How much further can you pull back?

[A Scanner Darkly]

First God was in the sky. We explored the sky and learned what was really up there.

Then God was in space, beyond the sky. We explored space and learned what was really out there.

Now God is in another dimension? Come one. When we're able to explore other dimensions, where will your God run to hide from science?

In other news, here's a fun video: YouTube - Rational Response Squad takes on Christians on ABC (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-rKiGJrcNw)

[couch-potato]

The sad truth is, if people want to find where god is they need to peer into the human mind...

Personally I'd rather find Waldo than god. Fucker has been missing for days now...

[slipknotpsycho]

not that i believe in god...

but i think the general consensus for this is just that god is above you.... whether it be in the sky, or in space, beyond the sky.... OR in another dimension he's still figuratively 'above you' since he's out of reach....

again i don't believe in god... just trying ot analyze your point....

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

when you have a complex concept of god, a collective of all thoughts, ideas, and mindsets, abd you try to explain that to people 2000 years ago, of COURSE they are going to take it the wrong way.


it implies god is everywhere, everything, but they think god is a being, an individual, a PERSON, so they immediately say god lives where you cant see him.


first it was sky, then space, now another dimension when the truth is, god is nothing more than the collective thought of everything that exists.



until science can observe thought, idea, mind, and consciousness, science is never going to find god.


god is nothing more than the ability to think.

nothing that cannot think CAN exist.


the mindset of a human, is a human being. the mindset of a rock, is a rock.


the mindset of god is everything and nothing and all anything in between.

[Oneironaut]

It's really funny all the excuses people come up with to still believe in God. Up until a couple centuries ago, this idea that he was a non-real being somehow not in our "plane of reality" was completely foreign. God was a literal man living above the firmament of the sky. If you went up there, you would find him. Of course, God is a fairy tale so we didn't find him we invented aviation and space travel (by means of science, which is infinitely more productive than religion), but the idea of God was still emotionally comforting to so many people that they transferred him into some invisible parallel dimension. Why is God hiding so intently from us if he loves us so much and wants us to believe in him? I can't think of a reason why he would be, and it's always fun to watch religionists squirm trying to explain it.

Sometimes people come up with absurd definitions like "God is love" or "God is consciousness". No, love is love and consciousness is consciousness. Love and consciousness did not create the universe. There is no sense praying to love or consciousness. There is nothing about love or consciousness which is supernatural. These things are not gods. They are emergent phenomena of complex nervous systems, and using the word "God" for them is just plain misleading.

[Antihero867]

My preception is that god is in a seprate Spritual demention. A demention that is here, but not seen to the human eye. I am starting to read the bible and when im done i am going to post my entire views on Christianty and the Bible. So this opponion might change.

[Polymirize]

Up until a couple centuries ago, this idea that he was a non-real being somehow not in our "plane of reality" was completely foreign. God was a literal man living above the firmament of the sky.

Wow. there's an obviously false blanket statement.

Look, there probably are some people whose beliefs are just as literal as you always take them to be. And those people are obviously less developed in the use of human reason, though it does seem to make you feel like a big man when you point that out...

For the most part though, there seem to be vast numbers of believers who in recognizing that god is outside of human comprehension, actually end up believing some cool things and functioning amazingly well for society.

There will always be something we don't know, something more to learn. There will always be something happening outside of that narrow spectrum of existence that you recognise as reality.

[slipknotpsycho]

when you have a complex concept of god, a collective of all thoughts, ideas, and mindsets, abd you try to explain that to people 2000 years ago, of COURSE they are going to take it the wrong way.


it implies god is everywhere, everything, but they think god is a being, an individual, a PERSON, so they immediately say god lives where you cant see him.


first it was sky, then space, now another dimension when the truth is, god is nothing more than the collective thought of everything that exists.



until science can observe thought, idea, mind, and consciousness, science is never going to find god.


god is nothing more than the ability to think.

nothing that cannot think CAN exist.


the mindset of a human, is a human being. the mindset of a rock, is a rock.


the mindset of god is everything and nothing and all anything in between.

dude, that sentence stumped both me and my wife (who both have a relatively good understading of english and being able to translate shit no one else coudl lol... )

[slipknotpsycho]

My preception is that god is in a seprate Spritual demention. A demention that is here, but not seen to the human eye. I am starting to read the bible and when im done i am going to post my entire views on Christianty and the Bible. So this opponion might change.

read it a few times.. i have... you read it the first time, it puts one image in your head.. you read it a second, you start to see more 'flaws' (not nessicarly anything negatory, just things that don't add up) a third+ time, and the whole thing just kinda makes you think...

i'm not telling you not to belive or something, but you definately can't make some summary just cuz you read it once.... just trust me.... it's almost like words jumped in there the repatitive times you read it, that weren't there the first... just take my word for it....

[rebgirl420]

First God was in the sky. We explored the sky and learned what was really up there.

Then God was in space, beyond the sky. We explored space and learned what was really out there.

Now God is in another dimension? Come one. When we're able to explore other dimensions, where will your God run to hide from science?

In other news, here's a fun video: YouTube - Rational Response Squad takes on Christians on ABC (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-rKiGJrcNw)

That rational squad thing is great, I have their logo all over my myspace haha

[delusionsofNORMALity]

....always considered to exist just beyond what we can see.

some gods have lived on mountain tops or under the seas. some gods have been invisible and others have purposely hidden themselves from their followers, but all gods have always been just out of reach. a rational man might be forced to conclude that such unseen creatures do not exist. a logical mind might come to the conclusion that it is more likely that the god concept is a primitive response to our fear of the unknown.


:beatdeadhorse:

[darth stoner]

For the most part though, there seem to be vast numbers of believers who in recognizing that god is outside of human comprehension, actually end up believing some cool things and functioning amazingly well for society.

That's where it got after being confronted with the fact that there is no evidence to support god. Look at intelligent design for instance, it's the extreme case that shows how far religious people go to keep their fantasy real. For some people, the last barrier of defense is saying "it's outside our comprehension" (thus killing any chance of keeping a logical conversation up -- see Denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial) ).



There will always be something we don't know, something more to learn. There will always be something happening outside of that narrow spectrum of existence that you recognise as reality.

Completely agree. But, how does that support the god myth ? We didn't know why the sun rises just a few centuries ago. Does that mean there was a guy pulling it up and down until we found out why ?

[afghooey]

Sometimes people come up with absurd definitions like "God is love" or "God is consciousness". No, love is love and consciousness is consciousness. Love and consciousness did not create the universe. There is no sense praying to love or consciousness. There is nothing about love or consciousness which is supernatural. These things are not gods. They are emergent phenomena of complex nervous systems, and using the word "God" for them is just plain misleading.

I find it rather absurd that you limit your definition of god to the 'supernatural', then argue that God doesn't exist because your definition says he/she/it doesn't.

And anyway, even Jesus knew that god wasn't up in the sky somewhere:
"If those who lead you say, "Behold!..the kingdom of god is in the skies," then the birds will precede you. If they say that it is in the sea, then the fish will precede you. Rather, it is within you, and it is outside you." (The Gospel of Thomas)

[darth stoner]

afghooey, now try to prove your point without refering back to the bible.

