Evolution

[dankkeeper]

I am an atheist myself, but I would like to know what religious people think about evolution and other emerging sciences. I don't see how it can be said that evolution by natural selection isn't real.

All the evidence is there. Looking at fossils you can see vestigial structures, parts that no longer work but worked in an ancestor. For instance, whales having hind legs, humans having tailbones, etc. Look at the embryo of a chicken and the embryo of a human in early stages. They look almost identical. Our cells and the cells of a bacterium have many similar functions. A strand of RNA in bacteria which codes for a specific protein will code for that same protein in a fish or a cat or you.

[Samwhore]

I have no idea where to start, I mean, it's such a complicated and sometimes sacred topic. I can't really tell you where I stand, I guess it just happens.

[Pass That Shit]

Believing in evolution is just that, a belief. It is not a fact. If evolution had been proven why would there be so many against it?
Are there not christian scientists? Like religion, evolution is about believing in it.
With science, you can put bits and pieces together to form your own conclusion. Just like religion. We're all in the same boat.

Grab a paddle. :jointsmile:

[Delta9 UK]

Believing in evolution is just that, a belief. It is not a fact. If evolution had been proven why would there be so many against it?
Are there not christian scientists? Like religion, evolution is about believing in it.
With science, you can put bits and pieces together to form your own conclusion. Just like religion. We're all in the same boat.

Grab a paddle. :jointsmile:

erm hang on there....

Evolution IS a fact - the reason so many are against it is that it fucks up their world view - so they distort facts. It isn't something that requires you to "beleive in it" - the facts are there, ignore them if you wish.

Only in the United States is evolution even "debated" - you can't compare faith and science that's like Apples & Oranges. In UK Schools this is taught as fact and not mixed up with religion - it is science after all - and not faith.

Of course there are Christian scientists - they tend to accept evolution for the most part as they wouldn't be scientists if they ignored facts. They well well "beleive" that god controls evolution - that's faith, there is no evidence of that.

You need to understand the science behind evolution before you can even begin to argue for or against it. Otherwise you are just a fundamentalist arguing over what you beleive is right.

[smoke it]

Believing in evolution is just that, a belief. It is not a fact. If evolution had been proven why would there be so many against it?
Are there not christian scientists? Like religion, evolution is about believing in it.
With science, you can put bits and pieces together to form your own conclusion. Just like religion. We're all in the same boat.

Grab a paddle. :jointsmile:

so, youre saying that we have no facts on either side of the argument. all there is is beleif. good thinking.

[delusionsofNORMALity]

Evolution IS a fact

evolution is theory; theory based on a preponderance of evidence, but theory none the less. just because a theory is held as truth by the majority does not make it fact. the fanatical followers of science would have us believe that reality is so easily defined, but they all seem to lose sight of the difference between fact and theory.

science has taken on the aspect of religion and has become just as dangerous.

[Stemis516]

any1 who says evolution is a proven fact just is uneducated...sure there is evidence, but do we know for sure??? hellllll no


it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution as it does to believe in something else like creationism


keep in mind i believe in a certain theory of evolution so im not biased...im just saying be careful if you think it is proven fact

[Tanarus]

Agreed, while this is a lot more evidence for evolution as a theory rather then creationism, it still isn't proven. Fact and theory are very diffrent

[afghooey]

Evolution has been documented... Obviously Noah didn't bring poodles and chihuahuas onto the ark with him, right? ;P So it's just a matter of speculating about how much evolution has taken place.

[dankkeeper]

evolution is theory;
So is gravity.

And evolution is a proven fact. Why do you think so much money is put into finding new drugs to fight bacteria. They evolve. One years flu strain is not the same as the next years.

"According to a study by Paul Bell, published in the UK Mensa Magazine in 2002, there is an inverse correlation between religiosity and intelligence. A letter published in Nature in 1998 reported a survey suggesting that belief in a personal God or afterlife was at an all time low among the members of the National Academy of Science, only 7.0% of which believed in a personal God as compared to more than 85% of the US general population.[73]"

-from wikipedia

[Tanarus]

yes evolution is a fact, but i was talking about that fact that we evolved out of billions of years of matter. While there is lots of evidence to support that, it still isn't a proven theory.
And yes, gravity is a theory, not a law.

[couch-potato]

And yes, gravity is a theory, not a law.


