowering. Right now I'm thinking 4 - 1000w HPS in cool tubes for lighting.

I would like to have a continuous harvest, so I'm estimating that approx. 2/3 of the room will be for the big plants and 1/3 of the space for the young plants.

I'm growing MMJ in California, so the number of plants is problematic. It would be better for me to have fewer large plants than a whole bunch of smaller plants. However, the plant count is only problematic, not insurmountable, so I'm open to suggestions. I've seen a lot on these boards about SOG and SCROG and LST etc., but darn little about growing larger plants. It seems that most everyone is coming up against headroom limitations when they use many of these various methods, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

What about the lighting? Are 4- 1000's enough? Or should I put 4 - 1000's over the more mature plants and 2 - 400's over the young ones? (The plants will have been vegged elsewhere. The "young ones" will start as healthy plants in one gallon pots.)

I would really appreciate hearing from some of the experienced growers and getting some input about the factors I should weigh in making a decision about what growing method to use.

Help, please!!!!

[stickyinsalem]

4 1000s....wow...you better put an air conditioner in there....lol
but anyway.....im not much to know about which way to grow....but i would definitely split the room.....one for small and one for big.....and get a temp guage...cuz garages get hot anyway and you dont want to burn your plants and maybe even your house...lol

[TheGreenFog]

.....and get a temp guage...cuz garages get hot anyway and you dont want to burn your plants and maybe even your house...lol

lol...nah...no need for a thermomter. LMAO.



Hey, Pharmacan. First off...sounds like a wicked grow. Nice wattage there. Couple things to consider. First, have u thought about light-movers? Not sure if you are at all worried about electricity usage, but putting a couple thousand watts on light tracks can be good in larger areas where you would normaly have to use more lights. Also, it will help you control your temps better.

Obviously, I'm assuming you've seen Tranoble's SEALED ROOM 3lbs (http://boards.cannabis.com/growroom-setup/31194-sealed-room-3lbs-light.html) thread, right? That is a good place to start, but since you said you'd prefer fewer large plants, then his method is not exactly idea. But good place to start to get info on your sealed room. I'm sure you know that the temps will have to be run a bit higher than normal (90-95*F) and you'll be using CO2.

Have you done any research into KBS growing? Take a look at Zandor's podcast "The Grow Report." Episodes 25-28 are a four part series discussing KBS growing, which is basically growing HUGE, 2-3lb plants indoors. This is where you should be headed. You may not want to go THAT big, but somewhere in between. I download the podcasts from the Dopefiend Network (http://www.dopefiend.co.uk).

With the right amount of space and lights, you definitely don't have to do a scrog, and you can let those babies grow nice and large. Good luck. Be safe, man.


The Fog :rastasmoke:

[PharmaCan]

Sticky - Thanks for the comments.

Four 1000's does sound like a lot of lights in such a small space, but most of the experienced growers seem to not go over 5'x5' max per 1,000w lamp. I'm hoping some of the old pros will chime in here and add some input but this board has been really dead for about the last week. ...maybe they all harvest at the same time??????

The temperature where I live is well into the 100's during the summer months, so air conditioning is a must even before the heat from the lamps. I'll just build an a/c unit into the wall and control it with a thermostat. Building the room is the least of my worries, 'cuz I'm a construction kinda guy, and really the cobstruction cost isn't all that much compared to the equipment one has to buy.

My home has a three-car garage, as do all the other homes in my neighborhood. Many of the residents here have built offices, shops, etc. in part of their garage, almost exactly like I'm doing, so there will be nothing conspicous or unusual about what I'm doing. I was married when I bought this home and got divorced about a year later. My former wife, in her parting "fuck you", told a couple of her neighborhood girlfriends that I beat her and that I was once tried for child molestation. None of that is true, but truth seldoms stands in the way of good gossip. LOL After that, the neighbors around here, while remaining cordial, never did get really friendly... never hostile, just never really sure enough that they wanted their kids around my house - and I can't say I blame them because, when it comes to our children, "better safe than sorry" is the only way to go - and that actually suits me just fine because now no one around here knows anything at all about my business and I don't have any kids playing and snooping around. Bottom line I guess is that my major stealth requirement is to keep my mouth shut about what I'm doing.

My grow will be in strict compliance with the California Compassionate Care Act and will be 100% legal under California law. The grow will be small enough that I doubt it would attract any attention from the Feds. There's a trend in SoCal for big-time growers to rent houses in the 3,000 - 4,000 square foot size range and then fill the entire house with one or two thousand plants. and completely automated hydro systems. They've been taking down about one of these houses a month for the past several months. Interestingly, I haven't read of any arrests, only the houses get popped, not the growers. But the growers that have been identified, or named, have all been foreign nationals and there's around 8 million illegal aliens in California and there's such an evolved infrastructure for illegals to change identities that the growers will just disappear and re-emerge as someone else.

