From Fetus to Baby

[Torog]

From fetus to baby (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1307145/posts)
Townhall.com ^ (http://www.freerepublic.com/%5Ehttp://www.townhall.com/columnists/richlowry/rl20041221.shtml) | December 21, 2004 | Rich Lowry


In a spectacular murder case in Missouri, Lisa Montgomery strangled to death Bobbie Jo Stinnett, who was eight months pregnant. Montgomery cut open Stinnett's womb and kidnapped her child. This is a horrific crime that, like the Scott Peterson case, opens an uncomfortable window into our culture's tortured reasoning on anything related to unborn life.

During the coverage of the crime, the status of the Bobbie Jo Stinnett's unborn girl steadily changed. All at once on AOL News during the weekend, there were headlines tracking events in the case: "Woman Slain, Fetus Stolen"; "Woman Arrested, Baby Returned in Bizarre Murder"; "Infant in Good Health." Note how a "fetus" -- something for which American law and culture has very little respect -- was somehow instantly transformed into a "baby" and "infant" -- for which we have the highest respect. By what strange alchemy does that happen?

An AP story effected this magic transition all in one sentence: "Authorities said Montgomery, 36, confessed to strangling Bobbie Jo Stinnett of Skidmore, Mo., on Thursday, cutting out the fetus and taking the baby back to Kansas." At one point, when Montgomery was still at large, an Amber Alert went out about the Stinnett girl, putting news organizations in the strange position of reporting such an alert for what many of them were still calling a "fetus."

Given that fetuses are routinely destroyed in America (and legally can be destroyed up to the point of delivery), it was odd to see such an uproar about the welfare of one. Indeed, it is tempting to say that from a pure legal point of view, Lisa Montgomery simply killed the wrong victim, taking the life of the mom instead of the fetus.



But that's not entirely true. Earlier this year Congress passed the Unborn Victims of Violence Act partly in reaction to the Peterson case, making it a crime to harm an unborn baby while assaulting the mother. Kate Michelman, president of NARAL, complained that President Bush is doing "everything in his power to restrict a woman's right to choose." Right to choose what? To have her baby harmed by an assailant?

Pro-choicers realize that recognizing the legal status of a fetus in any way undermines a crucial philosophical support of the pro-choice position -- that a baby in the womb has no rights that we are bound to respect. The Missouri "Unborn Child" law, which is in play in the Stinnett case, says "unborn children have protectable interests in life, health, and well-being." The attitude behind that law is impossible to square with the animating principle of Roe v. Wade, which protects any abortion, any time.



The Stinnett case is unusual, but violence against pregnant women -- usually committed by the biological fathers -- is not. According to The Washington Post, homicide is the leading cause of death in pregnant women. It is partly because the boyfriends or lovers decide they don't want the "fetus." As the Post put it in explaining one typical murder, the father "at first denied it was his child, then pressed for an abortion, then plotted murder." "It seems to me that these guys hope against hope for a miscarriage or an abortion, but when everything else fails, they take the life of the woman to avoid having the baby," Jack Levin of Northeastern University told the Post.



When we mourn not just for the women, but for the babies destroyed in such terrible acts, we commit a kind of transgression against the strictest pro-choice orthodoxy. Pro-choicers have a hard time explaining why, if Bill Clinton was right that abortion should be "legal, safe and rare," the practice should be rare. One reason is that there is a continuity between the "fetus" and "baby."



Otherwise, why do we rejoice over ultrasound images of the unborn? Why do we give them names? Why do we pray for their health and happiness? Why are we so quick to go from calling them fetuses to babies?

[Torog]

Howdy Y'all,

I was angry over the use of the term fetus,being used in regards to this incident..I believe that Life begins at conception..the child-is a child-from the git-go,in my book..What say you ?

[jacquelyne]

Thats true its so sad.There are circumstances where things can be different.8mths is a baby not a foetus

[F L E S H]

Exactly. At 8 months, it's a baby, not a foetus. But in my mind there's nothing wrong with abortion. Torog's nice picture shows an abortion at 23 weeks, but if you're stupid enough to wait that long you deserve to go to jail. Abortions are ok up to about 12-13 weeks. After that, it's too late, face the consequence.