Only because we don't know what the hell it is yet. It is not compatible with Quantum Physics, but we know that is it there. Evolution is a fact, hell even the Catholic Church has acknowledged it's truth. The amount of evidence for it is overwhelming, there isn't a single field of science out there that is not compatible with evolution and how it works.

[Thepossumdance]

Fact: Knowledge or information based on real occurrences...

We are basing evolution on the real occurrences we have documented, fossils, DNA evidence they all show this phenomenon we call evolution has and is occurring. Therefore, based on the definition of the word, evolution is a fact. Although we can never know for sure if thats the real definition of fact... god might have some super secret definition for it... probably along the lines of "Fact: totally made up bullshit that gets the population to act in accordance with a completely outdated and fucked up set of ethics and morals"

[fishman3811]

So why is intelligent design taught right alongside creationism in American schools?America should get with the rest of the world and stop believing in fairy tales from the bible.Like Noah collected all the animals in the world and put on a huge ark come on do u know how ridiculaus that is.Or like Jesus was born by immaculate conception good god Mary and Joseph were married didnt they have sex?

[Coelho]

god might have some super secret definition for it... probably along the lines of "Fact: totally made up bullshit that gets the population to act in accordance with a completely outdated and fucked up set of ethics and morals"

^^^^Thats much more truth than anybody could even believe. God's wisdom seems folly to the human mind, as human wisdom is folly to God.

Anyway, i think evolution is the way God used to create a lot of species without worrying to create one by one, by hand. He just set up the selection natural laws, the possibility of mutations, and let the things happen by itselves.


PS. 500th post!:rastabanna:

[misspotn]

First off, evolution is NOT a belief/myth/theory. Evolution itself is fact. Evolution does occur. It can be observed in some cases. Mostly, it takes too long to manifest itself (longer than our lifetimes that is). The part that is a theory, is natural selection. Natural selection is the predominant (I'm not actually aware of another explanation) mechanism explaining evolution. Natural selection is not perfect, but it's the best explanation that they've figured so far.

I think it's kind've appalling that people even entertain the thought of 'teaching' intelligent design in schools. There is absolutely not a single shred of evidence or anything supporting that theory. Because that's exactly what it is, a theory. Just because something doesn't jive well with your beliefs doesn't mean you should ignore it. That is ignorance. You can't just decide you think that the sky isn't blue because it doesn't follow your beliefs. And you definately shouldn't try and force ingnorance on anyone else.

[Delta9 UK]

Didn't mean to piss anyone off - but seriously you need to study evolution more to understand it fully.

For those who think its unproven - especially Macroevolution (the bit creationists think there is no proof of LOL) I'm sorry to burst your bubble but there is plenty of evidence for Macroevolution and Microevolution.

Ever wonder why you still have the beginnings of a tail?

Looked at a whale skeleton recently?

Looked at Recombinant DNA viruses?

You know - the ones that leave behind part of their genome INSIDE an organisms DNA - so called endogenous retroviruses? Funny how we have the same HERV-K insertions on exactly the same Chromosomal locations as other primates.

Retroviral DNA is then passed down a germ-line from generation to generation - about 1% of your DNA is old viruses (no shit!) and you share the same Retroviral DNA as other primate ancestors. Dogs for example don't posses these retroviral insertions, but that's fine - we aren't descended from dogs.

Do I need to go on? The case against Creationism is overwhelming to point of embarrasment - educate yourself and then decide - exactly what the church doesn't want you to do.

I can get on a mission about creationists parading their idea as a "theory" and trying to get it into the cirriculum as Science - its frightening to me, as Religious dogma has no place in science imho.

[anangrymailman]

Man, evolution is real, and some of you guys are just gonna have to deal with that if you don't wanna live the rest of your lives blinded. Evolution is straight forward and makes absolutely perfect sense if you bother to learn the details. If the church had said that 1+1=3 for the last couple thousand years, there would be people here arguing that 1+1=2 is only a theory and that we can't be sure if its really correct.

People can beleive what they want. If you wanna beleive that God set up evolution because he was too lazy to create all of the organisms he wanted, then you're entitled to your opinion (which I think is follish btw. How many times are you guys gonna change your story?). But evolution is undeniable. Lets be real here..

[delusionsofNORMALity]

Fact: Knowledge or information based on real occurrences...