The big problem with doing that is that you're using a cyclical reference when you attempt to prove your point by quoting the bible.

You fail to realize that the bible contents holds no truth value to us.

As an example, imagine me saying Zeus is real and asking you how could you ever doubt it, and the single piece of evidence I'd give you to support my point of view is ancient greek mythology. You wouldn't be convinced, would you ? Yet, if I assumed the contents of their mythology to be true, then there would be no way you could possibly disprove me.

Nonbelievers do not need to prove anything, as there is not a single shred of evidence in support of the judeo-christian god (therefore, the "default" state is: there is no god). If you believe such an entity exists, then by all means prove it to us, without refering back to the bible and any of the literature there. And please don't try miracles.

[RamblerGambler]

The J man's influence on the world is undeniable, regardless of who his father was. He appears to have preached a message of tolerance that extends far beyond what we today know as offical church teaching. It's ashame the Catholic Church chose to limit the extent of his message, selecting the books they felt best illustrated their views and doing their best to destroy the rest.

Sometimes I wonder if Jesus would would view today's Bible in the same light as a Dan Brown novel, 5-10% truth and a LOT of filler. Needless to say, the "truth" would be his message of compasion.

[afghooey]

afghooey, now try to prove your point without refering back to the bible.

The big problem with doing that is that you're using a cyclical reference when you attempt to prove your point by quoting the bible.

You fail to realize that the bible contents holds no truth value to us.

As an example, imagine me saying Zeus is real and asking you how could you ever doubt it, and the single piece of evidence I'd give you to support my point of view is ancient greek mythology. You wouldn't be convinced, would you ? Yet, if I assumed the contents of their mythology to be true, then there would be no way you could possibly disprove me.

Nonbelievers do not need to prove anything, as there is not a single shred of evidence in support of the judeo-christian god (therefore, the "default" state is: there is no god). If you believe such an entity exists, then by all means prove it to us, without refering back to the bible and any of the literature there. And please don't try miracles.

I think you may have misinterpreted me here, I apologize if I wasn't clear enough.

Firstly, I wasn't trying to 'prove my point' by quoting the bible, I was merely using it as an illustration to my point. Secondly, though yes I was trying to make a point, I'm not out to prove anything to you.

Thirdly, my entire point in the first place was that you can't rely on anyone's definition of God except your own. That includes mine (which doesn't happen to be that of the classic judeo-christian god anyway).

[Oneironaut]

I find it rather absurd that you limit your definition of god to the 'supernatural', then argue that God doesn't exist because your definition says he/she/it doesn't.
Okay, fine. Give me a definition of God that isn't supernatural, and prove it exists, and give me a good reason to call it "God".

And anyway, even Jesus knew that god wasn't up in the sky somewhere:
"If those who lead you say, "Behold!..the kingdom of god is in the skies," then the birds will precede you. If they say that it is in the sea, then the fish will precede you. Rather, it is within you, and it is outside you." (The Gospel of Thomas)
The Jesus myth is loaded with allusions to the idea that God is "in the sky" somewhere. What the heck was that whole Ascension thing about then? Jesus taking a trip to the Moon to chill for 3 days?

I think Jesus means to say here that God's powers extend over everything, not just his heavenly realm.

[blunt roller]

why do people think that because u believe in god u dont believe in science.
and why do they think everyone that believes in god takes the bible literaly.
Atheist and non-believers are just as close minded as the person who thinks the bible are gods exact words

"There is nothing about love or consciousness which is supernatural"

actually consciousness is very super natural. tests have been done with random number generators(using 1's and 0's) and the results show that a conscious being can influence the ratio of 1's and 0's. other tests show that a conscious being can change the ph of pure water one whole unit. and by conscious beings i mean people who have achieved higher states of awareness. this is just a very small tip of the iceberg, i could sit here for months trying to explain it all.

if you want to find out more about this topic the movie and book "what the bleep do we know" is a very good start.

[afghooey]

Okay, fine. Give me a definition of God that isn't supernatural, and prove it exists, and give me a good reason to call it "God".

On one condtion. You have to give me a definition of beauty that isn't intangible, and then prove to me that something is beautiful using that definition.

Can you prove to me that beauty even exists in this world?


The Jesus myth is loaded with allusions to the idea that God is "in the sky" somewhere. What the heck was that whole Ascension thing about then? Jesus taking a trip to the Moon to chill for 3 days?

I think Jesus means to say here that God's powers extend over everything, not just his heavenly realm.

Interpret it how you like, but I think that the whole 'ascension' thing was probably just a holdover from outdated old-testament beliefs, many of which Jesus was obviously opposed to and actually spoke out against. But that's my opinion. :stoned:

[darth stoner]

why do people think that because u believe in god u dont believe in science.


Scientific method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Method#Elements_of_scientific_method)

Apply it to religion. Religion fails. Therefore, either you're delusional or you're in denial, or you don't believe in science. Don't do to science what you do with the bible (note: I'm using "you" generically", not "talking" or attacking you) -- cherrypick it to choose what you like and you don't like.

[darth stoner]

On one condtion. You have to give me a definition of beauty that isn't intangible, and then prove to me that something is beautiful using that definition.

Can you prove to me that beauty even exists in this world?


Beauty is a concept. Stop trying to play word games to justify your points, please.

[afghooey]

Beauty isn't just a concept, it's also an experience.

Likewise, you can look at god as a concept, or as an experience. But I can only explain to you my concept of god. The experience is something that no one can give to you.

[darth stoner]

By all means, do explain. You mentioned you don't believe in the judeo-christian god but you also mentioned jesus, I must admit I am a bit confused.

I think I understand where you're going, and even if I believe there's no god, I wouldn't deny that god (the concept) makes some people's life meaningful and believing there is a god makes them feel good and full of energy. Is this what you're attempting to explain ?

[afghooey]

That's not really what I meant, as that would imply that I'm saying that god's existence is limited only to a concept.

My point is that certain things (like beauty, as one of many examples) aren't tangible enough to where we can find an object and slap a label on it and say "There, that's beauty." Beauty isn't something a person discovers. One can see beauty in just about everything if one has the right mindset, because beauty is something that we create whenever we percieve something as beautiful. Just because we create beauty doesn't mean that it isn't real. Just because it's less tangible and can't be adapted to language doesn't mean that it's any less significant.

In the same way, when you experience divinity, it's not something that you can put down in words or explain to others, quite simply because it's something you have to participate in to understand. I could explain trying to ride a bicycle for hours, but you won't fully understand until you ride it yourself. Likewise, I could go on trying to explain God until I don't have a breath left in my body to do so, but until you experience divinity for yourself my words will be as empty to you as symbols with no meaning behind them.