[Ed Ward MD]

3rd trimester. Once you get there. It is a baby and a viable life. Not before. Just my opinion based on medical fact and not BS.

Ed

My Best to You and Yours,

A Caring Parent Is A Terrible Thing To Waste.
12,000 to 18,000 NCP's snuff themselves every year.
One every 38 minutes. A Caring Parent Is A Terrible Thing To Waste.
Stop the Tyranny Now!

It's 2004!
Do you know where your grandchildren are?
Do you know where your children are?

24,000 of 36,000 MA Restraining Orders Granted for:
Fear of abuse not even an abuse allegation.
Do you know where your grandchildren's children will be?

At least 9 million NCPs are behind on CS.
Estimates of 1/2 a million already jailed.

Ed Ward, MD,
Founder, LA-CRC, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LA-CRC/
edward19(at)cox.net (at) = @ (for the @ crawlers) my email.
http://thepriceofliberty.org/ward.htm
https://www.quickbase.com/db/99r7qj9f?redmsg=E-mail+sent+to+HaversineConsulting (Class action lawsuit state info)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/louisianacivilrightscouncil/ (LA state info)
http://www.FIRMncp.com
Learn about your Family and Individual Constitutional Rights and this governments Constitutional Restrictions and Vote.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Ed+Ward%2C+MD%22+&btnG=Google+Search

5 Women gang rape a criminal and torture him. Only 2 are actually charged. Prison terms given for rape, torture, attempted murder and kidnapping? 4 months. I repeat. 4 MONTHS. Where is Equality? "You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant" of judicial gendercide. After all, according to the DA. "No one was hurt". Mary Franks and "The Cucumber Incident".

5 years of collecting child support and no one even bothered to see if the child was real. Trevino.

FAIR USE NOTICE This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.

[pisshead]

but at some point, you're stopping the fetus from reaching that stage where it's wrong to kill him/her. at what point are you denying that something will without a doubt become a life? the fetus from the moment conception starts will reach that stage eventually, won't it? why is it okay to kill it sooner, rather than later?

just because maybe it can't feel pain, doesn't mean you can take the life away.

i don't know. i've really come around on abortion, i'm totally against it. i can't help but think of it as a culture of evil. it literally was brought to us en masse in large part by the rockefeller family and their population funds...kissinger, them type of people.

i recommend reading the rockefeller by gary allen for more on that. posted some of it or all of it, i can't remember.

[Nullific]

An unborn child is a fetus, and the human population is large enough as it is. I believe in reincarnation before anything else, so if a fetus is aborted it seems they would move on to another body and maybe have a better next life.

[juggalo420]

i say its not a baby until it can live outside of the womb.

[Conservatoker]

You guys obviosly don't have any kids. Otherwise you would see this much differently. Try telling me that "it's not a baby" as I am watching video ultrasound of my daughter sucking her thumb @ four months after conception.

Until you have kids and unless you have the heart to really embrace what that miracle of life is about, you can not understand how wrong any abortion is.

[juggalo420]

You guys obviosly don't have any kids. Otherwise you would see this much differently. Try telling me that "it's not a baby" as I am watching video ultrasound of my daughter sucking her thumb @ four months after conception.

Until you have kids and unless you have the heart to really embrace what that miracle of life is about, you can not understand how wrong any abortion is.
first of all life isnt a miracle its biology. and while an ultrasound of your daughter is proof enough for you, it is not for other people. They view the test of life is whether or not the fetus can live indepedantly from the mother.

[Torog]

You guys obviosly don't have any kids. Otherwise you would see this much differently. Try telling me that "it's not a baby" as I am watching video ultrasound of my daughter sucking her thumb @ four months after conception.

Until you have kids and unless you have the heart to really embrace what that miracle of life is about, you can not understand how wrong any abortion is.
Howdy Conservatoker,

Once again,I agree with what you're saying-until one has become a parent..they will never be able to understand this issue.

Life is a miracle-not an 'event' !!