We are basing evolution on the real occurrences we have documented, fossils, DNA evidence they all show this phenomenon we call evolution has and is occurring. Therefore, based on the definition of the word, evolution is a fact....

the theory of evolution is based on the interpretation of the remains of real occurrences.

science is of no use if we refuse to obey its simplest laws. though evolution is the most logical and direct interpretation of the evidence, there are other possibilities that cannot be directly disproved. since there seems to be no way to come to a conclusion through direct experience, it may always be nothing more than a theory.

science is the art of questioning everything and if we are willing to blindly believe any one set of interpretations then we do science a disservice by turning it into just another sorrowfully inadequate religion. scientists are not prophets handing down the holy truth from on high. they are merely fallible men, who should be willing to question even their own conclusions and the rest of us should be just as willing to keep an open mind to all of the possibilities, tossing out only those we find to be wholly inadequate.

fact is not determined by consensus. if it were then we would probably be living on a flat earth sitting on the back of a giant turtle, while fiery chariots raced through the heavens and dragons and unicorns capered in the mist. how cool would that be?

[afghooey]

the theory of evolution is based on the interpretation of the remains of real occurrences.

science is of no use if we refuse to obey its simplest laws. though evolution is the most logical and direct interpretation of the evidence, there are other possibilities that cannot be directly disproved. since there seems to be no way to come to a conclusion through direct experience, it may always be nothing more than a theory.

What about the evolutionary processes that have been directly observed? The viruses and bacteria that evolve so rapidly that we can pretty much see it happening before our eyes? What about instances of observed speciation? Or all the plants and animals that we've evolved through selective breeding? How 'direct' of an experience do you need, exactly?

[Thepossumdance]

i was about to say, fossil evidence wasnt the example given.

also Afghooey... that was such an awesome strain when i first started to get shit from the club (still awesome now i just havent had it in a while)

[Coelho]

People can beleive what they want. If you wanna beleive that God set up evolution because he was too lazy to create all of the organisms he wanted, then you're entitled to your opinion (which I think is follish btw. How many times are you guys gonna change your story?). But evolution is undeniable. Lets be real here..

Well... i didnt mean God was too lazy, even if it seems by what ive written. My argument is: What is easier, to create an entire, adult tree, leaf by leaf, branch by branch, or create just a small seed, which contains in itself all what is needed to it become a tree by itself?

For me, it seems to create just a seed requires a far deeper wisdom and knowledge. Because creating a seed implies in knowing all the processes that will make the seed to become a tree, so when you create a seed, indirectly you are creating also a small plant, a small tree, then a complete tree. All of it contained in a single and small seed.

And i think the same about the evolution. It would be far easier create all the living beings, one by one, already ready for live in the most specialized way. But God, with His infinite wisdom, knew how to make an way for all the living beings appear by itselves, and improve by itselves. He just allowed the living things to mutate themselves, and the hardness of the life select the better ones. So simple, so wise. And so subtle we are tempted to disregard His role in all this.

[Coelho]

the theory of evolution is based on the interpretation of the remains of real occurrences.

science is of no use if we refuse to obey its simplest laws. though evolution is the most logical and direct interpretation of the evidence, there are other possibilities that cannot be directly disproved. since there seems to be no way to come to a conclusion through direct experience, it may always be nothing more than a theory.

science is the art of questioning everything and if we are willing to blindly believe any one set of interpretations then we do science a disservice by turning it into just another sorrowfully inadequate religion. scientists are not prophets handing down the holy truth from on high. they are merely fallible men, who should be willing to question even their own conclusions and the rest of us should be just as willing to keep an open mind to all of the possibilities, tossing out only those we find to be wholly inadequate.

fact is not determined by consensus. if it were then we would probably be living on a flat earth sitting on the back of a giant turtle, while fiery chariots raced through the heavens and dragons and unicorns capered in the mist. how cool would that be?

Though im not against the theory of the evolution, I could not put it in better words. Science should not be trusted with a religious fervour. Science is science, not a religion.