[Divadish]

Each and every one of us are our own god ,the sights , sounds , smells everything we perceive and experience through conciousness is done so at an individual level .We are all in charge of our own destinies , sure society shapes the decisions we make and the paths we take , but everything (and i mean everything ) we say and do, are thought and acted upon personally.Of course our actions and words have a direct bearing on everything and everyone around us to a greater or lesser extent and these actions and words can alter the parameters within which freedom of thought , speech and movement can operate mmm i am quite stoned at the moment and am starting to lose track ,but what i am trying to say is that YOU are god in your own world no one else, you have the final say on your own existence how much more god like can one be . One more point, which is one that as puzzled me since i was very young is this , with the existence ( for want of better words ) of so many different religions ( some pre-dating christianity ) and followers of each of these religions believing theirs to be the one true god,does this not by definition cast immense doubt over the authenticity of all religious movements ?.Anyway i'm well stoned now and can't be arsed to roll another so it's bedybybootime ,i'll probably look at this tomorrow and think wtf was i on aboutl but as well known Irish atheist comedian used to say goodnight and may your god go with you lol

[darth stoner]

That's not really what I meant, as that would imply that I'm saying that god's existence is limited only to a concept.

My point is that certain things (like beauty, as one of many examples) aren't tangible enough to where we can find an object and slap a label on it and say "There, that's beauty." Beauty isn't something a person discovers. One can see beauty in just about everything if one has the right mindset, because beauty is something that we create whenever we percieve something as beautiful. Just because we create beauty doesn't mean that it isn't real. Just because it's less tangible and can't be adapted to language doesn't mean that it's any less significant.

In the same way, when you experience divinity, it's not something that you can put down in words or explain to others, quite simply because it's something you have to participate in to understand. I could explain trying to ride a bicycle for hours, but you won't fully understand until you ride it yourself. Likewise, I could go on trying to explain God until I don't have a breath left in my body to do so, but until you experience divinity for yourself my words will be as empty to you as symbols with no meaning behind them.

I can see your point, but it's just like motivating yourself to do something.. it's what you think about it that matters, and if you deeply believe in something, then your mind will trick you into viewing that as real. If you don't believe or have confidence in what you're doing, then the simple fact that you thought about it will change the outcome. This is a documented thing, and it's in part self deception, true believer syndrome, and wishful thinking.

That is why I don't deny that people can experience "divine" experiences, bursts of strength or motivation to do something after a prayer -- if you believe the outcome of a prayer to be positive, then it will very likely be (within the bounds of the reasonable, of course). For this very reason I don't deny that people can feel good about their religion, but if you think about it deeply, it's coming from your own mind.. and I know it might be hard to reach that deep, as for instance I couldn't see stuff that I can clearly see after I quit smoking (tobacco). I was in denial and throwing away things that I knew were relevant and labelling them irrelevant.

The thought process isn't perfect, and as you may know there are several known biases.. to get to the bottom of it you need to recognize our thinking isn't perfect and teach yourself to detect and correct your own thinking when you notice it happening.

If you clear your mind of all preconceptions you have of religion, and from a purely logical and reasonable point you think about the issue, you'll arrive at the only possible answer: god most likely doesn't exist (nobody can't say it doesn't exist for sure, purely for the same reason as we can't say the tooth fairy really doesn't exist, it's just highly unlikely she does..).

To what extend your mind will block out your thought process to prevent you from going into a fuse because of the radical change, I couldn't know. I have experienced it with cigarettes, but religion is something that is indocrinated in us from a very early age (I was religious until I was 12 or something, simply because my parents were catholics too and I didn't know any better), and it must be hard to shake off.

[afghooey]

If you clear your mind of all preconceptions you have of religion, and from a purely logical and reasonable point you think about the issue, you'll arrive at the only possible answer: god most likely doesn't exist (nobody can't say it doesn't exist for sure, purely for the same reason as we can't say the tooth fairy really doesn't exist, it's just highly unlikely she does..).


Actually, from a purely logical and reasonable point, I still see more evidence of god's existence than non-existence.

The thing is, what you might define as evidence completely depends on your definition of god. If I was to set out on the daunting task of trying to prove the judeo-christian god of the old testament real, I would be hard pressed to find reasonable evidence of his existence beyond some millenia-old scriptures.

The biggest piece of evidence that I can think of in support of the existence of God (at least, as relating to my personal understanding of God) is intelligence. Here is one thing that I don't need to prove to anyone; intelligence exists, and we ourselves are living, breathing and thinking proof of it. All that's left to speculate is where the boundaries between 'intelligent' and 'non-intelligent' lie or whether boundaries even exist at all, which is quite debatable depending on your definition of intelligence.

That said, it seems incredibly illogical to me that we, as intelligent beings, are somehow an expression of an unintelligent universe. How exactly can something that is conscious and alive come to exist from something unconscious and inanimate? It just doesn't make a mote of sense to me.

Some people will attribute this to god; that is, to an external force that brought intelligence into existence among non-intelligence. Personally, I think it makes more sense that the boundaries between intelligence and non-intelligence are illusions that we have created, and that in truth the universe is a lot more intelligent than we give it credit for.

[darth stoner]

Actually, from a purely logical and reasonable point, I still see more evidence of god's existence than non-existence.

The thing is, what you might define as evidence completely depends on your definition of god. If I was to set out on the daunting task of trying to prove the judeo-christian god of the old testament real, I would be hard pressed to find reasonable evidence of his existence beyond some millenia-old scriptures.

The biggest piece of evidence that I can think of in support of the existence of God (at least, as relating to my personal understanding of God) is intelligence. Here is one thing that I don't need to prove to anyone; intelligence exists, and we ourselves are living, breathing and thinking proof of it. All that's left to speculate is where the boundaries between 'intelligent' and 'non-intelligent' lie or whether boundaries even exist at all, which is quite debatable depending on your definition of intelligence.

That said, it seems incredibly illogical to me that we, as intelligent beings, are somehow an expression of an unintelligent universe. How exactly can something that is conscious and alive come to exist from something unconscious and inanimate? It just doesn't make a mote of sense to me.

Some people will attribute this to god; that is, to an external force that brought intelligence into existence among non-intelligence. Personally, I think it makes more sense that the boundaries between intelligence and non-intelligence are illusions that we have created, and that in truth the universe is a lot more intelligent than we give it credit for.

I would be inclined to think your definition of 'God' would match Einstein's God ("god" is the universe/nature itself and all the processes within, I agree with this definition altough I'd rather not call it "god"). If this is so, then I completely agree with you especially with your last paragraph, when you say the universe might be a lot more intelligent than what we think. Given that we are limited by our knowledge and locality (we only know a very tiny fraction of this universe - yet), what might look like chaotic and random events (galaxies merging, stars exploding etc) could be part of something bigger, something that we can't grasp because we only have a small set of the pieces in the big puzzle. That is a reasonable statement to make. Now, an uber-powerful creature who knows everything you think and will condemn you to eternal damnation if you don't believe in him, that is pure nonsense.

[PureEvil760]

It is not God that is hiding from science, it is science that is hiding from God.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

dude, that sentence stumped both me and my wife (who both have a relatively good understading of english and being able to translate shit no one else coudl lol... )




if it has no mind, it has neither matter nor energy.



in other words, it cannot exist if it cannot think.


rocks would not exist if they had no thoughts.

the entire whole of everything that is included within the concept of infinity requires mind in order to exist.


to exist physically, it requires consciousness.


to exist mentally, we need only think about it.


the more a concept is thought about, the more energy is given to it, the sooner it will become a conscious concept, and able to manifest physically.




this is the way i see reality, is a singular, infinite mind.

everything that exists is thought.

first, it must be thought of, then it must be a conceived idea, a thought that has been worked on enough to give it form and concept.

then it must be given more thought in order for it to gain consciousness, where after it can become real.


physics are an elaborate organization of individual minds working together.

the mind of gravity, the mind of heat, the mind of light, the mind of magnetism.... many many minds working as one.


if it exists, it has mind. if it's physical, it has consciousness.