My daughter,is a miracle and a joyous wonder,a true blessing from God..I love her with every fibre of my being,and as a parent,I cannot but help,to rally to the cause of all children,be they yet unborn..or not. I view abortion as murder,and the radical gay agenda targetting our children,is akin to wolves stalking lambs..I will fight against both..as a father,I could do no less.

Have a good one...Torog

[thecrackbaby]

You guys obviosly don't have any kids. Otherwise you would see this much differently. Try telling me that "it's not a baby" as I am watching video ultrasound of my daughter sucking her thumb @ four months after conception.

Until you have kids and unless you have the heart to really embrace what that miracle of life is about, you can not understand how wrong any abortion is.



Feel free to adopt on the hundreds of thousands of unwanted retarded mutant freaks who right now are slobbering in group homes, waiting to come live with you and shit on your floor.
You just want to force your religion on me

[thecrackbaby]

And BTW i have 2 kids, that has nothing to do with it. Both would have been a fetus in a dumpster behind the hospital if the tests showed anything fucked up

[NowhereMan]

first of all life isnt a miracle its biology. and while an ultrasound of your daughter is proof enough for you, it is not for other people. They view the test of life is whether or not the fetus can live indepedantly from the mother.


first of all life isnt a miracle ....are you fucking kidding me,its a miracle any life left on earth at all.
its biology....only thing ya said made any sense

and while an ultrasound of your daughter is proof enough for you, it is not for other people. They(you mean you)
view the test of life is whether or not the fetus can live indepedantly from the mother
let me ask you this
who wiped your ass and fed you and did everything for you right up till probly now it sounds to me like,ypur parents who i pity right now at a few of you folks parents had kids that just dont have any sense of humane feeling.
the human being is the most fragile thing in some ways ,its the most depending upon its parents species on earth,we are helpless untill we get to some age that varies in all,most animals drop a kid and few months in off on its own,a baby cant survive but hours without a mother so that silly shit about it being so old dont matter
if that was the case you could abort 3 yr olds,and not be cold blooded killers

some kids always need mommy to tell them when to wipe their noses,
even when so called grown up.(pionts at crackhead)

a baby is a human life the very instant that the egg is fertilized,
a life begins to grow from that lil event and no other.
conception,is a funny word
fetus is a label some folks us to call a lil person still stuck inside a freaky stage mankind must go thru to be mankind
yaw people who think its ok to kill a baby make me want to believe in heaven and hell so they be a warm ass place waiting for ya when your lil life ends,
life is indeed a FUCKING miracle.

[Ed Ward MD]

For all you ignorant chuckleheads out there, just a little fact. BCP's are abortifacients. THEY CAUSE ABORTIONS. Will we make these people murderers also? Gotta love fascists with their flowery BS fascists approaches that do nothing but impose ignorance on others.

Keep fascism out of our lives. Know your fascists.

Ed

My Best to You and Yours,

A Caring Parent Is A Terrible Thing To Waste.
12,000 to 18,000 NCP's snuff themselves every year.
One every 38 minutes. A Caring Parent Is A Terrible Thing To Waste.
Stop the Tyranny Now!

It's 2005!
Do you know where your grandchildren are?
Do you know where your children are?

24,000 of 36,000 MA Restraining Orders Granted for:
Fear of abuse not even an abuse allegation.
Do you know where your grandchildren's children will be?

At least 9 million NCPs are behind on CS.
Estimates of 1/2 a million already jailed.

Ed Ward, MD,
Founder, LA-CRC, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LA-CRC/
edward19(at)cox.net (at) = @ (for the @ crawlers) my email.
http://thepriceofliberty.org/ward.htm
https://www.quickbase.com/db/99r7qj9f?redmsg=E-mail+sent+to+HaversineConsulting (Class action lawsuit state info)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/louisianacivilrightscouncil/ (LA state info)
http://www.FIRMncp.com
Learn about your Family and Individual Constitutional Rights and this governments Constitutional Restrictions and Vote.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Ed+Ward%2C+MD%22+&btnG=Google+Search

5 Women gang rape a criminal and torture him. Only 2 are actually charged. Prison terms given for rape, torture, attempted murder and kidnapping? 4 months. I repeat. 4 MONTHS. Where is Equality? "You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant" of judicial gendercide. After all, according to the DA. "No one was hurt". Mary Franks and "The Cucumber Incident".