In one of the largest operations to be taken down, the main suspects were identified as a Chinese man name Wang and a Korean named Park. ROFLMAO There's about 100million Chinese named Wang; next to Kim, Park is the most common surname in Korea; and, 99% of Americans couldn't tell the difference between a Korean and a Chinese anyway. So good fucking luck sorting those two "suspects" out.

Enough of my rambling...

[PharmaCan]

lol...nah...no need for a thermomter. LMAO.



Hey, Pharmacan. First off...sounds like a wicked grow. Nice wattage there. Couple things to consider. First, have u thought about light-movers? Not sure if you are at all worried about electricity usage, but putting a couple thousand watts on light tracks can be good in larger areas where you would normaly have to use more lights. Also, it will help you control your temps better.

Obviously, I'm assuming you've seen Tranoble's SEALED ROOM 3lbs (http://boards.cannabis.com/growroom-setup/31194-sealed-room-3lbs-light.html) thread, right? That is a good place to start, but since you said you'd prefer fewer large plants, then his method is not exactly idea. But good place to start to get info on your sealed room. I'm sure you know that the temps will have to be run a bit higher than normal (90-95*F) and you'll be using CO2.

Have you done any research into KBS growing? Take a look at Zandor's podcast "The Grow Report." Episodes 25-28 are a four part series discussing KBS growing, which is basically growing HUGE, 2-3lb plants indoors. This is where you should be headed. You may not want to go THAT big, but somewhere in between. I download the podcasts from the Dopefiend Network (http://www.dopefiend.co.uk).


The Fog :rastasmoke:

Fog - Thanks for the advice. I did read Tranoble's 3lb. sealed room and got some real good ideas from that. But if I had 200 plants growing, I'd be dead from a stress-related heart attack in less than a month and never get to enjoy my bud, so what's the good in that? LOL

I will definitely check out the podcasts you recommended. Thanks for the links!

I totally don't know or understand why the temp "needs" to be 90 - 95. Is that just a preferable temp when using CO2? Please explain.

Looking at a/c's, the charts provided say that 7,000btu is adequate to cool a 150 sq.ft. room - I have 130 sq.ft. I'm going to install a 30,000btu a/c unit. I'm no a/c whiz, but I would think that 30,000btu in that small area should allow me to keep the room at about any temp I want. Why then would I want it up to 95???? (That's a real question, btw, not an argument.)

The photo below shows the girls I'm building the home for. They've been vegging from clones for 3 weeks in the photo. When these girls are big enough, I'll take cuttings from them for clones and that's what I'll grow. The girls are a Master - Bubba cross and they seem to be a studly plant. The temps in my grow box creep into the mid 80's towards the end of the day and the plants don't seem to mind at all.

Again, thanks for the advice!

[PharmaCan]

lol...nah...no need for a thermomter. LMAO.

Hey, Pharmacan. First off...sounds like a wicked grow. Nice wattage there. Couple things to consider. First, have u thought about light-movers? Not sure if you are at all worried about electricity usage, but putting a couple thousand watts on light tracks can be good in larger areas where you would normaly have to use more lights. Also, it will help you control your temps better.

The Fog :rastasmoke:

Fog - I forgot to respond about the light movers.

I have a three-car garage with a two-car door and a single-car door. The grow room will be directly behind the single-car door. While the ceiling height in the garage is 9'4", the garage door rails and opener extend down to 7'4". I don't want to take down the garage door hardware - actually, it's more like I can't take it down; the sectional garage door would collapse.. Growing around the rails and manipulating lights around the rails would not be difficult - installing light movers would, in effect, take two feet off my headroom.

[TheGreenFog]

Hey, Pharma. Your mothers look good. I've smoked Master Kush and it's awesome. I've also heard GREAT things about Bubba Kush, so you should be very pleased. I would love some good Kush right about now. :jointsmile:

Take a listen to those podcasts and it might give you an idea of what I'm talking about with KBS, but basically it would be right up your alley...small number of very large plants. Just right. :)

As far as CO2 goes, I am not educated enough as to WHY it happens, and I did a little searching to see if I could find some really good links, but what I do know is that it has been said MANY a time by those who use CO2 that the ideal temperature for running CO2 in a sealed room is well above that of a regular ventilated room.

This has something to do with the efficiency of the plant to uptake the CO2 at that temperature as opposed to a lower one.