[xTsUnAmI]

Personally I don't believe in God. But why hassle people who do. Everyone has different beliefs, and faith works for a lot of people. The only thing about religion that bothers me is when other people try to push their beliefs on me. So I don't push my beliefs on others.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

Personally I don't believe in God. But why hassle people who do. Everyone has different beliefs, and faith works for a lot of people. The only thing about religion that bothers me is when other people try to push their beliefs on me. So I don't push my beliefs on others.



i agree with that, why force people to think and believe like you do? that's asinine and contrary to most religious teachings!

[darth stoner]

Personally I don't believe in God. But why hassle people who do. Everyone has different beliefs, and faith works for a lot of people

Because believing in something because you were told to, without having evidence is bad. I hope you wouldn't jump off a cliff because I told you it isn't a cliff, for instance.

Religion is dangerous people, and I think I don't need to mention any recent events, as everyone still remembers.

Now I know some of you will bring up the point that religious people help the poor and starving, help with charity and all that. These facts cannot be denied, of course. But if you think about it, you don't need to be religious to want to help other people..



The only thing about religion that bothers me is when other people try to push their beliefs on me. So I don't push my beliefs on others.

Understandable, but if I was wrong on something and a friend of mine knew it, I would appreciate if he pointed it out to me. I believe it's a moral obligation we have to raise the consciousness of other human beings. If they don't want to be assisted that's fine, and of course, as you say, people are entitled to have their beliefs. But why believe without evidence ? I have a few religious friends and I can clearly see how believing impacts their life negatively. When you believe Jesus is about to come back and apocalypse is near, and that you'll be in heaven for eternity, you're bound to not care that much about this one life.. If instead you *know* this is your only shot, and that being alive is so improbable yet we're here to talk about it, once you think about that you'll start living life to it's fullest..

Now the following is a bit off topic, but it's an excellent read so I'll drop the link here:

RichardDawkins.net - The Official Richard Dawkins Website (http://richarddawkins.net/article,536,God-Is-Not-a-Moderate,Sam-Harris-and-Andrew-Sullivan-Beliefnetcom)

[Pass That Shit]

Are we blind? Look around. What do wee see? Wisdom. From the clouds above, to the rain falling and watering the ground causing the seed to sprout and grow until harvest to feed man. Life reveals wisdom. How can one deny wisdom in the Earth? The harvest is coming.

Look around and learn. Everything comes from seed. Just as your weed plant comes from itself, so do we. What makes you think we evolved from something else? What did your weed plant evolve from? What did apes evolve from? Everything comes from seed. Did we collect bones of a half ape half man to prove mans' evolution? Or did we evolve from apes overnight? Do we have proof that weed evolved from something else? Evolution is a fairy tale. Change is not evolution. A man plants seed in woman and brings child. The child grows and matures. This is not evolution. This is wisdom. How does science prove evolution? I think science points out that things have changed but can't predict what and when evolution takes place.

What did the sun evolve from? And the Earth, how did it get into it's place? What does science tell us about this? Did the heavens evolve or were they always there? These Coors Lights are bringing out the questions in me. :stoned:

[afghooey]

I would be inclined to think your definition of 'God' would match Einstein's God ("god" is the universe/nature itself and all the processes within, I agree with this definition altough I'd rather not call it "god"). If this is so, then I completely agree with you especially with your last paragraph, when you say the universe might be a lot more intelligent than what we think. Given that we are limited by our knowledge and locality (we only know a very tiny fraction of this universe - yet), what might look like chaotic and random events (galaxies merging, stars exploding etc) could be part of something bigger, something that we can't grasp because we only have a small set of the pieces in the big puzzle. That is a reasonable statement to make. Now, an uber-powerful creature who knows everything you think and will condemn you to eternal damnation if you don't believe in him, that is pure nonsense.

Pretty much, yes. I don't believe that we are islands of consciousness in an unconscious universe. All consciousness is, if you really think about it, is resonance. When we experience the 'outside' world, what we're really experiencing is the reflection of it in our minds. When we think about the world, we are reflecting on it.

All energy reacts to other energy and resonates with information. Of course, the resonance of the human brain is much more complex than that of, say, a rock, because a brain has the power to retain information for longer periods of time, to draw out the resonations... not unlike how echoes are drawn out in music to make melodeous sounds.

One can say that the collective consciousness of the universe is god. It really is a matter of perspective. As Einstein himself said:
"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."

[darth stoner]

Are we blind? Look around. What do wee see? Wisdom. From the clouds above, to the rain falling and watering the ground causing the seed to sprout and grow until harvest to feed man. Life reveals wisdom. How can one deny wisdom in the Earth? The harvest is coming.


Evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution)

Evolution is about biological organisms, not planets and stars. There are various theories that attempt to explain the things you mention in your last paragraph, and even tho we still don't know some of then (and so many more), how does that even prooves that there is a god above it all ?





How does science proves evolution ?


The child grows and matures. This is not evolution. This is wisdom. How does science prove evolution? I think science points out that things have changed but can't predict what and when evolution takes place.

Antibiotic resistance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_resistance)

quote:

"Causes

Schematic representation of how antibiotic resistance evolves via natural selection. The top section represents a population of bacteria before exposure to an antibiotic. The middle section shows the population directly after exposure, the phase in which selection took place. The last section shows the distribution of resistance in a new generation of bacteria. The legend indicates the resistance levels of individuals.

Antibiotic resistance is a consequence of evolution via natural selection or programmed evolution. The antibiotic action is an environmental pressure; those bacteria which have a mutation allowing them to survive will live on to reproduce. They will then pass this trait to their offspring, which will be a fully resistant generation."



The way you talk about evolution only shows how badly informed you are about it. Will you also contest the above quote ? Because the same people that worked to figure that out also worked to give you vaccines, and they do work. So they must surely know something about the subject, or vaccines would be a fiasco.


What makes you think we evolved from something else?

quote:
"The closest living relatives of Homo sapiens are the two species of chimpanzee: the Bonobo (Pan paniscus) and the Common Chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes). The two species are equally close (they share the same common ancestor), the main difference between them is the social organization: matriarchal for the Bonobo and patriarchal for the Common Chimpanzee.[6] Full genome sequencing resulted in the conclusion that "after 6.5 [million] years of separate evolution, the differences between bonobo/chimpanzee and human are just 10 times greater than those between two unrelated people and 10 times less than those between rats and mice". In fact, 98.4% of the DNA sequence is identical between the two Pan species and human.[6][7][8][9]"

This might be hard for you to believe, here's the full article:

Human - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humans#Evolution)

Please, take the time to read it.


you think we evolved from something else? What did your weed plant evolve from? What did apes evolve from? Everything comes from seed. Did we collect bones of a half ape half man to prove mans' evolution? Or did we evolve from apes overnight? Do we have proof that weed evolved from something else? Evolution is a fairy tale. Change is not evolution. A man plants seed in woman and brings child. (...)