5 years of collecting child support and no one even bothered to see if the child was real. Trevino.

FAIR USE NOTICE This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.

[Nullific]

Miracle? Please. You fill a girl with sperm and out comes a baby nine months later. That is no miracle, thats what happens when you have unprotected sex. I suppose shitting is a miracle, too. Wait, no its actually a very common thing that happens after you eat.

NO, ITS A MIRACLE...you wouldn't know unless you've seen my shit, IT LOOKS JUST LIKE JESUS IM TELLING YOU.


5 Women gang rape a criminal and torture him. Only 2 are actually charged. Prison terms given for rape, torture, attempted murder and kidnapping? 4 months. I repeat. 4 MONTHS. That really has nothing to do with babies or fetuses, its likely because hundreds of thousands of drug law offenders need to serve their mandatory minimum sentances and they ran out of room.

[maryjanemama]

Ed Ward, what do you mean birth control pills cause abortions? For your information, I got pregnant with my oldest child while on birth control pills! How would that have been possible?

[Nullific]

Do you conservatives even know what teenage girls do when they miss their periods and can't get an abortion? They punch themselves in the fucking uterus until they start to bleed. Many also smoke cigarettes, drink and do drugs which both physically and mentally damages the developing FETUS so if it were to be born it would be one fucked up little child. In many cases the father will leave or the parents just don't have enough money to support it so the child grows up in poverty and neglect. Why should my tax dollars go to waste feeding and caring for these births that could have been prevented? Why let these kids grow up in hell? Why don't you fucking ask some of these illegimate children born to single mothers how happy they are to be alive?

Keep abortion safe and legal. I am a male and I recognize the womans right to do what she wants to her body...
Let us hear from a female against abortion, I wonder how many are out there.

[maryjanemama]

Until a man gets pregnant he should keep his mouth shut about whether a woman has the right to an abortion. It a right that women have that men cannot control (yet!) and I think that fact is the truth that hurts a lot of men the most. "It's half mine!" he'll shout. Yeah, well until a man pees on a stick and it turns blue, his half doesn't matter.

[Ammie]

w0w im totally shock at the ignorance of sum of u people. U obviously never have had a child. From the day I found out I was having a baby i started to plan for its life and future as if it was already here because in my eyes it was. I felt the life growin inside of me. And it was the greatest Miracle I have ever exsperaniced in my life and those u who dont consider it as such wait til u hear ur own childs heart beat for the first time at about 10 wks or see its cute lil image on the ultra sound and the doc tellin u if its a baby boy or gurl at about 20 wks or the day that u hold ur miracle of life in ur arms for the first time and look down at a peice of urself. Trust me ur feelin will change u wont even care that u just went thru what seemed like 8930243728973 hours of hard labor or the fact that ur starving to death and sleep deprived all u care about is that lil precious baby that ur holdin in ur arms and for that split second the whole world seems to stop and the only thing that matters to u is that baby and its well being. All the planin and waiting u had done for the last night months in antisapation for this lil human life to finally be in ur arms is well worth every lil thing u had to do. I belive personally that a baby is a baby from day one. I have exsperianced my miracle I hope u all do ur to sumday and open ur eyes to things ur not seein. These lil babys cant prtect themselves and its our jobs as their parents to protect them in and outta womb. I have delievered most of my childern way before there due dates but just because i wasnt 9 months pregnant when they were born dont make them anyless of a baby when i was holding there lil bodies in my arms. One on my sons was born in my 26th week of pregnancy unfortunaly he didnt survive but to me he was already real just because i didnt get to exsperiace his brife exsistance on this earth didnt change the way i felt when he was pronounced dead,because for the last few months i had felt his life in side me i felt him move i seen his face on then new 3D ultra sounds i heard his lil heart beatin a mile a min. I held on to every precious moment i had with my baby boy and i consider all of that a miracle. My son ment just as much to me as my other childern and his death affected me just as if it would have been my 2 year old that had died there all lil miracles and i have exsperianced it first hand so dont u guys sit up here and try to tell me its anything other. I hope this ignorance on the unborn "babies" in this world will sumday change although ignorace as been around since the creation of man im sure it wont go anywhere now:confused:.