[Stemis516]

look up the difference between microevolution and macroevolution

micro has been proven, yes

but macro an entirely different story, we cannot recreate it in a lab nor can we prove it

there is a big difference between a bacteria evoliving so it can live against an antibiotic and an ape changing into a human and becoming intelligent

[afghooey]

In evolutionary biology today, macroevolution is used to refer to any evolutionary change at or above the level of species. It means at least the splitting of a species into two (speciation, or cladogenesis, from the Greek meaning "the origin of a branch", see Fig. 1) or the change of a species over time into another (anagenetic speciation, not nowadays generally accepted [note 1]). Any changes that occur at higher levels, such as the evolution of new families, phyla or genera, are also therefore macroevolution, but the term is not restricted to those higher levels. It often also means long-term trends or biases in evolution of higher taxonomic levels.
(Source: Macroevolution: Its definition, Philosophy and History (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/macroevolution.html))

Observed Instances of Speciation (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html)

More information about Evolution:
TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy (http://www.talkorigins.org/)

[Delta9 UK]

look up the difference between microevolution and macroevolution

micro has been proven, yes

but macro an entirely different story, we cannot recreate it in a lab nor can we prove it

there is a big difference between a bacteria evoliving so it can live against an antibiotic and an ape changing into a human and becoming intelligent

I gave no less than 3 examples of Macroevolution a few posts up.

Seriously guys - go study molecular biology and genetics for a few years with some biochemistry and microbiology thrown in and we will have us a bunch of converts ;) Mitochondrial DNA anyone?

So again! Macroevolution is REAL and can be demostrated - I can give you a whole bunch of examples but you will still believe whatever the hell you want. The clearest one in my mind (and the xample I used) is the fact that we share the same left over virus infections as the primates we are descended from.

In fact there are tons of examples which make creationism total bunk - beleive what you want though. Evolution has evidence - creationism is a nice idea but it sure isn't science and shouldn't be taught as such.

[jdmarcus59]

Its that never ending qustion, if you dont belive in creation

then you belive that somthing came from nothing,

if you saw the golden gate bridge, and I told you that it was not

made, but it just apeared one day, would you belive me? of course not

that would not make any sence, and who would belive that? no one.
when we drive through the city we all know that every thing we see

had a builder. but by beliving that it does not project any threat to are
own personal belife system. but when you say that God made the heavens

and the earth, then that makes us subject to His set of rules, and none of
us want to be under someone elses authroty, we want to be are own man

(are woman), and live are lives how we see fit. the sad part of this hole thing

is, is that most of us dont understand how are why God works in are lives
most people belive that God is a kill joy, but what He has written is for are

own good and happiness. no something did not come nothing, something came
from somthing

[jdmarcus59]

erm hang on there....

Evolution IS a fact - the reason so many are against it is that it fucks up their world view - so they distort facts. It isn't something that requires you to "beleive in it" - the facts are there, ignore them if you wish.

Only in the United States is evolution even "debated" - you can't compare faith and science that's like Apples & Oranges. In UK Schools this is taught as fact and not mixed up with religion - it is science after all - and not faith.

Of course there are Christian scientists - they tend to accept evolution for the most part as they wouldn't be scientists if they ignored facts. They well well "beleive" that god controls evolution - that's faith, there is no evidence of that.

You need to understand the science behind evolution before you can even begin to argue for or against it. Otherwise you are just a fundamentalist arguing over what you beleive is right.
Iam sorry my friend but you have no idea what you are talking about,
and you do not have your facts straight

[Pass That Shit]

And who's ERM? :jointsmile:

I believe in the big bang. God said, Let there be light.

[jdmarcus59]

And who's ERM? :jointsmile:

I believe in the big bang. God said, Let there be light.

what is erm?

[afghooey]

jdmarcus59, what about the idea of evolution gives you the impression that something is made out of nothing? Can you please explain what you mean, as I'm not sure I understand?

No one arranged you piece by piece, as a man constructs a bridge. You evolved from two tiny cells. But that doesn't mean that you came out of nothing.

[jdmarcus59]

jdmarcus59, what about the idea of evolution gives you the impression that something is made out of nothing? Can you please explain what you mean, as I'm not sure I understand?

No one arranged you piece by piece, as a man constructs a bridge. You evolved from two tiny cells. But that doesn't mean that you came out of nothing.

where did the two cells come from?

[afghooey]

Well, they didn't come out of nowhere, did they? ;) They came from other cells.

Where it all began, whether the first cell (or cells) were created by some external force (IE: God) or occured naturally by a process that we don't completely grasp (but have some knowledge of), is completely irrelevent to the fact that evolution is happening. We know that our DNA, the information that determines who we are, is constantly changing, and evolution by definition means just that: genetic change from generation to generation.

[Delta9 UK]

Well, they didn't come out of nowhere, did they? ;) They came from other cells.