Origin of life - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life)

Doesn't hold all the answers, but again, that doesn't mean there is a god to account for the bits we couldn't figure out yet. It only means our knowledge is partial, but by no means do we need a god to make sense of the available scientific data.

Some more (quite) interesting reads:
Timeline of evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_evolution)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ancestor's_Tale



What did the sun evolve from? And the Earth, how did it get into it's place? What does science tell us about this? Did the heavens evolve or were they always there? These Coors Lights are bringing out the questions in me. :stoned:

History of Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Earth)

And again, evolution by natural selection refers to biological organisms, not stars and planets.. there are other models available to explain the formation of these.




Just because science cannot explain some things, it doesn't mean there is a god. It only means we couldn't grasp that particular problem yet. We will someday. Perhaps we won't be able to solve some of them. But that only shows a limitation in our intellect, it doesn't mean there is a god.


I hope you can make sense of all the information provided, I know it's a lot of it especially if you didn't know we already knew these things.. it's not fiction or fairy tales, there is so many evidence available to support all the above that I would take forever to even attempt to organize it. Wikipedia is an excellent start to know more about this stuff, I also recommend the following sites to keep up to date:

Learn More at Space.com. From Satellites to Stars, NASA information, Astronomy, the Sun and the Planets, we have your information here. (http://space.com/)
LiveScience.com: (http://www.livescience.com/)
PhysOrg.com: latest science and technology news (http://www.physorg.com/)
RichardDawkins.net (http://richarddawkins.net/)


We live in the 21st century, it's about time we embrace scientific knowledge and stop believing in myths that were created in the dawn of civilization. We simply know better today man. I hope to live to the day that we conquer space and cheat death itself. Only science will make that possible, not ancient myths.

[darth stoner]

little correction, I meant anti*biotics* and not *vaccines* on the above post. 6AM post :)

[Polymirize]

Because believing in something because you were told to, without having evidence is bad.

Prove it.

[darth stoner]

Take a loaded gun, unlock it, point it at your unshielded head and shoot. You can believe me, it won't kill you. Have faith in me.










If you believe this just because I told you, you're dead. (you had faith)
If you don't, you're alive. (you reasoned it wasn't such a good idea)

That's why.

[PureEvil760]

Sorry, but cant resist. People who say they dont believe in God just appear as retarded cowering idiots..its like they use shitloads of energy trying to prove that it does'nt exist...why are you trying to prove somthing that you already believe to be false to other people? It is because somewhere deep under your desparate ego there is the part of you that is God and all you can do is run from it, build more barriers to give you a false sence of security, and you will do this for the rest of your life..it is sad. I know for a fact God is real, because God is everything God is every bird, every leaf, every bug, it is your spit, your tears, every single thing is God. Now ur going to question how I know... I have had divine experiences which I cannot explain, but it has givin me 100% factual evidence that God is real. Those that don't or cant believe in God are just pussys, they have a need to be right all the time..a need to explain everything, they fear stepping into the unknown. Sorry, but everything you know is wrong and you are just a waste of space until you step towards God.

You will be given the same tests over and over and over again in life until you change direction, if that day never comes..then sorry about the shitty life.

"Where there is no fear, there is faith" -Kiowa

[darth stoner]

<irony>That's what I call a clear, concise and well thought out text PureEvil.</irony> You have posted now and then and I've refrained from replying to you because you were never making sense, now you do for the first time, and you're on the offensive - was all of the above too much for you ?


If you believe in god that's fine, but unless you've got something of value to add to our discussion, open a shell and cat it to /dev/null -- it never gets enough.

[PureEvil760]

Too much for me? honestly it was all just drivel that I really didnt read..I'm trying to help you for I feel terrible for the tormented souls such as yours that may very well go through life blind.

[darth stoner]

So you bump in here, don't follow the flow of our discussion, accuse everyone who has a different point of view of being a retarded idiot, while making a fool of yourself. (had you read our discussion, you would know by now that no one is trying to prove that god doesn't exist, as we've already reached the consensus that it cannot be disproven).

Not happy with that, you still feel sorry for some of us, and in a glimpse of supreme arrogance, you claim to know better than ourselves what WE think.

Despite all that, you have not made a single valid point to defend what you believe in, other than something comparable to "I was high on LSD and I saw a 8-legged cat with a crown and a divine scepter, so now I believe him"

So please, and again, cat - > /dev/null

[PureEvil760]

Human language is pointless darth, you could speak for hours and hours about outter things and it will all just appear as mindless ranting trying to prove somthing that isnt true...all that is there is blah blah blah blah blah blah I'm refusing salvation blah blah blah blah..*sigh..

[PureEvil760]

Like I said sorry that im disturbing your ego..and all you can do is try to disturb mine in retaliation, but mine is very far out of your reach. Some of the half sceptics like Poly get to me sometimes, but thats cause they acctually have somthing slightly itelligent to say from thier own thought, not just stating a bunch of factual outter things.

[darth stoner]

You're assuming this is about ego, and you're assuming I want to retaliate.

You're wrong on both.

I would have to be at the same level you're in (insanity) to even attempt to have an argument with someone who claims language is worthless.

Pass That Shit, I'd very much like to hear back from you and know if you could extract anything meaningful from my reply. Cheers.

[PureEvil760]

Until you see a slight glimmering of truth, everything for you is about ego.

[PureEvil760]

As Einstein himself said:
"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Ha I have that quote framed in my bathroom.

[RedRainDrop]

I think god begins at the pupil, the window to our soul. We are all interlaced spiritually from one thing we all have, Eyes (animals, plants and microorganisms all have eyes, if not, other ways of sensing the world around them) Eyes are the building blocks of life....

The third eye is the 6th chakra. As it begins to activate and open, it is a common experience that one sees an eye, or eyes, looking back at them. Your perspective in, dreams, of colors, your personal life and relationships, will be seen through a 'new light.' You are moving into a higher frequency that enables you to expand your consciousness and see reality on many levels and dimensions. This can be a quantum leap in perception and can be life changing as you discard patterns that no longer work in higher frequency. Your total perception changes in this acceleration of time.

The opening of the eye, is symbolic of a time of awakening, the evolution of consciousness -- the activation of your DNA = 11:11 digital alarm. The opening of the eye, Iris, Isis, I, can be the physical eye or what is called the 'third eye', which looks up and out, has a lens and is the pineal gland.

The camera slows down the action allowing us to experience events as linear in nature, when indeed they are not. Exploring in linear time allows us to experience emotions through an electromagnetic field, duality, polarity, love vs. fear. We see balance as we awaken and remember that we are souls sparks, the twinkling lights you see, who are in a physical form that is evolving back to its original creation, pole shifts of consciousness, earth changes both physical and as metaphors.

There is much symbology linked with the image of the 'eye', all linking to the eye as a metaphor for the source of creation, God, Eye of God. :jointsmile:

[RedRainDrop]

[quote=PureEvil760] I know for a fact God is real, because God is everything God is every bird, every leaf, every bug, it is your spit, your tears, every single thing is God. Now ur going to question how I know... I have had divine experiences which I cannot explain, but it has givin me 100% factual evidence that God is real.