Check around a little more, but I'm 99.9% sure that I'm right. ;) I think the ideal temp is between 90-95F. With 30k btu A/C you should be able to keep the room nice and crispy cool...but would you really want to is the question! (That is an actual question...lol) ;)

You could always consider ventilating the room and/or doing it some other way, but this is just what I've read on the subject. :) Let me know what you decide. The grow sounds cool. Looking forward to pics. :D


OH, just saw the response about the light movers. I dunno exactly how your space is set up, but I'm sure there could be some way for you to make them work. I understand the loss of headspace, but hey, if you can minimize electric usage and maximize yield while still keeping your goals in mind, it might be something to look into. Maybe sketch up a drawing of what the garage looks like with the door hardware, outlets, place for A/C, etc? That would be cool. I mean, I have a general idea of what you are talking about with a third car garage, but the specifics would help. :thumbsup:



The Fog :rastasmoke:

[PharmaCan]

Fog - One method I'ver seen almost all the pros agree upon for noobs is the KISS method. I'd kinda like to keep that in mind. There's so much to learn and so much to deal with, even with just a basic set-up.

I don't even know if I will use CO2 for the first couple of grows. If it's an absolute necessity, I will. If it's not absolutely necessary, I won't. This is one reason I want the extra cooling capacity in the room; so that I have the versatility to change and adapt.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I hope someone will correct me if I am, but my initial and main priority is to get the irrigation system system automated and to learn the intracasies(sp?) of watering and nutrition. I think my time is much better spent on learning the essentials then on dicking around with gadgetry. I can trick-out the room as time goes by. I just know me and I'm such a damn perfectionist I even drive myself crazy sometimes. I can only deal with learning about and perfecting a limited number new things at any one time - and learning just the basics of this hobby is involved.

I smoked some of the bud from the same mother my clones came from. It was killer!!!!

You're right about this forum being dead for the last couple of weeks. It's like all the pros just dropped off one at a time. I hope to hell they're all ok and just busy harvesting or something.

[PharmaCan]

Fog - Here's a pic of the space I'll be using and one of the door opener and hardware. I could get it out of the way. I'd just have to be really motivated to do so, and saving a few bucks on electricity just wouldn't do it for me. I have back issues and working overhead is very painful, so ...

I'm going to take all my intake air from the garage. The ehaust from the light coolers I'll just exhaust through the garage wall. The room exhaust I have to decide about. If it's cooled air I'm exhausting, I'd want to filter for odor and exhaust it into the garage to cool the environment surrounding the grow room.

Guess I need to read up on CO2 and make some decisions.

[herbaltivo]

I haven't rolled CO2 yet, but I'm planning on it, and I can confirm from many, many discussions, that CO2 is best absorbed by plants that are in an elevated temperature range, 90-95 F.

Think of the benefits too, you run your AC unit less = more $$ in your pocket instead of the utility co. and with CO2 you have the potential to produce more product in the end.

I'm not saying don't do the AC, you're gonna need it too in SoCal.

Good luck with your project!

p.s. I have 2 master kush that are about a week or two from flower. As soon as I get back from Vegas, I'm cloning them.

[TheGreenFog]

Damn, man. I typed some huge response yesterday...and somehow it got lost. Whatever. Anyway, I'll try to remember and summarize.

KISS...for small grows...and somewhat for larger grows. Have you flowered a smaller grow before? If it was be (being a perfectionist too), I'd want to get everything set up before starting, if possible instead of 'tricking out along the way.' Just IMO.

You don't have to use CO2, but you just have to consider how you willh ave to build your set up to use it or not...and/or change your set up when you add it.

Herbaltivo, saving money on A/C then speding some on CO2 system. Almost a wash...until you consider your increased yields. :D True.

Pharma, savings on electricity when using 2 lights on movers (instead of 4 lights) will be much more than you might expect. Over the long run...you will save on wattage from the lights and your room will be not so hot, therefore less $ spent on A/C. Just trying to take everything into consideration. Plus 4 lights cost more than 2. ;)

That garage looks so nice to grow in. You are sucking your intake air from where? Exhausting to where? How will you be exhausting cool air? Sorry if I missed something.


The Fog :rastasmoke:

[PharmaCan]

Damn, man. I typed some huge response yesterday...and somehow it got lost. Whatever. Anyway, I'll try to remember and summarize.

KISS...for small grows...and somewhat for larger grows. Have you flowered a smaller grow before? If it was be (being a perfectionist too), I'd want to get everything set up before starting, if possible instead of 'tricking out along the way.' Just IMO.

You don't have to use CO2, but you just have to consider how you willh ave to build your set up to use it or not...and/or change your set up when you add it.

Herbaltivo, saving money on A/C then speding some on CO2 system. Almost a wash...until you consider your increased yields. :D True.