Where it all began, whether the first cell (or cells) were created by some external force (IE: God) or occured naturally by a process that we don't completely grasp (but have some knowledge of), is completely irrelevent to the fact that evolution is happening. We know that our DNA, the information that determines who we are, is constantly changing, and evolution by definition means just that: genetic change from generation to generation.

Thanks afghooey - that was a lot more polite than the post I was writing :stoned:

That sums it up to be fair.

[jdmarcus59]

Well, they didn't come out of nowhere, did they? ;) They came from other cells.

Where it all began, whether the first cell (or cells) were created by some external force (IE: God) or occured naturally by a process that we don't completely grasp (but have some knowledge of), is completely irrelevent to the fact that evolution is happening. We know that our DNA, the information that determines who we are, is constantly changing, and evolution by definition means just that: genetic change from generation to generation.
that would be my point, where did the cells come from, as you said mabey
from God are some where else. and if they did come from God then we have to put creation into the begining of life, as in God created.

[Stemis516]

how come no other animals or species have evolved into intelligent beings? did we just get lucky?


i humans havent touched every inch of this planent by any means....ud think that some other being would evolve and become intelligent and possibly challenge us

[afghooey]

that would be my point, where did the cells come from, as you said mabey
from God are some where else. and if they did come from God then we have to put creation into the begining of life, as in God created.

Right. I agree that evolution doesn't necessarily preclude creationism.
But at the same time, evolution (despite the fact that we know it exists) seems to contradict a literal interpretation of the book of Genesis.

But perhaps the book of Genesis is not meant to be taken literally at all. Actually, there seems to be considerable evidence that it isn't meant to be taken literally.

Consider this, if you're willing, with an open mind:
http://www.pranaspirituallifecentre.com.au/genesis.htm

[Stemis516]

actually any person who is educated about anything to do with the bible knows that genesis is not literal

[afghooey]

Then why is there such vehement denial of evolution among creationists, when indeed evolution is practically undeniable?

As I mentioned, evolution doesn't preclude creation, nor does it preclude intelligent design. The only thing it contradicts is a literal interpretation of Genesis.

[Stemis516]

ok well then are u familiar with theistic evolution? thats more in tune with my own personal belief.....i just dont accept evolution as 100% fact, thats all...i dont deny it

[afghooey]

The link I posted is actually quite a good example of theistic evolution in practice. :3 (The compatibility of religious teachings with scientific ones).

And, just out of curiosity... do you accept anything as 100% fact? And if so, what?

[JMccorkle122]

Theory = A Idea that is supported by facts and logic

A Theory is not a irational idea or guess its a scientific idea. Einstiens Famouse eqaution e=mc2 is a theory. But we all know Mass and energy are the same in terms and logic ( MATH ) proves it. Yes evolution is a theory but it is not a uneducated guess and is prob true up to 95%

And how do u think u can get a cold more the once..... and why do u think we cant cure any viruses........ THEY EVOLVED

[Stemis516]

The link I posted is actually quite a good example of theistic evolution in practice. :3 (The compatibility of religious teachings with scientific ones).

And, just out of curiosity... do you accept anything as 100% fact? And if so, what?


o sure, mostly math and your basic physics and things of that sort....and the fact that i look out my window and i see a buliding, i know the buliding is there and everything of that sort

honestly, i still have beliefs though, just because something isnt proven in my opinion doesnt mean i do not, will not, or can not believe in it.....the point im stressing is that there are certain things which you like to call science, that i believe takes some faith to believe....any teacher or professor ive ever had in bio, physics, chemistry, any class u name it has taught evolution as a theory...something that is possible, even probable, but yet not accpeted 100% in the scientific community....sure, its accepted widely as the most logical theory as to how we got here, but it isnt accepted as a pure fact

im just very skeptical....i have my beliefs (theistic evolution for example) and even though i do believe in them, im wise enough to realize that i may be incorrect and another theory is possible...thats all

i think its unwise to just accept things the way they are just because someone says so or it backs ur personal belief, but u have to understand im not biased towards any group of people.....i think the athiest who accepts evolution as 100% fact is just as unwise as the born again who accepts genesis or any other part of the bible for that matter as 100% fact....it just appears like im playing devils advocate, well frankly because i am, and its just the audience im dealing with

[jdmarcus59]

how come no other animals or species have evolved into intelligent beings? did we just get lucky?


i humans havent touched every inch of this planent by any means....ud think that some other being would evolve and become intelligent and possibly challenge us
god said let us make man in are own inmage, not in form, but that man

would have a living soul, a eternal soul, animals do not.