This is wise, i have also had these divine experiences, and i can see god in every bird, leaf, plants, or pupil of any animal. We are all interconnected spiritually is my belief.

[Matt the Funk]

I just want to know why everyone cares so much? If you die and end up in hell, that sucks. If you die and end up in heaven, thats great. If you die and cease to have awareness, awesome. If you die and becoem a ghost or some sort of apparition, cool. The idea of Gods and stuff is created to gives us a sense of protection, purpose, and well being. A lot of humans view things alike, I assume it's our instincts. But for those of us who have different views(which would be everyone I suposse), a lot of stuff cotradicts itself. Everyone experiences shit in their own way, and interperets in their own way as well. I personally believe we should all just accept eachothers expereinces/perceptions because there is no way to prove them false/true. So go ahead, and believe what you want to believe. You will never know the real truth, except maybe when you die. And I guess since the truth sets you free, death sets you free. And sorry i'm not good at putting stuff into words, my thoughts are really disorganized.

[funfubarman]

When that does happen then science will become the "new christanity" don't you watch south park

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

First God was in the sky. We explored the sky and learned what was really up there.

Then God was in space, beyond the sky. We explored space and learned what was really out there.

Now God is in another dimension? Come one. When we're able to explore other dimensions, where will your God run to hide from science?

In other news, here's a fun video: YouTube - Rational Response Squad takes on Christians on ABC (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-rKiGJrcNw)




ok, to follow up my posts...


scientifically prove that thought exists.

scientifically prove that i am thinking.

and most of all, scientifically prove the source and nature of thought.

[couch-potato]

ok, to follow up my posts...


scientifically prove that thought exists.

scientifically prove that i am thinking.

and most of all, scientifically prove the source and nature of thought.


Go read a biology textbook. Once you understand a few key basic principles, move on to Psychology.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

eh, i dont happen to hany any suck books on hand, care to help a stoner out? lol


i really dont know what you're getting at though.

[PureEvil760]

I just want to know why everyone cares so much? If you die and end up in hell, that sucks. If you die and end up in heaven, thats great. If you die and cease to have awareness, awesome. If you die and becoem a ghost or some sort of apparition, cool. The idea of Gods and stuff is created to gives us a sense of protection, purpose, and well being. A lot of humans view things alike, I assume it's our instincts. But for those of us who have different views(which would be everyone I suposse), a lot of stuff cotradicts itself. Everyone experiences shit in their own way, and interperets in their own way as well. I personally believe we should all just accept eachothers expereinces/perceptions because there is no way to prove them false/true. So go ahead, and believe what you want to believe. You will never know the real truth, except maybe when you die. And I guess since the truth sets you free, death sets you free. And sorry i'm not good at putting stuff into words, my thoughts are really disorganized.

Hell-FAKE, experienced astral projectors have explained what hell is in multiple books. Heaven-FAKE same deal. Ghosts are just imprints of dead humans, they have no real consiousness. Saying you will never know the truth is a false statement, if you search for the truth you will find it, the only place to find it is within yourself. Its true we cannot prove our own spiritual experiences, but the people that have them are the ones who look inward instead of outward like 99% of humans.

[Polymirize]

half-skeptic? Half? I'll have you know PureEvil, that I am 100% skeptic... I just happen to realise the limitations on that particular mode of inquiry and (hopefully) avoid making a dogmatic ass of myself quite as much as some of the other skeptics...

And Darth. Cute example. I don't have a gun so you'll have to provide me with something else. Personally, what I'm really wondering is how you know the axiom:

"believing in something because you were told to, without having evidence is bad"

is true? You spit that out like it's some straight muthafuckin a priori shit, but I'd hoped that you'd recognise the incredible hypocrisy of your statement. Where's the evidence?

[darth stoner]

Could you point out the hypocrisy ?

I've pointed out to you one example of how believing something because you were told to would have ended up negatively affecting you. I can do it with pretty much any other situation (getting in the middle of the road, jumping out of the window head first, get in the bear cage @ the local zoo, let yourself burn, you pick).

If I (or any1 else, even a "divine" voice in your head when you're high) asked you to do any of the above, do you think you're better off with faith or with rational thought ?

If you answered faith, then we have nothing else to discuss.

But hey, if you need a bigger example, just ask yourself if the 9/11 hijackers would have had the balls to kill themselves if they seriously did not believe there was an eternal life of joy with i-dunno-how-many virgins waiting for them in heaven. Now you tell me that is not bad and is a fucking hypocrisy :)

[PureEvil760]

poly i said half cause i know you believe in some spiritual things, not necessarily God.

Darth, would you like to live in fear or walk in love?, I already see you made the choice of fear so I'll discuss stuff with you if you want but u got some pretty big false attachments with ur self. U said before i was tripping off acid or somthing, no I have never done acid only drugs i ever did was weed and coke, and i was not on any drugs accept maybe nicotine at the time of my divine experiences..and no there was no "voices" involved in any of them.
Also after a couple of these experiences I felt better than I ever felt in my life which is very hard evidence for me.

Im sorry your an idiot.

[PureEvil760]

One was seeing the Holy Violet Flame, do a search for it on google and u will see im not the only one that has seen it.

[darth stoner]

PureEvil, I recommend the nearest mental institution to you.

You are not even able to distinguish "imagine you took LSD and you saw something" from "you took LSD".

You "live in fear or in love" makes no sense, as you make the utterly absurd assertion that believing in god == love and not believing == fear. Any mentally sane person wouldn't expect to say "this means this and that means that and you're this because of that" without making a clear case of why it is so.

And I don't for one moment doubt you felt better after the so-said experiences, same as an heroin addict feels better after the dose. Does that make heroin good, loveable, or correct? No.

Again, find a mental institution. There is still time for you.

Should you not want to get yourself treated, then at least stop chatting with us idiots,retarded,not enlightened, dumb, language-loving, rational people, because your mental diarrhea only makes you look a little more insane.

[PureEvil760]

You are much more insane than I ever was, you are far away from the truth..just keep running man live ur life in fear if you want, Id like to see you turn around but thats probably not going to happen. Why do you choose suffering over eternal joy? it makes no sence to me.

[PureEvil760]

Darth, I know 2 year olds that say 700% more intelligent shit than you, im not just saying that to piss you off, its true.

[afghooey]

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

Consider this before you judge, PureEvil.

No one is going to come closer to enlightenment from insult-slinging tactics.

[delusionsofNORMALity]

You "live in fear or in love" makes no sense, as you make the utterly absurd assertion that believing in god == love and not believing == fear....

it makes perfect sense in the strictly black and white world of pseudo-spirituality. religious thought resides in the realm of absolutes. a thing or person is either good or evil, shades of grey cannot exist where a divine force has final say over all of the conditions of existence. the exact terminology may vary, but the message remains the same. you are either for us or you are against us, you are either of the chosen or you are doomed.

:beatdeadhorse: this may very well become my favorite smilie for this forum

[PureEvil760]

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

Consider this before you judge, PureEvil.

No one is going to come closer to enlightenment from insult-slinging tactics.

