How words constrict us...

[afghooey]

More and more I find that the English language, while allowing freedom of expression to some degree, also creates a mire of symbols that can often be confused with their meanings. It also tends to give a misconstrued sense of significance which can restrict our thought processes.

The words we use and the definitions which we deem to be official for them take precedence over those things that we can not put into words, and so we regard them as more significant. But as we have evolved, we've discovered that just because we may not be able to grasp something does not mean that it's any less significant.

The word 'life' is an excellent example. What is life? The dictionary's definition deliniates boundaries that separate life from non-life; metabolism, growth, reproduction. But do these attributes really separate life from non-life? If we are the ones drawing the line, who's to say where we chose to draw it? What if I decide to define 'life' as the ability to react? After all, aren't we just a more complex level of reaction than the mingling of quarks and atoms and molecules?

What about the words like 'death', 'love', 'hate', 'god', 'satan', 'sin', 'good', 'evil', 'soul', 'mind', 'thought', 'justice', 'freedom'?

In science, breaking things up into categories is essential; actually, that's about all science really is, a method of dissassembling things into parts to better examine them. But when it comes to spiritual matters, breaking things up is not always helpful; in fact, i'd say if anything it can be a great hinderance to seeing 'the big picture'.

Just remember, it's YOUR authority that creates these definitions, it's YOUR choice to accept them that makes them 'official'.

Don't be afraid to redefine, or even UNdefine your world.

[Beano]

LSD is a helluva drug apparently.
:p

[Bond]

Yes, and I find when I smoke marijuana it brings out My spiritual self. thats why I love it, i love life.

Hopefully our minds connected there.. I do not think they did...maybe.
also With this info you can talk to dogs.:hippy:

[afghooey]

LSD is a helluva drug apparently.
:p

Never done it. :3 Though I can say that certain psychoactive substances have definitely contributed to my thoughts... :thumbsup:

[Coelho]

The deepness of this subject of the words is far greater than we think... afghooey, i think you saw just the tip of the iceberg when you wrote this post.

In reality, all our view of world, all our notion of 'reality' is based upon words. All the time, we are percieving the world, and extracting from this perceptions complete units which can be described by words. Like, im seeing a lot of colorful dots, then my brain converts this colorful dots to the perception of a keyboard, a computer screen, and so... Then, what we call 'outside world' is only the part of the world that is perceived by us which can be understood in terms of words.

Thats why is hard to describe how feels to be high for a people never have been high. There is no words to explain exactly the feelings, so the people must be high to understand how it feels. And, note that for the people that never has been high, there is a lot of feelings that simply not exist. He/She never felt it before, so it would live an entire life without knowing this king of feeling actually exist, so, for it, that feelings simply does not exist. Only after it smokes, it learns how is to be stoned, and have a new set of feelings.

The same happens with the world in general... there is a lot of feelings and perceptions of the world we dont even know exists, because we never experienced it, and have no words to describe it. Or rather, maybe there is words, but they only make sense for those who experienced it.

We all keep talking with ourselves into our minds. All the time. So, our mind is, all the time, being feeded with thoughts which came from words. So, all the time, we only know/see/percieve things which are described by words. Everything else is filtered, and does not enter in our perception.

So, learning to shut up this internal dialogue is the key for a different peception of the world. If we can percieve the world and just percieve it, without categorizing our perceptions in things described by words, we can percieve the world of a very different way. I accomplished it a few times, after using weed+butane. My mind felt like an complete silence, i would just hear the outside noises, without recognizing them, just listening. I would see the things, and they were the same, but i would not recognize them as i do everyday. It was very very weird... i cant describe, only can say it was somewhat frightening, cause everything was unfamiliar (even if the things were the same). But the shock of knowing our normal way of percieving the world in not the only one, but just one in lots of anothers, was worth the fright.

[Polymirize]

Great post. I don't say this very often, but you should check out a book called the Tractatus by Ludwig Wittgenstein.

Pretty much, I suppose I agree with you. Except for that part about science, because in my opinion science, just as spirituality, is dedicated to seeing and understanding the big picture, for all the deconstruction of it's method.

That's probably just a matter of definition though, which is, of course, exactly what this is all about.