[Stemis516]

thanks but id rather hear and athiests response

[jdmarcus59]

thanks but id rather hear and athiests response
you mean you would rather hear what YOU want to hear.:)

[Stemis516]

actually if uve been reading my posts, i happen to agree with you on most things, and im not an athiest

but nice try

[afghooey]

how come no other animals or species have evolved into intelligent beings? did we just get lucky?


i humans havent touched every inch of this planent by any means....ud think that some other being would evolve and become intelligent and possibly challenge us

Actually, there are other animal species that exhibit great intelligence. Whales and dolphins are among the best examples. The only reason that they haven't advanced technologically is because they have had no evolutionary need to do so (and because they don't have opposable thumbs). But they have relatively complex language and behaviors.

Elephants are another example. They, too, have a complex language, communicating through low-frequency infrasound that can't be picked up by human ears. They have been shown to exhibit many emotions including joy, fear, and even grief and mourning over the death of family members (which would implicate that they also experience love). Other primates, specifically the great apes, have shown such signs of intelligence, as well.

To say that humans are the only intelligent beings on this planet seems a bit egocentric, IMO.

[Nor.Cal Smoker]

Fact: Knowledge or information based on real occurrences...

We are basing evolution on the real occurrences we have documented, fossils, DNA evidence they all show this phenomenon we call evolution has and is occurring. Therefore, based on the definition of the word, evolution is a fact. Although we can never know for sure if thats the real definition of fact... god might have some super secret definition for it... probably along the lines of "Fact: totally made up bullshit that gets the population to act in accordance with a completely outdated and fucked up set of ethics and morals"
__________________

Well Said, Possumdance

[Stemis516]

Actually, there are other animal species that exhibit great intelligence. Whales and dolphins are among the best examples. The only reason that they haven't advanced technologically is because they have had no evolutionary need to do so (and because they don't have opposable thumbs). But they have relatively complex language and behaviors.

Elephants are another example. They, too, have a complex language, communicating through low-frequency infrasound that can't be picked up by human ears. They have been shown to exhibit many emotions including joy, fear, and even grief and mourning over the death of family members (which would implicate that they also experience love). Other primates, specifically the great apes, have shown such signs of intelligence, as well.

To say that humans are the only intelligent beings on this planet seems a bit egocentric, IMO.




thats fair but how can u possibly justify setting the intelligence we have equal to the intelligence of monkeys, whales, dolphins or whatever...sure the examples you listed show that certain animals, probably most animals, have some form of intelligence, i never meant to say they had none at all but its clear that on some level they are far below humans and evolution doesnt explain it because it would make alot more sense under evolution if more than 1 species progressed as much as we have

and ya humans may not be the only intelligent beings, but we certainly are by far the most intelligent...so are u just saying we lucked out because we evolved first??? im curious as to how evolution attempts to explain this and human nature

[afghooey]

Though it's impossible to know the exact events that lead to the evolution of human intelligence (evidence like fossils don't really leave us many clues in this area), one could speculate that it was our specific physiology that lead to our becoming more intelligent, probably in combination with environmental factors such as climate change (intelligence can be an important key to adaptation).

There are other theories too, such as that there is a 'critical mass' of neurons which must be acheived in order for an animal to reach a human-like level of consciousness. If that's the case, then other mammals simply haven't had an evolutionary need to meet this critical mass, but that doesn't mean that the potential isn't there.

[Delta9 UK]

im curious as to how evolution attempts to explain this and human nature

Then to be honest you should really learn more about it rather than trying to debate with people over a topic you don't understand fully.

Earlier on you called me uneducated (by default) as I stated evolution was fact - but to be honest I am degree educated in Genetics and Microbiology so that's not really accurate ;). I wouldn't normally bring that up but this thread has encouraged me to think differently and be blunt about a few things.

I'm sort of surprised and a bit alarmed at the sort of responses these threads get - here in the UK the scientific culture is very different and also the general mentality towards issues of religion are very much subdued. The fact this thread is even in "Spirituality" is kind of ironic, but anyway.

From age 15 in the UK when we first started learning this in biology we also discussed creationism and earler "ideas" of how evolution worked e.g. "Are giraffes tall because they stretch a lot" that kind of stuff. We picked at the flaws in Darwins theory, how things have changed and how intelligent design fits in. We really had a pretty holistic approach - after considering all the arguments evoltion comes up trumps and doesn't require faith.