[Torog]

Howdy Ammie,

I agree with what you're saying,as a father,I felt my daughter moving and kicking,in her mother's womb,I listened to her heartbeat..long before she was born..she was real and a seperate entity-all on her own. I believe that I even know the night she was concieved,I experienced something something I haven't felt since..as I have but one child. It was like I felt my daughter's soul..enter..it was a sensation,that was seperate and distinct,from that of climax. Did you ever feel that ? Even my wife commented on how our experience was different-that night.

God bless you and your children..I'm certain ,that you'll be re-united with your child,that returned home to God..and that you will finally be made whole.

Have a good one...Torog

[Ed Ward MD]

www.omsoul.com/pdfs/K-HTP.pdf

[Ammie]

Howdy Ammie,


God bless you and your children..I'm certain ,that you'll be re-united with your child,that returned home to God..and that you will finally be made whole.

Have a good one...Torog

Thats what got me thru it Torog and even tho many dont belive that i do hole heartly and thats what gets me thru :)



and yes when my childern were concieved i also felt it everytime i told my husband guess what were gunna have another baby in 9 mos and everytime he would say to me I know......weird but true :confused:

[maryjanemama]

www.omsoul.com/pdfs/K-HTP.pdf (http://www.omsoul.com/pdfs/K-HTP.pdf)I could only get the first page to work, I have to download the Adobe update. I will Google birth control pills later and find out for myself.

I'm very confused as to what the whole purpose of this thread is...are we talking about abortion? Or when a fetus is viable? Because that would be a purely scientific question and no one's opinion would matter at all.

I'm prochoice. I am totally and absolutely against late term abortion, though, unless it is necessary to save the woman's life. Just because I am the mother of 3 doesn't mean I don't support another woman's right to make her own decision.

[NowhereMan]

I could only get the first page to work, I have to download the Adobe update. I will Google birth control pills later and find out for myself.

I'm very confused as to what the whole purpose of this thread is...are we talking about abortion? Or when a fetus is viable? Because that would be a purely scientific question and no one's opinion would matter at all.

I'm prochoice. I am totally and absolutely against late term abortion, though, unless it is necessary to save the woman's life. Just because I am the mother of 3 doesn't mean I don't support another woman's right to make her own decision.



abortion is a many faceted subject.
i am all for the fact that the baby is alive when conceaved and any taking of life is killing,be it a embryo,or breathing air.
its alive and its human dna there,it aint known what type yet, normal ,if there is such a thing, or abnormal like defected genetics and missing the ones needed to complete the anatomy or even the brain entirely when growing,damage is done to them by unfit mothers who smoke crack and by natures odds itself,genetic defects like MS and handicapped people from birth are throughout the ages been with us,we call some deseases birth defects.

thus we have birth defects that plague the most vunerable,the babys.
sorry to hear about your loss ammie,lots of young mothers get over stressed bodies and lose kids,its just matter of odds,so many people ask why my kid and i have no clue iether im just glad ive never had that trajic event losing a kid is something no parent should have to go thru,its shockin how so many unfit mothers have healthy kids and you can take some chick who takes care of herself and go by doc orders ect,and still things go so very wrong.
as a man i cant fathom carrying a kid in me,other than in my head the thoughts of my kids are never missing they are constant and forever

some people have some limit to it,the abortion thing tri mesters??
all i can say is this,
the father of that kid has no say so,he cannot make that woman carry his child,he cannot make her NOT carry their child,
yet its his child too and once it is born well it all changes,
he is expected to pay for it,even it the mother and him have nothing to do with each other,too many do not pay anything to help riase thier own kids,
too many dont raise thier own kids period.too many abuse them and the system sure as hell fials them at every turn,

cant say i think anybody has a right to take any life that is not a Direct threat to thier own,or loved ones,

so a health issue would be in my view the only reason for abortion,
not becuase jonny forgot the rubber and susie was ovulating that night.