So let's leave the words out of it completely, and talk about communication instead.

I mean, isn't that the point?

[afghooey]

I don't disagree with you, Polymirize. Science has advanced us greatly, and I would say that it is indeed dedicated to helping us see and understand the big picture -- but sadly, a lot of people seem to forget that science is a tool and a method, and instead regard it as a way of life (Have you ever heard someone proclaim that they believe in science rather than god?).

It's surprisingly easy to become convinced that these separations that science deliniates are real. It's the source of materialism, of the existence of separate 'objects'. It doesn't have to be that way, though; as you said, it's all a matter of definition (or lack thereof).

As for communication -- yep, you hit the nail on the head. For all the flaws of the English language, I'm not suggesting we abolish it, not by a long shot. But I think it's important to step outside of these symbols, to determine whether what they point to is really what we mean by them, and to recognize that there is great significance even in those things that we can't name and categorize.

We will probably never come to a complete agreement about what each and every word means (even though the dictionary tries to do just that), but I think continually questioning and redefining the way we think about certain things, though it sounds potentially confusing, is a step in the right direction for improving our communication.

I think one of the biggest problems with language in an official context is that, much like science, it's a bureaucracy -- in categorization and efficiency it excels, but when it comes to constant change, or less tangible matters (such as spiritual and emotional ones), it falls terribly short. Like I said before, the dictionary tries and often fails to bring us to agreement about what certain words mean, because human beings don't fit conveniently into one mold. Every person's experiences and perceptions about the world are different, so it's silly to expect every symbol we create to be compatible with every perception.

[krazy chino]

nice post well i agree wit all of you so ima get off the subject i was reading about how languages are becoming extint they say that probably in 100 yrs or less we'll only have like a dozen languages throughout the whole world the only way to stop this is to pass down all the languages we know to our children cuz usually people only teach their kids one certain language...just thought it was interesting

[Polymirize]

I think I disagree about the tangibility of language. I'd suggest that that particular flaw in our language is the result of materialism, and not the other way around. If you look at different languages, you might find that they have the ability to express concepts we can only vaguely grasp in our own. I think the interesting thing about language is how it models our conceptualization of reality.

The classic example for this is the line about how the eskimos have over 50 words to describe ice and snow. And actually, that's false, they don't have that many. However, even if we say the number is only ten, ten categories for different types of snow grants a whole new ability to interpreting the world.

Some people see snow. Skiers (this is such a better example come to think of it...) may see powder, or corn, or sierra cement.

The ability to make these distinctions aid an individual dramatically in the navigation of their reality. You can almost trace the specializations of certain ethnic groups back through their language, seeing where they become most categorized and prolific.

When you look into the meditative traditions, you'll find that they have a 5000+ year history of categorizing various states of mind/being. I just find that interesting I suppose...

So what do you think, does language model our reality? Or construct it?

[Coelho]

So what do you think, does language model our reality? Or construct it?

Both. We construct our model of reality (the "scheme", or "map" of the outside world that exists into our mind) using concepts teached by us by means of the language.

"Everyone who comes in contact with a child is a teacher who incessantly describes the world to him, until the moment when the child is capable or percieving the world as it is described." - D.J.M.- JtI

And after it, we learn how to filter all our perceptions to fit they in terms of the language.

When we see snow, we look at it just enough to recognize what we are seeing as snow. The level of details needed to recognize snow as snow is very low, but as for us it is enough, we only percieve the snow with this low level of detail.
Im sure we simply cant see all the details of snow that a Skimo can see, because their eyes/mind are trained to look at a lot more of details of snow, and recognize it as snow-good-to-walk, or hard-packed-ice, or whatever.

In other words, our mind seeks things known to it in the middle of the chaos that is the total perception, recognize that known things, and discards the perceptions that are unknown to it, so the world outside can be "mapped" into our mind in terms of known concepts.

For example, if an inhabitant of a tribe without contact with the civilization sees a plane, for example, he will try to understand it in terms known by his own perception, so he will understand it as a "metallic bird", or something like. His mind will force the perception to fit in terms of things known to him, even if it makes no sense (cause we know there is not mettalic birds).
And as the concept of "plane" is a thing utterly unknown to him, know the "truth" about his perception will make still less sense than believe he really saw a mettalic bird.