Hehe, i get what ur trying to say, but the last sentence is false, people's egos need to feel threatened..im not trying to attack the "person" im just attacking thier ego.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

Hehe, i get what ur trying to say, but the last sentence is false, people's egos need to feel threatened..im not trying to attack the "person" im just attacking thier ego.

the ego is fueled by attacks.


it can only learn on it's own.







you can lead a horse to water....

but you cant get over how huge his balls are... er i mean you cant make him drink.

[PureEvil760]

The more ego gets threatened and confused the weaker it becomes. I only had spiritual experiences after suffering greatly for years.

[PureEvil760]

I dont know much about Buddah but I have read that he was in a state of great suffering for many years also.

[afghooey]

I'm going to have to agree with Stoner Shadow Wolf on this one...

Not only can you not make a horse drink, if you try to force him to he'll be even more reluctant to do so. A friendly approach can do just as much damage to someone's ego, IMO, and probably more. If you can persuade someone to reevaluate their own beliefs, the rest of the barriers will come down with time. But I'm afraid you're not going to persuade anyone by calling them an unenlightened idiot. In fact, you're likely to drive them away from even considering what you might have to say.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

I dont know much about Buddah but I have read that he was in a state of great suffering for many years also.


that was, i do believe, a conscious decision, however.


nobody was intentionally influencing him to make the decisions he made and go through with the suffering.


he made the decision on his own, it's what he strove for.

[darth stoner]

Hehe, i get what ur trying to say, but the last sentence is false, people's egos need to feel threatened..im not trying to attack the "person" im just attacking thier ego.

What you fail to realize is that you're not attacking anyone's ego (at least successfully). This thread is not about egos, it's about reason and logic.

If you want people to even take you seriously, then you should be able to defend your beliefs, instead of just saying "it's true and you're an idiot". Doing that is considered a weak defense and is a really petty way to defend what you believe in.

So far the atheists have shown that while we cannot disprove god -- the same way nobody can disprove tooth fairies and unicorns -- that is not a good reason to believe. If it was so, then I would believe in unicorns too, just because you cannot disprove them. We've shown that the current scientific theories are more than enough to account for an universe without a god. We've provided links to sources where you can learn more about these theories. If science is good enough to build nuclear bombs and airplanes, spaceships, and pretty much everything you see around you, don't you think it's just a little bit arrogant to say it cannot be right about religion ?

Look back at your posts, how have you defended your point of view ? By insulting the people who have defended theirs with palpable evidence and saying "this is how things are. why ? because I say so. and you're an idiot for not thinking like me".

It's because of all the above that I actually feel sorry for you. You will NEVER change your mind, not even if all the evidence is piled in front of you. I would change mine, if I was given evidence. I don't say all the scientific theories are correct or that we know everything, that's the information we have to work with now. It's just like evolution, you need to be wrong most of the time in order to come up with something right.

The proof that science is in the good path ?

http://www.humanistsofutah.org/images/PaleBlueDot.jpg

^^ earth as seen by Voyager 1, about 4 billion miles away, taken in 1990.

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/117988main_image_feature_347_ys_4.jpg

^^ sunset on mars, taken by the mars rovers

For me, the above is beautiful. Only through science have we been able to see how insignificant our home planet is (while some religious people STILL believe, amazingly, that the earth IS the center of the universe to this day), and only through science have we been able to see the sunset on alien planets.

Science has shown to people that want to see it things that are indeed beautiful. Religion is about believing something that cannot be seen is beautiful.

[Polymirize]

Could you point out the hypocrisy ?

I'd be happy too, although I do have to admit... :beatdeadhorse:

I've pointed out to you one example of how believing something because you were told to would have ended up negatively affecting you. I can do it with pretty much any other situation (getting in the middle of the road, jumping out of the window head first, get in the bear cage @ the local zoo, let yourself burn, you pick).

If I (or any1 else, even a "divine" voice in your head when you're high) asked you to do any of the above, do you think you're better off with faith or with rational thought ?

If you answered faith, then we have nothing else to discuss.

Glad to hear your openminded towards discussion. Let me provide you with a counter-example, when I was young my parents warned me not to touch the stove, they said it would burn, and even though I'd never seen the stove burn anything, I took their word for it. At 4 years old (younger?) I didn't have much in the way of critical reasoning skills, but I had some faith in my parents. So I guess you could say I took their word on faith, and remained unburned by stove.


But hey, if you need a bigger example, just ask yourself if the 9/11 hijackers would have had the balls to kill themselves if they seriously did not believe there was an eternal life of joy with i-dunno-how-many virgins waiting for them in heaven. Now you tell me that is not bad and is a fucking hypocrisy :)

Actually, I think this is a horrible example. You presume that any suicide attack or total commitment is impossible without belief of immortality. And that's clearly false. I don't think there are any virgins waiting for me, but that doesn't mean I can't think of some things that I think are worth dying for. Can't you?


All bold my own.

And in addition, I guess I have to explain... It's hypocritical to assert that people need evidence to believe things, but then provide none. We're all just supposed to take your word on the matter I suppose, but honestly you're not that convincing.

I suspect your definition of religion if very different from that of most religious people. And that's sad, because you think you're proving something, but actually you're completely missing the point...

[darth stoner]

And in addition, I guess I have to explain... It's hypocritical to assert that people need evidence to believe things, but then provide none. We're all just supposed to take your word on the matter I suppose, but honestly you're not that convincing.


I didn't say you should believe my sentence, I simple said believing without evidence is bad. You have a mind to decide on your own, if you think I was trying to force that down on you, then you've misinterpreted my words and failed to understand the point I was making.

If you believe without evidence, then:

- Unicorns exist.
- Fairies exist.
- Angels exist.
- Mars has complex life hiding from us.
- The cookie monster is also hiding, but he certainly exists.
- Zeus is the real god and is having a really nice laugh at the whole western religion thing.

Are all valid examples. If you say believing without evidence is good, then the only possible logical outcome is to say the above sentences are not ridiculous. Do you agree they are not ?


Your stove example demonstrates an interesting point tho, ironically there's also a scientific explanation for that.

As childs, we're programmed to believe whatever our parents tell us. That's how we manage to stay alive during these years where we'd otherwise jump off a cliff to see what happens. You can override this programming (curiosity), but if you think back, you had a strange feeling that it would be better to trust what your parents told you.

Sadly, that's why religion still thrives after so much time. Children are indocrinated at an early age and the genetic programming tells them to believe whatever their parents are telling them.


I suspect your definition of religion if very different from that of most religious people.

define:religion - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=define:religion&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)



And that's sad, because you think you're proving something, but actually you're completely missing the point...


"Hypocrisy is the act of condemning another person, where the stated basis for the criticism is the breach of a rule which also applies to the critic. A person engaged in hypocrisy is called a hypocrite."

How can you be so sure of what I'm thinking I'm proving ?



Actually, I think this is a horrible example. You presume that any suicide attack or total commitment is impossible without belief of immortality. And that's clearly false. I don't think there are any virgins waiting for me, but that doesn't mean I can't think of some things that I think are worth dying for. Can't you?

I didn't presume anything, you're taking my words out of context.

Now reflect and think why you've never seen a buddhist or a christian guy taking two planes and stuffing them on two towers. No, religion isn't the only possible answer, but why do we only see such things coming from islam?