yes the world is crowded and population grows by leaps and bounds
and then you have some shit come along and kill about 150,000 folks in a day
so all arguements about crowded world and resourses are bullshit
there is enough for all people to eat well and live productive happy lives if greed could be cured.
peace

[maryjanemama]

I have a condition (which has been fixed) that caused my first son to be born too early. He was due on February 3, he was born on October 14. He was at 23/24 weeks gestation. Because of first rate doctors, nurses, surgeons and hospitals he is a healthy 8 year old boy with a few minor learning disabilities and he reacts like an Autistic child to certain stimuli but he is normal for the most part. In some states he could've been aborted at the same gestation he was born at! That is murder without a doubt. If someone cannot decide until she is that far along to abort, then she has no business being a part of the human race, either.

[Lulu]

I have a condition (which has been fixed) that caused my first son to be born too early. He was due on February 3, he was born on October 14. He was at 23/24 weeks gestation. Because of first rate doctors, nurses, surgeons and hospitals he is a healthy 8 year old boy with a few minor learning disabilities and he reacts like an Autistic child to certain stimuli but he is normal for the most part. In some states he could've been aborted at the same gestation he was born at! That is murder without a doubt. If someone cannot decide until she is that far along to abort, then she has no business being a part of the human race, either.
My friend's daughter was born at 22weeks gestation and she's fine, no problems other than she needs glasses. So when I think of babies being aborted at 24 weeks it turns my stomach and I wonder how it can ever be allowed to happen :confused: How can a woman do it to her child and also How can a Doctor perform such a hideous and brutal act :confused: :(

[juggalo420]

My friend's daughter was born at 22weeks gestation and she's fine, no problems other than she needs glasses. So when I think of babies being aborted at 24 weeks it turns my stomach and I wonder how it can ever be allowed to happen :confused: How can a woman do it to her child and also How can a Doctor perform such a hideous and brutal act :confused: :(
would it be less hidious if the child were born and and when the mother cant take care of it its put up in a orphanage until adoption or put into foster care or grow up in poverty, face it most ladies who choose abortions are teenagers. all the pro life people seem to give a s**t about the fetus but when its born they could care less about the welfare of it.

[maryjanemama]

Juggalo (sorry if I spelled it wrong), I am pro choice but only until about 12 weeks, after that if the mother's life is in danger. Waiting longer than that is just selfish as far as I'm concerned. No I would not want the child to grow up in poverty, and I would hope that a woman who couldn't afford a baby, but gave birth anyway, would put the child up for adoption. In my local newspaper there more and more ads everyday from couples wanting to adopt children.

[maryjanemama]

One more thought, I don't know if Lulu is pro choice or not, so I cannot speak for her but what I was trying to say is that in today's day and age a baby can live out of the womb at 22 weeks (not always, of course, as in Ammie's son's case). Can you honestly give me a reason (besides a danger to her health) why a woman who is 6 months pregnant would want an abortion? Purely selfish reasons...if she wanted to terminate the pregnancy why did she wait so long? At that point of gestation, there is a very good possiblity that the child could survive outside of the womb, so isn't that murder? In my eyes, it is.

[F L E S H]

I agree with MJM. Before 12 weeks, it's ok to abort a pregnancy. After that, it's barbaric.

[Lulu]

http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?t=5834&highlight=abortion


On the abortion issue I would have to say for me there is no choice, I too believe the soul is present from the very spark of life. But I also believe that not everyone has the same life as me, or beliefs, or network of support, friends and family etc. so it's not for me to say what's right for anyone other than myself and mine. So I'm Pro-Choice

[Crow Shindle]

Newsflash: Adoption does not automatically = shitty life.

There is always another option to murder. If you have to end a life to save another life that is not murder.

[juggalo420]

Newsflash: Adoption does not automatically = shitty life.

There is always another option to murder. If you have to end a life to save another life that is not murder.
do you also believe masterbation is murder, cause you know a fetus is only a small step up from a sperm.

[Nullific]

Childbirth is no more a miracle then eating food and a turd coming out of your ass.
Bill Hicks