Or, as our mind thinks: "Better a known folly than a unknown truth". Sad but true...

[Frank_The_Tank]

coelho your are absolutely right i was going to write the same thing about the tribesmen seeing a plane. I would honestly do anything to see something that my brain cannot perceve. Just thinking about the thought of seeing something that my brain cannot perceve blows my mind when im baked because i kno that nothing i think of as unable to perceve is really unable to perceve because i thought of it. It is the most fucked up thing i could ever think about and it gives me goosebumps thinking about it. But i am thinking to myself about what coelho said about the tribesmen seeing the plane. Is it possible that if you cannot perceve something can you acually see it? We can never experience what those tribesmen experienced when they first seen a plane because today we share worldwide connections with the entire earth where all technology is shared openly between cultures. That is a different story if we are visited by other lifeforms. Who know what they have invented and the culture they have. Who knows? im baked so ... hope you understand lol

[OnionsOfLove]

First of all, nice post.

What about the differences between written and oral communication? I think the biggest gap of understanding comes between what someone says and what someone hears - there are SO many factors that contribute to meaning. Its much easier to write down a very complex idea than it is to say. But like Coelho said in his first post, understanding is really based on personal experiences and perceptions. No matter how well the concept of planes is described, a tribesman will continue to understand them in the terms that he already knows. He wont truly understand until he experiences it for himself.

(the "scheme", or "map" of the outside world that exists into our mind)


Wouldnt mapping also exist in varying degrees in the mind of any organism? Making sense out of the world by building mental maps and schemes and gaining a higher order of perception is probably an evolutionary process.

:stoned:

[afghooey]

Alas! If only more people would take the time to look beyond that lowest level of perception that Coelho mentioned, to study their surroundings beyond what it takes to name and categorize what they see. There is so much more! All the energy around us, though we try to smooth away the inconsistencies with our best attempt at order and uniformity, is changing. Each 'object' that we look at, label, and just as quickly disregard is a wonderously unique structure that will never be recreated in exactly the same way. Each cloud in the sky and rock on the ground is part of a web of ever-transforming complexity that we will never fully percieve or appreciate.

Chaos can be frightening. In a world that never stops changing, we can never feel totally safe. But where we sacrifice our safety, we gain something much, much more wonderful -- the incredible beauty of endless possibilities. There is eternity in the ever-changing, there is life in decay, and there is creation in destruction. We just have to take the time to look beyond these symbols that we've created, to acknowledge and appreciate (as well as we're able to) all the amazing things of which we percieve only a tiny fraction.

[Xhoshi]

You're right. Words are just symbols. We make an association between those symbols, which are a stimulus, to ideas and objects, abstract and concrete. We hear or read a word or a part of speech and we make the connection between the stimulus and the thought it conjures. Everyone has different connotations for language.

But even so, I believe all knowledge stems from language.

[Polymirize]

Alas! If only more people would take the time to look beyond that lowest level of perception that Coelho mentioned, to study their surroundings beyond what it takes to name and categorize what they see. There is so much more! All the energy around us, though we try to smooth away the inconsistencies with our best attempt at order and uniformity, is changing. Each 'object' that we look at, label, and just as quickly disregard is a wonderously unique structure that will never be recreated in exactly the same way. Each cloud in the sky and rock on the ground is part of a web of ever-transforming complexity that we will never fully percieve or appreciate.

Chaos can be frightening. In a world that never stops changing, we can never feel totally safe. But where we sacrifice our safety, we gain something much, much more wonderful -- the incredible beauty of endless possibilities. There is eternity in the ever-changing, there is life in decay, and there is creation in destruction. We just have to take the time to look beyond these symbols that we've created, to acknowledge and appreciate (as well as we're able to) all the amazing things of which we percieve only a tiny fraction.



I think that all sounds fairly good. At the very least, its very emotive... But can you try using fewer words?

[afghooey]

Ah, are you just poking fun at me now? ;)

Yeah, sometimes my emotions do tend to get the better of me when I'm writing these posts, and I get carried away. (Didn't mean to be overly dramatic). And I'd sum it up in fewer words, but that would take more words, so I'll just leave it alone.