Pharma, savings on electricity when using 2 lights on movers (instead of 4 lights) will be much more than you might expect. Over the long run...you will save on wattage from the lights and your room will be not so hot, therefore less $ spent on A/C. Just trying to take everything into consideration. Plus 4 lights cost more than 2. ;)

That garage looks so nice to grow in. You are sucking your intake air from where? Exhausting to where? How will you be exhausting cool air? Sorry if I missed something.


The Fog :rastasmoke:

Hey Fog!

"Cooler" is always comparative, Grasshopper... LOL

I live in a fucking desert, man! SoCal may look tropical, but that's all man-made. Except for the narrow coastal plain, this started out as hot, mean, scrub-brush desert. Temps will be in the 100's for months at a time. Temperatures in a closed garage can get well into the 110's, 120's by the afternoon. So, if the temperature in my growroom is 90 - 95 F, then my g/r exhaust will be around that same temperature, which is cooler than the surrounding garage.

Here's how I plan the ventillation and cooling system:

Fresh air intake into room - through window a/c unit mounted in wall. Unit will be sufficient in size to cool incoming air and maintain constant temperature. In fact, a/c units aren't terribly expensive. I'm leaning towards overkill on the a/c unit because then I can find a 240v unit and it will be much more economical to run.

Exhaust from grow room - active exhaust going directly into garage. IF I can filter all the odor from the air, the room exhaust will stay in the garage because it will help cool the garage in the summer months. If the smell gets too great, I have access, in the garage, to a vent that goes up and out the two-story roof and I can blow the air up and away from inquiring noses.

Light cooler intake - From garage. This will suck fresh, outside air into the garage.

Light cooler exhaust - Through garage wall to the outside.

The wall construction, if looking at a slice of the wall from outside to in will be: 5/8" drywall; 5/8" sheathing; 2x6 steel stud; R-30 insullation; 5/8" plywood; 1/2" greenboard; paint; poly-film (mylar-type stuff). Obviously the walls are built for not only strength and security, but are well insullated too. This will help with energy costs and climate control.

Light movers - They might be great, but... In my neck, C4, C5, C6 & C7 (those are all neck vertabra) are all fused together. When I say overhead work can be painful, I'm not exagerating. In addition to that, right now I have a DVT (blood clot)in my leg and I'm taking blood thinners just to be able to walk a very small amount. Now, I like to think I'm a tough old buzzard, but building this grow room with almost no blood circulation in one leg is gonna strain even this curmudgeon and the fewer trips I have to take up and down a ladder will be all the better for me. I truly love construction work and, if I were in good physical condition, just building this actual room would take about three days and complete the entire project in a week. As it is now, I'm going to have to have to hire people to do the heavy work at it will probably take me a month from start to finish - which is ok because that is right on schedule with my growing schedule.

And, in any event, I don't have an unlimited budget. I've pretty much decided to start with cool tube 1,000's. A lot of research has shown that 600w lamps with digital ballasts are the most efficient (cost per lumen) way to go. But then, of course, you need more lamps (at $425 per, cuz, of course, you gotta have the best reflector too). So right now it's a choice between $1,040 for four cool tube 1k's or $ $2,550 for six digital 600's

Temperature - it looks like you were right on about the higher temps for the CO2. I'll have to do some more research into CO2. In this climate, it would be nice to be able to operate in the 90's.

When I said "tricking out along the way", I meant in between subsequent grows. I have never grown before, so this a learning experience for me. Whatever method I decide on, whatever systems I have in place, they will be tested and working from the onset. I spent many years building houses and there's a simple proceedure to follow for any project like this, be it big or small: You start when you are ready - you work until you are done. So I may have to plod along, but everything will be in good working order when it's time to start.

Fog - thanks again for all your help!

[PharmaCan]

I haven't rolled CO2 yet, but I'm planning on it, and I can confirm from many, many discussions, that CO2 is best absorbed by plants that are in an elevated temperature range, 90-95 F.

Think of the benefits too, you run your AC unit less = more $$ in your pocket instead of the utility co. and with CO2 you have the potential to produce more product in the end.

I'm not saying don't do the AC, you're gonna need it too in SoCal.

Good luck with your project!

p.s. I have 2 master kush that are about a week or two from flower. As soon as I get back from Vegas, I'm cloning them.

herbaltivo - Thanks for the input!

All things taken into consideration, CO2 will probably be the way to go. If the cost is a wash, like Fog pointed out, and the yields are higher, that alone should be enough reason to use CO2. But also, in this climate, trying to maintain a 90 - 95 temp would be a lot less stressful on the g/r infrastructure, and me, than trying to maintain a 75 temp. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, if I'm using CO2, then I am re-circulating the g/r air most of the time, as opposed to continualy refreshing it; aren't I? Obviously it would be a lot cheaper to maintain a 90 - 95 temp than it would be to have to constantly cool hot intake air.

How often do you have to change air when you are using CO2?