What you are really debating is the origin of life on this planet and NOT evolution. That is a whole different story. I personally think its time that evolution was just accepted in the U.S as the evidence is overwhelming and really there is no logical justification to teach creationism as a "theory" or masquerade it as science in any way. I would lose my job before teaching crap like that.

[Delta9 UK]

its clear that on some level they are far below humans and evolution doesnt explain it because it would make alot more sense under evolution if more than 1 species progressed as much as we have


Well a few species DID evolve alongside us. The Neanderthal would be a good example. Looking at the fossil record we most likely out competed them for food, shelter and were better hunters. We may even have killed them off - literally.

Eating meat made a big difference to our brain development and to be honest we were driven like any species to develop faster. Natural selection will always favour the adaptive intelligent organism that's pretty obvious.

We didn't just "luck out" we are the result of a 4.6billion year old planet supporting life.

[Frank_The_Tank]

Ahhhhh. the discovery of early humanoids. Science 1 / religion 0

[hazetwostep]

stemis...

very true... micro cannot be argued since we see it and it simply follows logic... stronger genes eventually will prevail.

macro is another story... science does not claim to know how complex life as we know it began. go check it out at the Museum of Natural History's "Walk the Big Bang" exhibit... just was there the other day.

[Pass That Shit]

what is erm?

This question should be for Delta9. I don't know what he meant. He's the one who brought it up earlier in this thread.



What scientific proof is there that the LORD is not coming back? If he said it, shall it not come to pass?

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

[xblackdogx]

evolution, deals with the changes that one OBSERVES in animals. THESE changes are declared "facts" due to the fact that one can SEE differences. But when we take into account that anything we perceive and would declare to be a "living, solid thing" is just energy being processed and projected into the back of the brain indicates that SEEING is not proof of anything. Quantum physics has provided evidence to support that "PHYSICAL" things don't exist, which would make any transformation done "by the eyes" a result of a change from the brain....
so if you can BELIEVE in evolution, your brain will surely attract the infinite possibilities in nothingness to provide you a PICTURE of "evolution".

[jdmarcus59]

actually if uve been reading my posts, i happen to agree with you on most things, and im not an athiest

but nice try

no insult intended

[darth stoner]

With science, you can put bits and pieces together to form your own conclusion. Just like religion. We're all in the same boat.

Grab a paddle. :jointsmile:

No, with science you put bits and pieces together by gathering evidence and making experiments that yield predictable results.

With religion you believe because you were told to, and refer back to ${HOLY_BOOK} to hold all your beliefs true.

Not quite the same thing.

[Coelho]

We basically perceive physical matter in its true form (with our physical senses) and this can be proven mathematically

Really?? Well, though im not a mathematic, i have enough knowledge in math and would like very much too see such demonstration.

Theorem:
Starting from x+0=x, x.1=x, x+y=y+x, ...
Proof:
...
... (lots of math here)
...
So, we conclude the outside world is real. Q.E.D.

Would???


Some people have perfect vision and perfect pitch and do see the world as it really is,

I dont think so... for one, our senses are pretty limited. For example, our vision only can see a small strip of the electromagnetic spectrum, that we call light and colors. But there is a large range of light (or rather electromagnetical waves), like ultra-violet, infra-red, x-ray, radio waves, etc, we cant see. And they are as part of the world as the colors are. So, even the vision of the perfectest people is a fragmented vision. We see only a very small part of the world. Thus we sould not trust so much in this fragmented vision, as if it were the vision of everything thats exist.
Our perception of the world is heavily limited by our senses and our mind, so what we see as "the world" in only the very small part of it that was filtered and understood by our mind. Not the world itself.
Note that I gave a materialistic argument above. I only talked about "physical" things.

But the quote below goes even further:


But when we take into account that anything we perceive and would declare to be a "living, solid thing" is just energy being processed and projected into the back of the brain indicates that SEEING is not proof of anything. Quantum physics has provided evidence to support that "PHYSICAL" things don't exist, which would make any transformation done "by the eyes" a result of a change from the brain....

And I agree completly.

[PureEvil760]

We were just put here. Atlantis was one of 3 of the first human civilizations which was around during the time of the dinosaurs, Atlantis was built in the water because of the dinosaurs. I still dont believe we were just put here, but thats what I heard from a good resource.