[Coelho]

I would honestly do anything to see something that my brain cannot perceve. Just thinking about the thought of seeing something that my brain cannot perceve blows my mind when im baked because i kno that nothing i think of as unable to perceve is really unable to perceve because i thought of it.

Well... there is a lot of people that claims they have saw things life UFO's, spirits, angels, etc, and i believe some of this people (not all, but some) really saw something completly foreign to our everyday reality, and tried to render it to some familiar thing, so the seeming absurdity of some descriptions. ("A mettalic bird? are you crazy??? ")
Anyway, there is a lot of ways to percieve things unknown to our everyday mind. I would suggest a gb-hit of the strongest weed :jointsmile:, or a dose of some psychedelic (i wont mention the names of them explicitly because i dont want this post deleted... but you know what i mean ;) ), or some meditation. Doing so, soon you will discover new worlds unthinked before...



I think that all sounds fairly good. At the very least, its very emotive... But can you try using fewer words?

Well... i think its OK... althought it is indeed very emotive, i liked it very much!
Afghooey does you were stoned when did write that? I ask it because when im stoned i can percieve the world in a way FAR more detailed than when im sober. For me seems i became a children again, and im seeing the world as if it were brand new... everything is so interesting, so a novelty... for me the weed brings back the forgotten wonder of just looking at the things as they are, instead just recognizing what i see, giving it a name, and forgeting it immediatly after.

[Polymirize]

Afghooey does you were stoned when did write that? I ask it because when im stoned i can percieve the world in a way FAR more detailed than when im sober. For me seems i became a children again, and im seeing the world as if it were brand new... everything is so interesting, so a novelty... for me the weed brings back the forgotten wonder of just looking at the things as they are, instead just recognizing what i see, giving it a name, and forgeting it immediatly after.

does you were? I suspect you were fairly stoned yourself. When you have a moment of clarity, I'd be interested in hearing how you manage to see the world in a more detailed way, without simply giving it more names.

Traditionally, it seems that that is what detail is. And I don't see how you'd be getting away from conceptualizations and language by doing so...

[afghooey]

Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think that English is Coelho's first language. From his flag, I would guess Portuguese?

And I don't mean to be presumptuous either, but I think I have an idea of what he is talking about in seeing more details while stoned.

Take a look at the palm of your hand, for example. You can keep looking closer and closer, and for each new 'thing' you see, you can attach a word. First, 'palm'... you look closer, and you see all these little 'wrinkles'. And if you looked much closer, you'd see 'skin cells', the parts of those cells, the molecules that compose them, and so on. But if you only look closely enough to recognize the wrinkles in your palm as wrinkles, or the molecules as molecules, you miss a lot of detail.

While you could name each line, each cell, and each molecule that you see by its unique position in space, doing so isn't at all necessary in order to experience them.. in fact, most words just seem to be generalizations, a way of simplifying our perceptions in order to more easily communicate them.

It may be impossible for us to get away from conceptualizations, but not necessarily language. I know I have experienced in times of tranquility, often while high but not always, that I'm not thinking in terms of words at all. There's no internal dialogue. And for that reason I find myself more able to recognize details because I don't have the distraction of words. I haven't really learned how to 'shut off' my internal dialogue by choice, as it seems the more I try to the less I can.. but when I'm particularly relaxed and often while I'm drawing or painting, it's definitely easier to slip into that state.

[Coelho]

does you were? I suspect you were fairly stoned yourself. When you have a moment of clarity, I'd be interested in hearing how you manage to see the world in a more detailed way, without simply giving it more names.

Traditionally, it seems that that is what detail is. And I don't see how you'd be getting away from conceptualizations and language by doing so...

Well... Afghooey did understand and explained almost everything i would about the subject in his post.
And he is right, portuguese is my first (and only) language. I try to write in english, but im sure there is a lot of things i write can sound absurd. Pity i cant see the absurds i write (as for me they seem ok), cause i think it would be hilarious! :D

[afghooey]

Actually, your English isn't that bad. I haven't had any problems understanding your posts, which is more than I can say about some posts on these boards from people who actually speak English as their first language. ;)

Oh yeah, and I forgot to answer your question above: Nope, I wasn't high when I wrote it, but weed definitely contributed to that line of thought.