Because they really believe what their magic book says, and in their twisted minds, there are really virgins and eternal joy waiting.

[krazy chino]

well i believe in God for the simple that its impossible for us to NOT have a creator......we have a creator period.

[darth stoner]

If your reasoning is "everything has a creator", then you must agree that the creator has a creator. And the creator of the creator also has a creator. And the creator of the creator of the creator has a creator. etc.

That is not a good reason, chino.

Evolution by natural selection provides a good and concise explanation about the evolution of species, without the need for the supernatural/divine.

Natural selection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_Selection)
Evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution)

[Polymirize]

If you say believing without evidence is good, then the only possible logical outcome is to say the above sentences are not ridiculous. Do you agree they are not ?

Interesting. If I don't care about evidence though, why would I care about your "logical" outcomes?


Your stove example demonstrates an interesting point tho, ironically there's also a scientific explanation for that.

As childs, we're programmed to believe whatever our parents tell us. That's how we manage to stay alive during these years where we'd otherwise jump off a cliff to see what happens. You can override this programming (curiosity), but if you think back, you had a strange feeling that it would be better to trust what your parents told you.

Wow. We definately have different definitions going on. I didn't feel that was a very scientific example at all. Despite all your rather condescending cookie monster examples, we can construct imaginary scenarios to prove things all day long, and still not prove anything.
My point was, I had some faith in my parents, and it paid off. In this particular case, inquiry would have burned me.

It's not that I disagree with you, not necessarily. I just think your vision is remarkably polarized and dualistic for someone not of a fundamentally religious bent. Were you raised catholic or something out of curiousity?


Now reflect and think why you've never seen a buddhist or a christian guy taking two planes and stuffing them on two towers. No, religion isn't the only possible answer, but why do we only see such things coming from islam?

Because they really believe what their magic book says, and in their twisted minds, there are really virgins and eternal joy waiting.


That's an interpretation. Sure. I think its an incredible simplification, necessitated by a rather simple mind. Terrorists are motivated by the appeal of metaphysical pussy. My own hypothesis would be that they view the world differently, through a vastly different subjective lens, and feel that their actions are justified. That its a sacrifice worth their lives.
Are you aware of the buddhist monks who set themselves on fire in protest of the Vietnam war?
One of these viewpoints makes the adversary out to be a crazed lunatic, which is very comforting when you have to fight them. The other viewpoint shows that they might very well be a human being, and that the problem lies elsewhere.
It's really hard to have dialogue with people who you condescend towards. Maybe if you dropped the "us vs them" attitude you could actually create some change rather than just insulting people.

Though I admit, it can be quite fun at times...


As always, all bold my own.

[darth stoner]

Interesting. If I don't care about evidence though, why would I care about your "logical" outcomes?

You're free to care about what you want.


My point was, I had some faith in my parents, and it paid off. In this particular case, inquiry would have burned me.

If you got burned, you would have learned not to touch the stove anyway. Humans, like other animals, also learn by trial and error.


Despite all your rather condescending cookie monster examples, we can construct imaginary scenarios to prove things all day long, and still not prove anything.

Please, do invalidate what I said from a logical standpoint, instead of attempting to nullify it through subjective words.


That's an interpretation. Sure. I think its an incredible simplification, necessitated by a rather simple mind. Terrorists are motivated by the appeal of metaphysical pussy. My own hypothesis would be that they view the world differently, through a vastly different subjective lens, and feel that their actions are justified. That its a sacrifice worth their lives.
Are you aware of the buddhist monks who set themselves on fire in protest of the Vietnam war?
One of these viewpoints makes the adversary out to be a crazed lunatic, which is very comforting when you have to fight them. The other viewpoint shows that they might very well be a human being, and that the problem lies elsewhere.
It's really hard to have dialogue with people who you condescend towards. Maybe if you dropped the "us vs them" attitude you could actually create some change rather than just insulting people.

Though I admit, it can be quite fun at times...

By saying they think it's a sacrifice worth their lives, you're agreeing with what I said. Would they think that way if they didn't believe in Islam ?

As for the monks, the keywords are burned themselves. You're also agreeing with me there, as you've again pointed out the differences in actions caused by the difference in beliefs. (burn themselves as a remarkable act of protest // explode two airplanes on another country, killing thousands).

I don't view Islam as an adversary. I only feel sorry for them, because hopefully western civilization will reach scientific enlightenment this century, and I can't possibly see Islam doing the same (if you don't believe in islam and you are in islam, you'll get killed).

Be very aware that they see the Qu'ran as the word of god, and the qu'ran says they should kill infidels (unbelievers, you and me included).

I didn't understand the "us vs them", perhaps you expected that from me instead and thought about it like that? I can denote this pattern on your earlier texts too. Apparently you expect me to be some kind of person I am not, your answers look a bit premeditated. (this is an observation, not an attack)

[PureEvil760]

I'm going to have to agree with Stoner Shadow Wolf on this one...

Not only can you not make a horse drink, if you try to force him to he'll be even more reluctant to do so. A friendly approach can do just as much damage to someone's ego, IMO, and probably more. If you can persuade someone to reevaluate their own beliefs, the rest of the barriers will come down with time. But I'm afraid you're not going to persuade anyone by calling them an unenlightened idiot. In fact, you're likely to drive them away from even considering what you might have to say.

At the same time I dont really give a shit about what other people do.

[Polymirize]

If you got burned, you would have learned not to touch the stove anyway. Humans, like other animals, also learn by trial and error.

Yeah, and? The whole point is that I learned without requiring that particular painful experience. I'd never consider saying you can't learn by trial and error, but you don't seem to want to grant the point at all that one might learn another way.



Please, do invalidate what I said from a logical standpoint, instead of attempting to nullify it through subjective words.

That's the just the thing. This is a completely subjective matter. You're throwing out a lot of "what if" scenarios, but don't seem to think mine hold water. Maybe they don't. But the flaws of logic you see in my reasoning exist also within your own. You're just not acknowledging them at all. It's very confusing.

By saying they think it's a sacrifice worth their lives, you're agreeing with what I said. Would they think that way if they didn't believe in Islam ?

I'm sorry. You worded it earlier so that it seemed your point was that only people who believed in the virgins of the afterlife would be willing to sacrifice themselves for that cause. I just think sacrifice has a similar mindset regardless of the cause itself. Hence, I see dedication of the monk and the terrorist on a very similar level, even though I disagree with the actions. But I think it's a mistake to confuse the two.

And no, I'm not agreeing with you. That's just something else you're not understanding...

your answers look a bit premeditated. (this is an observation, not an attack)

I would never feel attacked by the suggestion that there might be some actual thought behind what I say. I look forward to a well meditated response.



bold mine.

[PureEvil760]

pwned

[darth stoner]

It does us no good to continue the discussion with poly, he has his view and I have mine, but at least he's sober enough to articulate his view, even if I don't agree with him or his techniques.

So if there's someone who got "pwned", it is you. Because even if me and poly disagree, we attempted to explain ourselves to each other. All you could do was talking about a violet flame and calling us retards :)

[PureEvil760]

REACTION!?!